Soon...

Can't wait!

I'm drinking some purple kool aid now......

Artist's rendering of Iceman.

koolaidlarge.jpg

BHZA? Acronym? Pardon my ignorance.

JPOP is Jersey Jack right?

As far as I'm concerned, if they've got a NDA in place for the buyers and they can't say anything publicly, I see no reason to hype the thing publicly. It seems more like a marketing ploy. If they're going to make a machine, make it; if they're going to pre-sell a machine, pre-sell it and tell people what they're getting, but if I were a buyer, I would not take kindly to being forced to keep quiet about what I know.

Ben Heck's Zombie Adventure, designer John Popadiuk (Jpop).

Jersey Jack Pinball is JJP.

I have the same image on my computer as well...

I wouldn't compare WOZ to Magic Girl or BHZA. Apples and oranges. JJP is obviously serious about producing a machine; he's hired the most experienced team in the industry; he's subsidizing his development with his own money -- not customer pre-orders, and he's not been quiet about what they're doing and how far along they are. Plus, WOZ is $4k cheaper.

My impression is that JPop's people are making exclusive, boutique games for a few select people who have loads of cash and hope to get a game more as an investment than a player. I wish them luck, but making their customers sign a non-disclosure agreement is off to a bad start. It's like they don't trust anyone, even their own loyal customers. If you're going to make a great pinball game, there's no real reason to keep anything secret. Just make a great game. It's not like the other companies are spending much time worrying about each other. They're all doing their thing.

You talk as if JPop single-handedly produced TOTAN or ToM. That's just not true, and therein lies the serious problem with what he's proposing and probably why he's forced his customers to keep quiet: there's probably a lot of unknowns when it comes to how he can pump out an actual game when his "track record" of games is based on being one guy, part of a big team and a big company, resources that he doesn't appear to have available now. I hope he succeeds and I'm not trying to dis him, but the 800 pound elephant in the room is how does one dude make another CV when CV was made by 100+ people?

JPop didn't "make CV" alone. Cameron Silver did the software. Who's doing the software for his new games? Adam Rhine and Brian Morris did the great DMD animation. Who's doing the animation? What are these peoples' experience and references? Jack Skalon and Louis Toy were mechanical engineers on Circus Voltaire. The game's music was done by Rob Berry and Dave Zabriskie. Who's doing the music? The sounds? Does anyone know?

In contrast, JJP has been very open about who's on the WOZ design team, and it's a "who's who" of experienced industry pros who have done some of the best games around. Why is it such a secret who's on JPop's team?

Anyway, I wish JJP and his team lots of luck. I hope they do produce their games and they come out great, but I can't help but be slightly suspicious of the secretive nature of what they're doing. It's not like there's a pinball arms race going on.

I have to say, I take offense to this comment. Yes, one of the reasons I was willing to commit to the project is because I feel the game will probably hold its value in the long run. This, however, is hardly the only reason I jumped on board. In fact, it's not even the main reason. I happen to love JPop as a designer, and I truly believe BHZA will be one of the most fun and unique games ever made. It's not as if the pin will be sitting in a corner of my gameroom with a velvet rope around it. I plan on playing the crap out of it, and having an absolute blast while doing so.

Aside from taking offense at his characterization of a typical buyer (which I disagree with as well), how do you resolve the bulk of his post which raises very real and valid concerns around the manufacturing aspects of the games? As a potential buyer who chose not to proceed based on these exact concerns, I'm very interested the perspective of those who are in.

Overall, I tend to be pretty level headed when it comes to purchasing pins. For example, I happen to love MM, but I've never been able to justify its high price tag. In the case of BHZA, though, it was simply the right theme by the right designer at the right time. I love zombies! I love amusement parks, and Jpop is my favorite designer. He may not have the kind of resources behind him that JJP has, but he is a very intelligent and resourceful guy with a ton of connections in the pinball world.

Was it a completely rational decision to put down a deposit on one? Probably not. I am certainly not foolish enough to think that there is no risk involved. But sometimes you just gotta say what the f**k, and go for it. And it's not as if I had a lot of time to think about it. I knew if I didn't act fast, I would miss the boat. Plus, at this point I've essentially only risked $750. Once I see the welcome packet and have a better understanding of what JPop and his team are planning, I will then have to decide if I am all in.

