You were 100% right to not enter into a deal with this guy.

This is why I never sell my machines

LOL

As always now we all have to completely reverse our previous condemnations of the seller.

Look...as a buyer, if I showed up to a place and was denied the chance to test a game, I'd leave.

As a seller, if I saw an obnoxious seller like this making ridiculous demands on me in advance, I'd immediately cancel the deal.

So in other words...they were both right. Just like in every pinball "bad seller/bad buyer" deal.

Always better to hear both sides of every story.

Two sides to everything. Thanks for posting.

I was just telling someone that often people post with a complaint and leave out details to make themselves look better. This is one of those times.

Havent taken a side in this, but to alleviate some confusion, perhaps you should have brought the machine back to your shop or residence where it is warm and allowed him to come get it there.
I agree jumping to lawyer talk,paypal protection and bad feedback was the wrong move.
In my opinion both guys could have made better choices.

Lmao. I say touché my good man. Well played.

nevermind, reading comprehension fail on my part

If you called eBay and let them read the messages (assuming they were in the eBay system), tell them it was never paid for or even looked at prior to the negative feedback, someone reasonable might remove it. If it means anything to ya.

Im sure you will find a different buyer. requests seemed extreme.

the negative ebay feedback seemed really extreme and I would call them to correct as stated.

agreed it could have been handled better by both parties,

turned into a disaster

So if the pin wasn't 100% working when he got it home, would you refund/discount? You said it was 100% working. Would we blame it on how the buyer handled the moving of the game? Having the pin tested at your site benefits both of you.

props to ya, the guy started a total bash thread and the whole time i was thinking: dude, its his machine, he can do what he wants with it, if he doesnt feel comfortable selling it to you he doesnt have to.

of course i avoided posting that because it is a total thumbs down fest for anyone who disagreed with op.

You expected that it was going to be a local pick up, so why did you not not keep the game for a few more days in a location that had heat and electricity?

Because something was not working properly

The real question is why is this any of our business?

It's a deal that never happened, and there are obviously a million reasons for that. Bringing this particular non-deal into this forum makes no sense, for either the buyer or seller.

In the other thread, I told a boring story about buying my first machine on eBay. What I left out was the fact that before ever bidding, I contacted the seller and told him I was about 6 hours away and made sure it was ok if I tested the machine before taking possession, should I win the auction.

That's something the buyer could've done. Maybe he assumed the machine would still be set up when he went to pick it up due to the fact that the seller mentioned in the ad that "You are welcome to come see and play before bidding" (emphasis mine). Also, if these are in fact the messages the buyer sent, the tone is definitely aggressive, if not confrontational, from the beginning.

The only thing I think the seller could have done differently is keep the machine set up to play until the buyer picks it up, but the seller may have reasons for not doing so.

Could any of this lunacy been avoided with a "Machine is sold as is" in the ebay listing? heh

I have a small 2000watt Honda generator I bring with me when I look at pinball machines in storage facilities. 100% of MY experiences have been that the seller has grossly inflated the actual condition. I know what to expect most times when I see the expression of the sellers face when I pull out the generator. Looks of despair = F'd up machines
BUT I've never had a seller refuse to allow me to test the pin, that's just ridicules

We don't know that and we don't know that because the seller placed the pin in a location with no heat or electricity. I would have loved to see the face of a buyer of one of my pins if I told him "no, you can't turn it on. Get it out of here and best of luck"

what really bothers me is in the first few messages of communication AFTER THE AUCTION the buyer states this

lease be sure that everything is working 100% as I will personally go through the entire machine and run through all of the system tests

followed by

If it isn't working 100%, I am confident you understand that we'll need to deduct the non working items from the price.”

now in a game with a service tech, you can almost always find a issue with a game when you FULLY explore it.

I am not saying THE GAME will not be 100 percent working but the parts on these games are ALL USED!

such as
scratched plastics, used rubbers, weak flippers, weak coils,
some people do take advantage of that and try to discount FOR NEW PARTS or upgraded parts even tho the old ones are still operable.

