(Topic ID: 287820)

Beware of Jonathan Demare / ASOA

By crwjumper

3 years ago


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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by robin
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    #351 3 years ago

    There was a guy on the west coast a year or so ago selling NIB Sterns for below dealer wholesale.
    He advertised on CL and a few other sites like that (even had ads on eBay before they got pulled).
    Not exactly sure what the deal there was, but he definitely had machines and was selling them for below dealer cost.
    I was told that Stern sent him a C&D among other threats and it pretty much put a stop to that.

    There were a bunch of rumors and speculation as to where the machines came from.
    One of the stories was that they were purchased from a Stern employee who got them at a discounted "employee rate".
    The other rumor was that they were from a distributor that went out of business.
    I have no idea what the real deal was, but it was sketchy as hell.

    #352 3 years ago
    Quoted from estrader:

    Not to mention these sound mostly nib which I would think would be more difficult to steal. The more I think about it the more it makes sense a stern distributor was involved, they got caught and Jonathan’s supply dried up.
    I don’t read Jonathan delivering any spooky or jjp games. Always switched them out for stern when people caught on.

    Yes and Yes.

    Bait and switch until he ran out of Sterns to switch to. Then it was bait and nothing. Bait and excuses.

    #353 3 years ago
    Quoted from youdontknowme:

    i'll let the whole cat out of this bag about your main source of machines

    So we’re on page 8 and still lots of speculation on where the machines are coming from. Why not just tell us what you know?

    -2
    #354 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I'll pay you 10 bucks if you can teach the class how one would "arbitrage" brand new pinball machines and sell them at "wholesale" price. Which part of the planet can you buy pinball machines at lower than dealer cost, and turn around and arbitrage them into big profits?
    "arbitrage" is a classic explanation used to settle down nervous ponzi scheme investors. The orignal Ponzi guy - Steve Ponzi or whatever his name was - claimed he was running an "arbitrage" model on stamps for pete's sake!

    Its a legal term you dont understand the meaning of.

    You buy something that is intended for another market (i.e. supposed to leave the country) that has different pricing at play.

    And or take advantage of exchange rates that are in your favor....

    This happens all the time people just dont bother to look.... next time you walk around a drugstore for example look at the labels on consumer goods.

    Anytime you see labels with french or Portuguese etc that is product intended for another market (Canada, South America) that came back here because it was cheaper to buy it there.

    Easiest example is prescription drugs.... a pill that is $5 here due to our fucked up system could easily be 50 cents in another market.

    I am not saying this is what happened here but its more likely then they were all stolen.

    Another term for it and definition- Parallel trade refers to the resale of goods between countries without the authorization of the owner of the intellectual property (IP) rights associated with those goods. It is a response to international price discrimination, whereby an identical product is sold at different prices in different countries.

    #355 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    He was the single biggest shill for the fake 2019 ASOA Alien remake that was the centerpiece of this entire scam. He's an enthusiastic guy, and always wants people to throw their money where he's throwing his; I would guess that's the extent of it.

    Does that make him any different then when Hilton was chest pounding for Predator?

    #356 3 years ago
    Quoted from PinRob:

    The picture is a joke

    Actually, that picture is NOT a joke. That is him. 100%. Wish it was a joke.

    #357 3 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    This is my favorite quote of this whole thread...

    I preferred this one but it's a coin toss either way.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    this shit was like Pinstadium level of jerking off of a vendor.

    #358 3 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    After 10 months of bickering with JD, I convinced him to at least deliver me a game (AIQ Pro).

    This was the right thing to do Steve. You would have most likely not have gotten anything. Make a deal, get what you can, while you can. This guy will crash and burn and that will be the end of the money trail....

    #359 3 years ago
    Quoted from PinballSTAR:

    Wrong - for every company I represent.

    You know what deals and pricing the largest distribs have direct with the companies?

    If so someone has likely violated their agreements with them.

    11
    #360 3 years ago

    I’ll add my story. I bought a lightly used Star Wars LE from him. Paid in full. After JD received my money he said the main board died and he was waiting for stern to replace it. After a bit he offered me a NIB Premium because he wasn’t sure how long it would take. I was getting suspicious and worried the warranty would be void and I’d be getting a brick, so I took the premium. He was supposed to refund like $1600. I never got it after a few months of asking. I kinda burned out and gave up. At least I got the game.