+1 Well said

Actually that's not true. No one has more experience in the industry (that's still working in the industry) than Steve Ritchie. He's been around since forever and made countless hit games. Next is George Gomez. Joe balcier has hardly made very many successful games. Dennis Nordman is good but no way as experienced as Steve or George. Further, he's not working on WoZ. So your statement is false. As for software, I'd put Lyman Sheats above Keith but not far. Keith is definitely great. But your statement was "the most experienced". Wrong. Sounds like JJP hype

All true. However, Popadiuk was the lead designer. He created those games entirely in concept himself then made the cad designs and designed the whole game. His games all have a unique feel. He also has the software background to wrote the software on his own, should he choose to do so. In addition, it's not just him. He is the lead. There is assist from team heck and talent in his school etc.

By the way, it's interesting that you bring up "Steve Ritchie has the most experience in the industry.." I spent some time in Dallas with Steve. How well do you know him?

When the AC/DC pinball games showed up at TPF and everyone got them working, Steve would stop in to check to see how the games were doing. At one point part of the GI went out. Ken and Marcus and a few of the organizers were there trying to figure out what was wrong with the wiring on the machine. Steve Ritchie showed up and tried to help, but after a short period of time he said, "I just design these things -- you guys probably know more about what might be wrong than I." This notion that the "designer" of the game must know all the ins and outs is not necessarily true, and Steve himself admitted on several occasions he doesn't concern himself that much with the technical details of things - he let's others address that stuff. It's not about a single person -- it's about the team, and the "chief designer" doesn't mean the guy who "came up with everything" or the guy "who can do everything."

I contend right now, JJP has the best pinball development team in action, seconded by Stern. It's possible if Stern wasn't holding back the reigns of Gomez/Ritchie they might be able to accomplish more, but Gary Stern is the only guy who's managed to stay in business after everyone else folded, so he must be doing something right.

I'm a big fan of Ritchie and Gomez, but I think Keith Johnson blows them both away when it comes to software. That guy is a monster. And I'm a huge fan of P2K and I think Gomez's brilliance there is still largely unrecognized. All these guys are personal heroes of mine. And I'm a big fan of JPop and I own several of his games as well.

But it's no secret that JJP is letting his people off their leashes, and we know what they are capable of doing, and we know WOZ is going to be delivered. Stern is definitely stepping up their game but the first few rounds have been lackluster. I've played all the new games. Some are better than others but they aren't dramatically different/better. Do we know for sure WOZ will blow them all away? Obviously not since the game isn't out yet, but it's not a stretch think it's going to be a world-class game from what we've seen. It's obvious the game's quality and attention to detail is far beyond what Stern has done thus far.

Contrast this with what we know of JPop, which is virtually nothing. And to add insult to injury he's taken pre-orders for a second game before even producing a prototype of the first game. That's pretty intense.

So I bring this up and it "offends" people? Really? Really?

Hey, I don't blame you. If you have the money, go for it. If you've only put down a small amount, obviously the risk is negligible. But are you talking about BHZA or MG? Have the MG people plunked down more or most of their money? Am I the only person that thinks taking deposits on two advance games by a group who have yet to produce any machines yet, is slightly presumptuous? I'm just sayin'

I don't know why you'd be offended by someone's opinion. It's just an opinion.

As others have said, I've raised some basic points, like there's a difference between JPop, employee of Bally/WMS and JPop, guy with a web page who hangs out in Ben Heck's workshop on occasion.

All I am saying is... why the secrecy?

I do too.

What pinball software has JPop wrote? I don't show him as having any software credits on any pinball machine.

Do you think anyone who knows "software" can program anything?

You do realize that there are thousands of different types of software systems. A person who codes for say, an iPhone or an Applescript snippet, might not have any idea how to do assembly language on a pinball machine.

I'm a software engineer. And there are certain systems I can code on, and other systems I haven't a clue how to program. It is so weird that you guys who have put money down, aren't even asking basic questions about where your product is coming from. But don't be offended if some other of us ask a few questions.. we're curious.

Let me see if I can put this in an analogy some of you guys may understand...

Let's say... you need to do some major remodeling on your house. Your neighbor had their garage added onto by this large company called Bally/WMS. They did an awesome job and their project manager was this great guy named "John" that did a brilliant design. John was the general contractor on the job and the architect, but did he pour the slab? No that was his friends Bob and Tom, and did John do the framing? No that was ted. Did John do the electrical and the plumbing? No, but he supervised Rich and Mark. But hey John was in charge and it came out great so kudos to John!