The fact the buyer started bringing it up BEFORE he has even seen the game bothers me.

hi all-he's a few ebay tips..your add must be clear on price,testing ,pick-up or delivery..ham bone move number one..not emailing selling making clear plan to test before you bid.. ham bone move two..moving machine to storage..these two moves left 1000 miles of conjecture for future problems out of the gate for this entire deal

Best....twin thread...EVER...

Never would have had any complaints or problems if you had sold the game on pinside.

That's how perception plays into this in a huge way.

As a seller, I've had the opposite - the buyer comes to look at a used machine described as working.

'Hmm, these flippers are a little weak. A rebuild kit is $60, and my tech charges $100 to install it. I know we agreed upon $1500, but will you take $1300 since I have to have my tech come out and rebuild the flippers?'

'This slingshot plastic has a tiny chip in it (yeah, did you look at the pictures???). A new set plastic set is $200, will you split it with me?'

All the while, telling another buyer that someone had agreed to buy the game, and giving that buyer time to go buy another game, instead of mine, because somebody said they wanted it.

That's a little extreme, but both have happened. And from talking to other sellers, I'm not alone. And one of the two times, after the guy walked because I wouldn't come off a game $200 for flippers that are 'a little weak', I e-mailled the 2nd guy, who showed up 6 hours later with cash, looked the game over, loaded it and left with it - and then bought 3 more games from me over the next few years.

Well you are a pinsider and you accurately describe your machines because you know how to describe condition. The sellers I have met a storage facilities are craigslisters. I have never been disappointed by a pinsider yet......
edit: I have never been disappointed by a pinsider's used pinball condition description on a machine I have purchased

Two questions; did the auction state that the pin was 100% functioning, and did it state that the winning bidder wouldn't have the opportunity to test the pin before taking ownership? If yes to the first one, and no on the second one, you screwed up.

I agree that he may have been "aggressive" with his replies and underhanded with his negative feedback, but I agree with the winning bidder. Unless stated otherwise he should have the right to test the machine.

Tony, I am glad you found the thread! Hit me up when you are back up this way.

It said 100% working and play before you bid. The pin was moved to storage before the auction ended so even when the seller said come play before you bid was completely impossible.

If you moved the machine, and you haven't powered it up since the move, you are NOT 100% sure it's fully working. We all know this.

I keep thinking how much would the game have fetched if the ad had not have said "game working 100%", probably less?

Less than perfect seller and less than perfect buyer. The buyer pushing for what he could get for the game and a buyer trying to exploiting the situation a bit back to his favor.

I don't know which, but I will still deal with either of you, but thanks for forewarning me about your selves in case we do have future business.

Here's the listing:

ebay.com link: 1996 SEGA TWISTER PINBALL MACHINE

The body reads:

'If picking up in person this item MUST be payed for in cash at pickup.....NO EXCEPTIONS!This is a real nice Twister Pinball machine that works 100% with no errors.This game is probably one of Sega's best pinball machine's and highly underrated!The cabinet is nice and solid with only a little wear by the flipper buttons.The play field is still glossy with some normal wear around the spinning disk.The top fan and all magnets work properly.All play field lighting works as it should with quite a few super bright led's added throughout the game.This pinball has the latest Rom installed and has a brand new DMD display,The board set is the Sega White Star design and are ALL original with the Sega tags still in place.This game plays SUPER FAST and probably has one of the BEST multiball features in pinball.This machine looks much better in person due to my lack of picture taking skills.....You are welcome to come see and play before bidding.

On Feb-16-15 at 14:40:19 PST, seller added the following information:

Shipping is not free of course.I will assist a shipper of your choice and you are responsible for payment to them.I used North American Van Lines in the past for shipping pins without any problems.Look them up on the web.'

If the buyer really said this, it's a huge red flag; that's not how it works. When you bid on an auction, your bid IS the agreed-upon price, based on the description. Now if the machine was listed as 100% working but it turns out this is not true, then the machine was not as described and the buyer has the right to cancel and get a refund, and leave appropriate feedback.

By cancelling, the seller simply saved them both time and money and if the deal had gone through, we would probably be reading the same dueling threads, both complaining about how they were ripped off by the other.