    #361 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    Its a legal term you dont understand the meaning of.
    You buy something that is intended for another market (i.e. supposed to leave the country) that has different pricing at play.
    And or take advantage of exchange rates that are in your favor....
    This happens all the time people just dont bother to look.... next time you walk around a drugstore for example look at the labels on consumer goods.
    Anytime you see labels with french or Portuguese etc that is product intended for another market (Canada, South America) that came back here because it was cheaper to buy it there.
    Easiest example is prescription drugs.... a pill that is $5 here due to our fucked up system could easily be 50 cents in another market.
    I am not saying this is what happened here but its more likely then they were all stolen.
    Another term for it and definition- Parallel trade refers to the resale of goods between countries without the authorization of the owner of the intellectual property (IP) rights associated with those goods. It is a response to international price discrimination, whereby an identical product is sold at different prices in different countries.

    Ok. Well, then class is in session!

    Would you mind explaining (pretend I'm 10 years old and have no knowledge of the pinball market) how someone could employ the legal term of arbitrage in pinball to legally (or hell, illegally) make a profit selling pinball machines at apparent discount pricing to an audience who knows what these are "supposed" to cost?

    Like, just give me a hypothetical example or two so I can wrap my head around it. Like...is he selling a Canadian Stern pro that costs like $9,000 in loonies up there and then somehow pockets the difference by selling it to Florida man for $4,500?

    #362 3 years ago
    Quoted from whthrs166:

    This was the right thing to do Steve. You would have most likely not have gotten anything. Make a deal, get what you can, while you can. This guy will crash and burn and that will be the end of the money trail....

    Thank you. No doubt in my mind it was the best solution given the cards I was dealt. After talking to nearly everyone connected with Spooky, I was convinced he didn't have a game (though he disputes that to this day).

    After waiting 4 months for JD to deliver a Stern Premium, it became clear he was only able to obtain Pro's, so I lowered the bar yet again. When I received the AIQ Pro, I was relieved to finally put this saga behind me. Sure, it wasn't R&M, but it was a fun game that allowed me to recoup ~80% of my money.

    IMG_2491 (resized).jpegIMG_2491 (resized).jpeg
    #363 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Much like Charles Ponzi, who lost money on his original "arbitrage" investors, you could be right here. Sell a bunch of games without making much if any of a profit, quickly generate good feedback, and then go in for the kill with your imaginary 2019 Alien, as well as Lebowskis, RMs, and anything else that doesn't exist. It fits the model for the Ponzi scheme, you need some satisfied customers early on to make it work.

    Maybe he was even in cahoots with a authorized Stern dealer who provided him the "regular" machines and was greasing them too with a few hundo of what was "pre-paid" for all of the high end remakes,JJP's,R&M's,Spookys ??

    Amateur theorist and old Columbo fan )

    Columbo (resized).jpgColumbo (resized).jpg
    #364 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Ok. Well, then class is in session!
    Would you mind explaining (pretend I'm 10 years old and have no knowledge of the pinball market) how someone could employ the legal term of arbitrage in pinball to legally (or hell, illegally) make a profit selling pinball machines at discount pricing?
    Like, just give me a hypothetical example or two so I can wrap my head around it. Like...is he selling a Canadian Stern pro that costs like $9,000 in loonies up there and then somehow pockets the difference by selling it to Florida man for $4,500?

    All you gotta do is find a market where the games are priced differently in your favor or the exchange rate makes it so.

    Can easily pocket a good percentage... again I am not saying this is what is going on but its feasible at least.

    Also a shift in exchange rate could explain why it doesnt work anymore and the flow of games stopped.

    Look at the euro to US dollar exchange rate since 2008 with huge swings both ways... 20% in either direction can and does happen.

    26
    #365 3 years ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    Thank you. No doubt in my mind it was the best solution given the cards I was dealt. After talking to nearly everyone connected with Spooky, I was convinced he didn't have a game (though he disputes that to this day).
    After waiting 4 months for JD to deliver a Stern Premium, it became clear he was only able to obtain Pro's, so I lowered the bar yet again. When I received the AIQ Pro, I was relieved to finally put this saga behind me. Sure, it wasn't R&M, but it was a fun game that allowed me to recoup ~80% of my money.[quoted image]

    He could have at least given you all 4 legs, jeez this guy..