So you decide you're going to have your place done and as luck would have it John is in the neighborhood looking for work, so you decide to hire him to build your addition. And you're so pleased with how great he did with your neighbor's place you're sure he'll do a good job with you. But don't you want to know who's pouring the slab? Who's doing the framing, roofing, electrical and plumbing? Oh, I see.. John's going to do all that himself because if he could be the project manager, he undoubtedly can do all those other jobs. Ok.. I see...

Well, I take offense at your offense... so there! ; )

Pinballhelp do I need to point out that the team you claim to be the best pinball developement team in the industry has not released a single pin yet? If that is your opinion I have no problem accepting it. On the same token you should have no problem with me pointing out that to date your opinion regarding their 'team' is baseless with nothing solid to back it up besides individual accomplishments. JJP has a strong team but to ignore or discount the substantial talent outside of their company is extremely short sighted.

That said, I have to agree that it is pretty crazy to think J Pop has taken preorders on a second pin without having so much as a prototype for the first one that he has taken pre orders on. That is a bit peculiar to say the least.

Great thread. Very interesting debate.

Dan

+1
I agree, nice read.

We talked to John a lot last year at the Seattle show and he has a wide variety of SW experience. This is one guy that has worked as a pinball tech, a SW programmer, a pinball designer, an artist. He is uniquely multi-skilled and also extremely creative and forward thinking. I'll say it again. He will not be building the whole machine entirely on his own. However, after talking with him, I am convinced he is fully capable of doing so, should he choose to. I also think he may have written the SW on the zizzle games. (Don't quote me on this because I don't remember why I think that).

I am also a SW engineer by trade. I write network drivers for a living in my "real job" and run an extremely popular iPhone site and have written dozens of iPhone apps. I have also written kernel level and application level code on a variety of different operating systems. I have never written pinball code, however, I can definitely conceive of how this would be done and believe I could do so. I would not be good at the art aspect of this, but I could definitely step up and write game code, given time to learn it, for any game that was being created. I have some information on how Popadiuk's development platform will work and cannot give it out here unfortunately. But needless to say, if you can code in any high level language, you could handle the job.

No, I don't need to know who is doing those menial tasks. John was the contractor and obviously knows how to be a good contractor. But in your analogy, John couldn't just be a contractor. He'd have to be an architect/contractor combined. So let's go with that. It's a contractor's job to farm out the menial tasks to folks that can do them. If he can do them, great. If not, he will figure out who can. Pouring slab isn't exactly the most complicated process. I don't go to new houses and admire the quality of the concrete work or foundation. If John, as a contractor, has "overseen" several jobs using multiple different teams and they all seem to have a uniqueness about them that is only seen in John's jobs, I would have confidence that I could hire only John and he'll handle my next project.

Popadiuk's games have all a unique feel to them that I have not seen anywhere else. They also all use multiple magnets. It's one of his trademarks. It's not the guy that installed the magnets or the guy that programmed the magnet to fire or not fire. It's the guy that did the design work. Obviously Popadiuk has a strong influence on the games he is working on otherwise they wouldn't all have a unique feel.

From the discussions I've had with him so far, it sounds like this game will have more going on that we haven't seen before than even WoZ. Let's say this game isn't so great, however. There are only 124 of them being made. It will be easy to sell to collectors without much loss if I dislike the game. So there is really very little risk. Finally, once we have our BHZA packets, we'll have an opportunity to back out and get a refund of our down payment. So I really don't see what the concern is.

Well I don't see how you can think that. The WoZ team, at least, is basically TSPP team. TSPP obviously had a huge budget. It has more toys than any game I can think of. But it's really not that fun.

Yea, they're not the SW guys. Lyman Sheats is. And personally, I don't think anyone, including Keith, beat Lyman. He's my favorite SW guy in this business hands down. Lyman: attack from mars, medieval madness, monster bash, spiderman, what an amazing list, not to mention tron, batman, ironman. Something about Lyman's rulesets are just fun.