Not to prolong the agony of these threads, but if the buyer is entitled to pull out the "legally binding card", so is the seller. The buyer has agreed to purchase the item at the agreed upon price. Period. End of of story.

It is not a case of "I agreed to start the negotiations at the winning bid price and nickel and dime the final price based on how far I can push you". The terms are quite specific. The seller agreed to sell the item at the price the buyer agreed to pay. Period. If the item is not as described, the transaction can be voided and both parties walk away, as it was in this case. There is no provision for the buyer to offer less because they think the description is incorrect. That is for Craigslist transactions.

ken

Any machines I have purchased have never been working 100% as stated by seller. This term should be taken just like the term HUO, its almost never the case.

He had the right to test the machine...off the seller's property and on his own time. He added all his other requirements AFTER the auction was over. Did he ever provide the seller due diligence regarding all of his testing requirements?

I think a better way for this to have gone down would be for the seller to have allowed the buyer to test the game, then if there is a dispute over price to cancel the transaction. Based on the bidders language, I see red flags too, but I wouldn't want to buy a game I couldn't try out either.

So you weren't gonna let him test the machine?? Gotta say as a buyer that would be a red flag.

Don't worry about the "legal binding agreement" garbage. Worst thing he can do is give neg feedback. make sure you get your fees back. File a cancellation order and claim the item doesn't work.

I didn't see anything about putting the game in cold storage. Just Cash at pickup no exceptions.

If the buyer said all that and the seller said what was stated in the other thread...they are both nuts.

Not really true from a legal point of view. It is a legally binding contract once all the terms of the sale have been met. If the seller stated working condition, he is obligated to prove working condition after the auction ends regardless of what is stated before or during the auction. If the seller states, as is, where is, with no guarantees written or implied(like all live auctions state) and ALSO states working condition, the working condition is still a term of the sale and must be met. At a live auction, the auctioneer is very careful not to state anything that they know isn't true or can't be confirmed at that instant. Ebay sellers don't understand this very well and also claim ebay sides with the buyers but normally are siding with the correct side of the law.

The only thing that could make this better is a third thread that had a poll on who do you think is more in the right, buyer or seller...lol

pics on ebay appear that the game is ALREADY in cold storage. Anywhere in the midwest with a non-insulated garage door is unheated to proper temps for pinball, esp this past few weeks.

Sounds to me like the seller was pretty shady to begin with and just using the excuse of moving to cold storage as a way to not have a buyer check things out.

Buyer definately came out with guns blazing.

I think the real thing here is that you both dodged a bullet and should be happy about it.

Agreed. It is usually a stroke of luck to buy one without finding at least one electrical or mechanical issue. Hell, they come out of the box brand new sometimes not working. Now there is something to be a little bent out of shape about! Anything used, good luck.

I'm a fair guy to deal with, I make a point of it.

I wouldn't have bought the game without being able to power it up.

Suppose you posted up a thread on here that you bought a pinball game without powering it up and it didn't work when you got it home. And you explained that the seller said it was too cold to power it up.

Everyone on the entire pinside website would be laughing at you and saying that you were a fool for not seeing the game powered up and playing few games.

I'm not saying the seller is a bad guy, I'm just saying his idea of not powering the game up is not a practical way to sell a pinball machine. I think most people would just walk away from the sale. I would have walked.

The best solution would have been to put the game in a heated room for a day or two and then completed the sale. Then everyone would have been happy.

The idea that you just have to trust any random seller is absurd.

Is starting a pinball machine in cold weather really that bad of a thing? I'm new to this, and although I haven't done it, I'm curious.

No people generally just dont do it. The only time its a problem is when its been on long enough to cause condensation on the boards. THATS IT!

I don't think powering up a game in a garage is gonna hurt it, realistically

You don't want a quick sudden temp change - like taking it out of a freezing car into a sauna and flipping the switch.

If it's sitting in a garage, or a storage unit, and it's been in there for awhile, you won't hurt it by turning it on.

When I first bring one inside, if it's a significant temp change, I do open the game up - pull the backglass, pull the playfield glass, lift the playfield, and allow it to acclimate for a few hours.

And that's exactly what the seller offered to do, just walk away from the sale...and the buyer wouldn't agree to that.