    #366 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    All you gotta do is find a market where the games are priced differently in your favor or the exchange rate makes it so

    Explain how this works with pinball machines, which are big and heavy and cost a lot to ship between markets. Also Stern locking out machines based on mains voltage?

    We know what arbitrage is.

    #367 3 years ago
    Quoted from paynemic:

    I’ll add my story. I bought a lightly used Star Wars LE from him. Paid in full. After JD received my money he said the main board died and he was waiting for stern to replace it. After a bit he offered me a NIB Premium because he wasn’t sure how long it would take. I was getting suspicious and worried the warranty would be void and I’d be getting a brick, so I took the premium. He was supposed to refund like $1600. I never got it after a few months of asking. I kinda burned out and gave up. At least I got the game.

    Quoted from snaroff:

    Thank you. No doubt in my mind it was the best solution given the cards I was dealt. After talking to nearly everyone connected with Spooky, I was convinced he didn't have a game (though he disputes that to this day).
    After waiting 4 months for JD to deliver a Stern Premium, it became clear he was only able to obtain Pro's, so I lowered the bar yet again. When I received the AIQ Pro, I was relieved to finally put this saga behind me. Sure, it wasn't R&M, but it was a fun game that allowed me to recoup ~80% of my money.[quoted image]

    The similarities in so many of these stories are eerily similar. He gives just enough to keep people from making a big deal about it. After the headaches and aggravation, it’s not worth pursuing for a lot of people. I’d do the same thing as you both did. I understand just wanting to put it behind you.

    #368 3 years ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    Explain how this works with pinball machines, which are big and heavy and cost a lot to ship between markets. Also Stern locking out machines based on mains voltage?
    We know what arbitrage is.

    This isnt my job is it?

    Just an idea that I know is around in every other business that deals globally

    Ill let you all figure it out. Maybe they didnt leave the country and fell out of the container on their way?

    Also not all countries use different voltage.... mexico for one.

    12
    #369 3 years ago

    There is no scenario where this works on a reimport type situation and currency fluctuations.
    Pinball machines cost more overseas than they do here.
    Even currency fluctuations won't outperform the disparity in price between foreign and domestic sales (ask any of our foreign members about that).

    If there is a scenario where the machines are bought at a discount, it is strictly domestic and has nothing to do with reimportation.
    We're not talking about buying $5 Zpacks at a Mexican pharmacy.

    #370 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    This isnt my job is it?

    Ha no, it isn't.

    But like I said before when I only thought I knew what arbitrage was, I didn't see a way to pull this off. In deficit of any evidence / theory that shows that his could actually happen somehow I'm gonna stick with my original belief that it's impossible or earn profits on pinball machines this way.

    There's only two explanations that make sense if indeed he was really selling games below normal distributor prices: The games were stolen, or he was willing to make zero money on a first "deal" or two to build up confidence for the 2019 Alien Scam and beyond. I'd love to know what "wholesale pricing" meant in regard to an ASOA deal.

    #371 3 years ago

    Johnathan Demare
    Silence of the Ponzi

    10
    #372 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    There's only two explanations that make sense if indeed he was really selling games below normal distributor prices: The games were stolen, or he was willing to make zero money on a first "deal" or two to build up confidence for the 2019 Alien Scam and beyond.

    Naw, 3rd possibility is he made more money by shorting people like snaroff than he lost by selling below market. Hook 'em with a good deal then take 'em for more down the road. Might not have just been to prep for Alien scam.

    13
    #373 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    You know what deals and pricing the largest distribs have direct with the companies?
    If so someone has likely violated their agreements with them.

    There are no 'deals' everyone pays the same... I'm one of the largest distributors for most all my companies and it's all the same - buy 100 or 5... doesn't matter... I can only add what I know - not saying I know everything... as I don't represent every company.

    #374 3 years ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    Naw, 3rd possibility is he made more money by shorting people like snaroff than he lost by selling below market. Hook 'em with a good deal then take 'em for more down the road. Might not have just been to prep for Alien scam.

    This could be.... only others that make sense

    1. working with a large distrib that has "better pricing" for volume and just wants to move goods. If they make 2% fine.

    2. Some form of parallel trade

    #375 3 years ago

    Well, he sold my game twice, so, there’s that.

    #376 3 years ago
    Quoted from PinballSTAR:

    There are no 'deals' everyone pays the same... I'm one of the largest distributors for most all my companies and it's all the same - buy 100 or 5... doesn't matter... I can only add what I know - not saying I know everything... as I don't represent every company.