As one in line for BHZA, I don't believe it's that big of a risk, or I wouldn't have put down the deposit. Our deposits are refundable and merely bought us a spot in line up to this point. The BHZA website provided me with more information than I recall the initial JJP buyers having when they started taking preorders, and let's face it, between Zombie Adventureland and the Wizard of Oz, the theme choice was a no brainer. JPop has a legacy to worry about so I don't expect anything short of what he's previously delivered. Key details are coming shortly, and at that point those of us who are in so far will weigh the info and decide whether or not to go forward. I expect to learn more about other people involved in creating the pin, a production schedule, etc., if not then I'll be hesitant to go forward. If some of the details are hush-hush, so be it, we already know more about the BHZA machine than we do the forthcoming Stern. In any case, it's nobody's real business except those who are buying BHZA.

This one is simple........There are no details because they have barely started the process. They sold an idea with a sketch and there is nothing wrong with that if people are "ok" with it, besides buyers only had to put down a deposit. The buyers of this pin will be waiting a longtime for this pin.............I say two years, but again, there is nothing wrong with that, if as a buyer, you understand it. Forget BHZA, what about those poor folk who bought into Magic Girl???? I personally think it was bad business to accept orders or discuss BHZA without delivering Magic Girl. As much as I love Jpop, this is just one big unproven experiment. That being said, there is no risk in this one..........Ben & John are not scam artists. If you think back when the JJP news broke, people jumped on them and look what they have created. WOZ looks to be a masterpiece.

Personally, I can smell what the PinballHelp is cookin' here. If I was someone preordering Magic Girl, I don't remember when Jpop put out the feelers for that, but I'm assuming it was at least a year ago.. Then I heard about this other thing that's getting a lot more chatter about it getting more preorders, I would want to see a little evidence that Magic Girl is still going on, at least a pic of a design, something, anything.

I'm not saying Jpop is a slouch by any means, WCS, TOTAN, and CV are some of the most wanted games by me, just that he may be stretching himself a little thin with all these projects. Here is an idea that may help him with game production that he may be rolling with though..

He's doing this pinball school at an unknown point in time, so with schooling in some scenarios, that's free labor while the students learn. My friend was taking an electrician class and the teacher brought in a dracula (not bram stoker) for the class to repair. Not that the teacher couldn't do it, but many hands make light work.

As for 'more an investment than a player', I guess I haven't played/seen enough Jpop LE's to make a decision on that. His track record on good games is pretty high, so I would have faith in that, but the almighty 'when?' would be looming in my mind. Is there a due date on any of these games? With only 25 or so games being made (Magic Girl), there's pretty much no doubt that the game will be worth 10k+ unless the game is entirely non functional, which I don't think will be the case at all.

Maybe I'm totally off base here, did the pre-orderers already get something but got some sort of legal caviat saying they can't talk about the games they ordered? That would be unfortunate, since everyone who DIDN'T preorder one didn't get that caviat and can say whatever they want, which some are taking offense to for some reason, probably having to do with their wallets.

Capcom? Gene ? take your pick. Maybe Gene recreated.

There is no non-disclosure with ZA . At least none mentioned yet. I am not expecting one either, too many people involved. Plus I think Jpop likes the hype with all of us talking about it.

Lots of great feedback, guys! I agree with this statement in particular and apologize if my post came across as critical of any decision. I was on-board with JJP day one, and it used to annoy the heck out of me that people were so skeptical of the decision. I was putting up hard-earned cash to support a new pinball venture and took it personal that anyone would be critical of that direction.

However, I agree with PinballHelp's assessment that JPOP and JJP are not comparable. Jack has built a pinball manufacturing company over the past year - not just a pinball game. It doesn't appear JPOP has that kind of scale in mind and perhaps he doesn't need it for a boutique run. JJP's transparency as the team builds WOZ has certainly educated me on just how hard it must be to build a machine, and very likely contributes to my hesitation with JPOP.

Further agree that $750 refundable is not much risk to hold a spot in line. Perhaps the questions about building the product are more appropriate after you guys have crossed from refundable deposit to non-refundable commitment.

Gad...this is great stuff!.....and I don't have a Zombie in this race!

I almost don't want to post this because I'd love to keep the momentum going but: this is one of the best threads that I've seen here at Pinside. Nice to see intelligent/articulate discussion on the pros and cons of ZA.

Hope to get my packet soon. Has anyone heard from JPop as to when we can expect the packet?

And no, there has been no indication that there will be a NDA for those who buy this pin.