    I believe you 100% just not sure you can speak to their agreements with any other companies.

    I know in any other business model for distribution the more volume you can do the better pricing and or terms they are going to give you.

    #377 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Ha no, it isn't.
    But like I said before when I only thought I knew what arbitrage was, I didn't see a way to pull this off. In deficit of any evidence / theory that shows that his could actually happen somehow I'm gonna stick with my original belief that it's impossible or earn profits on pinball machines this way.
    There's only two explanations that make sense if indeed he was really selling games below normal distributor prices: The games were stolen, or he was willing to make zero money on a first "deal" or two to build up confidence for the 2019 Alien Scam and beyond. I'd love to know what "wholesale pricing" meant in regard to an ASOA deal.

    It took me all of 2 seconds to find an example of someone doing it from US to europe.

    Its an old example but there is a way since this dude did it.

    And JJP did the smart thing and brought him on legit to stop him from doing it.

    https://www.pinballnews.com/games/wizardofoz/index21.html

    #378 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    It took me all of 2 seconds to find an example of someone doing it from US to europe.
    Its an old example but there is a way since this dude did it.
    And JJP did the smart thing and brought him on legit to stop him from doing it.
    https://www.pinballnews.com/games/wizardofoz/index21.html

    Hey I thought I was on my own!!!!!
    Thanks for the example. ASOA doesn't seem that resourceful.

    #379 3 years ago
    Quoted from Coindork:

    There is no scenario where this works on a reimport type situation and currency fluctuations.
    Pinball machines cost more overseas than they do here.
    Even currency fluctuations won't outperform the disparity in price between foreign and domestic sales (ask any of our foreign members about that).
    If there is a scenario where the machines are bought at a discount, it is strictly domestic and has nothing to do with reimportation.
    We're not talking about buying $5 Zpacks at a Mexican pharmacy.

    I think everyone is over thinking how he sells games so cheaply. Hes probably buying them at fmv and losing money on them. It's worth losing 2-3k on a pin if the return is the buyer then gives you 15k which you pocket.

    #381 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Hey I thought I was on my own!!!!!
    Thanks for the example. ASOA doesn't seem that resourceful.

    He does to me... look at the web of bullshit he pulled off.

    #382 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Regardless, it's mind-blowing how long he was able to keep this quiet.

    This is the part that keeps me coming back for more, this story line! Pinball is a small community, I cant imagine anyone screwing someone more than once, let alone multiple times! This damn guy has David Koresh level manipulation skills.

    #383 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    Its a legal term you dont understand the meaning of.
    You buy something that is intended for another market (i.e. supposed to leave the country) that has different pricing at play.
    And or take advantage of exchange rates that are in your favor....
    This happens all the time people just dont bother to look.... next time you walk around a drugstore for example look at the labels on consumer goods.
    Anytime you see labels with french or Portuguese etc that is product intended for another market (Canada, South America) that came back here because it was cheaper to buy it there.
    Easiest example is prescription drugs.... a pill that is $5 here due to our fucked up system could easily be 50 cents in another market.
    I am not saying this is what happened here but its more likely then they were all stolen.
    Another term for it and definition- Parallel trade refers to the resale of goods between countries without the authorization of the owner of the intellectual property (IP) rights associated with those goods. It is a response to international price discrimination, whereby an identical product is sold at different prices in different countries.

    wtf? Why did you write all this and on what planet does it pertain to anything?

    #384 3 years ago
    Quoted from jandrea95:

    This is the part that keeps me coming back for more, this story line! Pinball is a small community, I cant imagine anyone screwing someone more than once, let alone multiple times! This damn guy has David Koresh level manipulation skills.

    It appears that a number of the victims are wealthy enough to just give up and no longer care about the loss of 1-2k. As long as they got something, such as a lower model. It was satisfactory enough for some, so they chose not to pursue any legal route. So as a result, it just went mostly undetected. For years! Not saying I can blame any of them for taking what they could get, but it's too bad it was just enough to leave it be.

    Plus there are also users who knew something but just stayed quiet. All for the sake of getting a fucking deal or possibly a cut. I thought the arcade hobby was bad, but man there is some real scum lurking around in this hobby.