This is a interesting debate here and I didn't even have time to get through the whole thing. I will just say this, I'm a big zombie theme fan but held off on this mostly because of the whole 2nd pin advanced deposit without a hint of the first game release thing. That just didn't sit well for me. Had I seen something of MG...just something, anything, I might have felt more comfortable making a commitment.

However, I can fully appreciate the strong defensive postures from those that did commit. If I was in that camp, I would be ready to string up anyone that had a negative notion toward this project, 10k worth of thunder coming at you. I'd be on pins and needles right now, looking for that MG prototype to be made public and hoping its spectacular.

I do hope its a success and JPOP is able to continue making pins and eventually larger production runs because, if so, there is a huge possibility that I may be on-board for a future project.

I prob should not put in my 2c. But what about skitb? He does not have a huge op like JJP? His predator looks like its coming along just fine. I have seen video in a basement? Im just happy that there are more teams trying to make pin's for us. Most of us are pin drug addicts. We cant get enough. We just want more and more. So everyone trying to put out a grate pin "I SOLUTE YOU". I wish the best to all of them. I have owned my own co for 6 years b4 I sold out. It takes a lot to put your rep on the line and in this hobby I can only imagine that failure is not an option for any of them. They all want to make the best pin ever made. Feel free to poke neg comments if they fail. Not when they are trying to live there dream....

The packets are being put together this week. Those who pre-ordered should be receiving them in the not-too-distant future.

Exactly, and I made that exact same point in another thread (or was it a PM discussion?). Anyway, yes, valid point....if the skitb guys can do it, so can JPop and Heck.

Thanks Jar!

I wasn't offended because you didn't agree with my decision to put down a deposit on a BHZA, but because you judged my motives for doing so, and painted me in a negative light in the process. Let's have another look at your comment:

Your comment was judgmental and rude. I don't see how it can be taken any other way.

Yes. All the people who pre-ordered a Magic Girl had to sign an NDA. I would venture to guess that not only is the project much further along than most people realize, but that the people who ordered one are very much in the loop.

I'm glad you brought this up. I have not been following the Predator project very closely. Has Skit-B fallen under the same kind of scrutiny as JPop, or are people willing to give them a little more latitude since they are pinheads?

Look.. 6S3NC3 hit the nail on the head here... all this chatter means is that pinball is on its biggest come back in along time!! Im excited about the industry in general, and thank god for Stern making it through when everyone else bounced. Look how many great games they pumped out! Whether you choose to invest your $ in JJP*WOZ or a new Stern*Avengers, a JPOP*BHZA, or SkitB*Predator all have the potential to be epic pins and compitition in any market place is a good thing for consumers! Hats off to all these companies and projects and best of luck and entertainment to all who support them! Cheers! "While sipping a bloody mary at the airport"

No but, he has shown many pics of the game from early on and several of the working white wood. I think that if JPOP were more disclosing in the design and progress on MG and BHZA, this argument would likely not be here. Also, 4k (I think) vs 10k.

Skit-b seems to be a lot more forthcoming with information. The game has been to a show and is playable, I've played it.

Of course I don't expect all companies to be this forthcoming, this is an experiment from a new company. Kevin appears to respond to every question that is asked about his machine so far, also he's accepted no down payments for his preorders.

I didn't know Jpop wasn't a pinhead? He's on the forums, and maybe isn't responding because he's working on the new machines. That is more than fine with everyone I'm sure.

Not that I have seen. Its not a secret like JPOP. They have produced a prototype and are taking our feedback into consideration. They have some great features on the game

Thank You!

I didn't mean to insinuate that JPop isn't a pinhead. I was merely wondering if people might be giving Skit-B a little more slack since they are perceived to be "just one of the guys". JPop, obviously brings with him a lot of experience behind the scenes in the pinball world, and with that comes greater expectations.

I think you missed this part PinballHelp.

My brother is a programmer / software engineer and he can learn anything to do with any code/language.

I understand what you mean. The Skit-B guys seem to be like if a bunch of us decided to make up a game. They are very approachable and answer everything...even including our suggestions for changes/additions in the game. How often does THAT happen??

See, there you again overgeneralizing and speaking for the masses. Just because it pisses YOU off, doesn't mean that it pisses everybody off. Plus, nobody actually forced you to read or participate in this thread. As far as us being "gagged", that's simply not true. At this point, we know nothing more than the rest of you. This is precisely why we are so excited about receiving the welcome packet.