    #385 3 years ago

    It's my understanding that he was a the type of seller that sells only to retail locations like arcades and amusement parks... not to the home use crowd, and was buying them from pinball dealers with that agreement.

    So, buying games under the impression that they were being sold and/or placed into locations.. arcades, bars, etc., and then redirecting them into the home use market. There was a point where he had a bunch of open box games with no plays on them that were being sold for a discount.

    #386 3 years ago

    At this point, I would be thrilled if a JP Pro showed up in the next few weeks after being screwed on my premium order for 16 months.

    But it’s almost February 16. Can’t wait for my promised email tomorrow to see what he has planned for my “refund.”

    #387 3 years ago

    “I kinda burned out and gave up”

    #388 3 years ago

    Many thanks to Cosmokramer for posting a link to this thread in the, Best of: Pinside Threads.

    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/beware-of-jonathan-demare-asoa
    Didnt think this would qualify at first, until a possibly irritated Ice takes an upopular stand late in the game..

    #389 3 years ago
    Quoted from Cobray:

    It's my understanding that he was a the type of seller that sells only to retail locations like arcades and amusement parks... not to the home use crowd, and was buying them from pinball dealers with that agreement.
    So, buying games under the impression that they were being sold and/or placed into locations.. arcades, bars, etc., and then redirecting them into the home use market. There was a point where he had a bunch of open box games with no plays on them that were being sold for a discount.

    Ooooh thats an interesting one.

    #390 3 years ago
    Quoted from jandrea95:

    wtf? Why did you write all this and on what planet does it pertain to anything?

    lol... I wouldn't worry about it.

    #391 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    lol... I wouldn't worry about it.

    I'm man enough to admit its probably way over my head anyways.

    #392 3 years ago
    Quoted from Cobray:

    It's my understanding that he was a the type of seller that sells only to retail locations like arcades and amusement parks... not to the home use crowd, and was buying them from pinball dealers with that agreement.
    So, buying games under the impression that they were being sold and/or placed into locations.. arcades, bars, etc., and then redirecting them into the home use market. There was a point where he had a bunch of open box games with no plays on them that were being sold for a discount.

    So basically he was stealing games from route ops then, under this theory? Or are we back to the "he was buying them at a discount supposedly for Wally World but then selling them to Pinsiders at a profit?"

    I just can't believe pinball home buyers were the only people he was stealing from. At some point, he had to be dealing in gray/black market pins and stealing from someone else. You gotta steal from as many people as possible to really make this work out.

    #393 3 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    Johnathan Demare
    Silence of the Ponzi

    Bernie Madoff of pinball?

    #395 3 years ago
    Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

    Bernie Madoff of pinball?

    Bernie Made off with my money

    #396 3 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    So basically he was stealing games from route ops then, under this theory? Or are we back to the "he was buying them at a discount supposedly for Wally World but then selling them to Pinsiders at a profit?"
    I just can't believe pinball home buyers were the only people he was stealing from. At some point, he had to be dealing in gray/black market pins and stealing from someone else. You gotta steal from as many people as possible to really make this work out.

    Not stealing from ops... buying them at a heavy discount for OPS as the middle-man then selling to home users... or opening up the box, setting up the game, and selling it as "used". There were several threads where open box games with like 5 plays on them were up for sale if you recall..

    #397 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    All you gotta do is find a market where the games are priced differently in your favor or the exchange rate makes it so.
    Can easily pocket a good percentage... again I am not saying this is what is going on but its feasible at least.
    Also a shift in exchange rate could explain why it doesnt work anymore and the flow of games stopped.
    Look at the euro to US dollar exchange rate since 2008 with huge swings both ways... 20% in either direction can and does happen.

    Except the us is the cheapest market for pins... by far
    And shipping eats any such swing margins up...
    And you can’t time pinball buys to the market rates when the lead times can be months

    Grey market selling works great like that when you are in the expensive market... not the other way around..

    #398 3 years ago
    Quoted from PinRob:

    I doubt this is a stolen pinball machine operation.

    Yeah but a list of serial numbers and cooperation from the manufacturers would go a long long way to flushing this dirt out

    #399 3 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Except the us is the cheapest market for pins... by far

    cheaper then mexico and south america?

    they arent exactly far from Florida where this was all going on.

    #400 3 years ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    cheaper then mexico and south america?

    Yes

    There are 441 posts in this topic. You are on page 8 of 9.

    This topic is closed.

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