Hmmm....looked it up but no machine i can find *shrug*

Hint..You need to feel the power of the wind…

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Nope, sorry, tilt, you lose.

You really can't go wrong imo. So many great games in this era.

I really wish a pinball company would come along and make SS games without LCD screens and stuff like that. I think a place would make a killing by selling these games for 4k and I'd absolutely buy them. Someone out there calculated that you can mass produce new SS games around 1500-2000 each, so the margins would be perfect.

Come on someone, get on that!

Without getting completely sidetracked...

The theme, sounds, lighting, and the big LCD screen are what attracts casuals to pinball machines out in the wild these days. Stick ANY solid state next to an TAF, and see which one earns better. Stick an TAF next to a Deadpool, and see which one earns better.

Don't get me wrong, I love ss games, but they are already a niche within the entire pinball world, which is pretty niche itself. I don't exactly see kids (or adults) these days lining up to pump quarters into a repro Frontier, EBD, FP, etc.

That said, while you'd think older games would be simpler under the hood, the reality as you know is that they are FILLED with wire, boards, and mechs, even if the playfield looks "simple". Now if you instead re-engineer the workings to modernize the classics, I suppose the BOM could be reduced enough with modern electronics to reduce the cost of manufacture down, but then you'd have the costs of the re-engineering. How much do you think it costs to build one of the new repro Fathoms?

It's a dream of many of ours, but I just don't see it ever happening at 4k.

You're talking about earnings and I don't disagree with you, I was thinking of it in terms of home ownership.

Maybe I'm too naive, but I figured there was a good market for private party sales.

Depends on the title. You can pretty much do anything if you put your mind to it and build it yourself. Mass producing them on an assembly line? Waste of time if your goal is to make as much good modern pinball and money as possible...

Back on topic. For the love of baby Jesus, don't buy a Catacomb as suggested above. That game is torture to play. I'd rather drill a hole in my fingernail.

Stars, Harlem Globetrotters, and Firewpower are all easy to find and a good bet. Great common games that are hard to get tired of.

Favorites from my collection: EBD and Space Shuttle. Both are very fun for me. The sounds are great, too, and both really look good with LED's.

I have been saying for a few years if some start up made a more or less direct remake it would be a license to print money.

Take Fathom and run off 1000 copies with only a few modern touches like plain LED displays (which would actually lower the cost) and you would smoke every single one out the door.

For investment, KISS is your machine.

A theme and machine that is already a top tier collectable, and will only get more valuable in time.

For game play, nostalgia and recognition (every real pinball player would appreciate you having such an iconic machine),

Eight Ball Deluxe.

Note, machines of this age are requiring a LOT of work to be properly refurbished (connectors!), so whoever you get your machine from, make SURE that they have done a full technical restoration, that all the connector and recommended board fixes on the Pinwiki have been done. I love machines of this era, but getting them reliably working is a very challenging and time consuming thing!

Completely disagree... all the pricing is laid out right on this page below. There is no way in HELL they will sell 1,000 of these. If they actually MAKE and sell 200 of them to basically break even, I would still be shocked. If they turn a profit when they release their 5th game 5 years from now... now THAT could be possible! I can think of 10 other easier ways to make money if someone game me a 2 million dollar budget and 5 years.

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/haggis-pinball-announces-fathom-revisted-in-depth-overview-of-the-machine-editions-features-rules-plus-an-interview-with-haggis-pinball/

You miss the point- Haggis is remaking the whole game with color changing LED's and displays, holoprojectors, new coding, color changing cab lighting, chrome trim, etc, etc.

I'm talking an almost direct remake with price in the 5k range.

Then you would obviously sell a LOT less but it would still cost about the same. I'm not missing a thing. Why would any sane person take these risks? You are better off investing in foreign currencies over the next 5 years. Printing money - more like lighting it on fire.

We've been over this before...not sure how cheap you think you could make a "stripped down" remake for and how much meat would be on the bone to sell for $5K and still stay in business.

5 LEDs probably cost the same or more than an LCD screen. Drop target mechs cost more to make than ramps. So who knows how "cheap" you could make a game like this for, compared to say, a Stern pro.

I disagree, people drop 8k for "restored" Fathoms on the regular.

It would be cheaper to make here in the states too with a lot of off the shelf hardware.

Yeah, but you only need to make about 20 of them before that market is saturated to death.

Haggis Fathom has color changing LED displays and some models have the screen AS WELL.

Single color displays are cheaper, period.

Well sure, anything is possible if you want to break some "state and federal labor laws"...

Base Haggis is $7500 and that has far more bling than a stock Bally. And its made in Australia where everything is ferociously expensive.

Ask Jersey Jack how making pinball outside of Chicago worked out.

Oh, thats right.

Right....but...Can you mass manufacture a full-featured, commercial/arcade quality remake of an old Bally game loaded with drop targets cheap enough that it's worth your while to sell them at $5k?

I do not know the answer. But I suspect neither do you!

We are all just flapping our gums around here, and "imaginary BOMs" have a long storied history on Pinside.

I personally don't think remaking a classic Bally solid state would really cost that much less than making a modern multilevel game. Just a hunch.

Based on the price of pinball parts, nothing to do with labor.

I can tell by that statement that you have no idea how much manufacturing and labor actually costs today in this country. You think it's just the money an employee takes home? Warm bodies are SUPER expensive and potentially the single largest cost AND liability of any business. Why do I even try?

I know its cheaper to make pins in Chicago than Australia.

I know single color pin displays are cheaper than color changing ones, not to mention several companies are turning them out.

I know pinball parts are cheaper in the United States.

I don't need an exact BOM to know from those facts a Fathom or Centaur or 8BD built here is going to be less than $7500 built there.

Well hopefully someone brings perfect repro classic Stern/Bally/Williams early digital games to market, manufactures them in the US, and sells them for under $5K. I bet they'd sell a bunch!

I know a great deal being an individual who actually manages people and has a payroll budget.

You talk cost of labor here, but ignore Stern, JJP, Chicago Gaming and Spooky who all make games here. Stern is currently selling Pro Mandalorian & Rush titles in the $6500 range which is a far more complex games than 80's Bally with modern franchise licensing costs to boot.

Again; ask Jersey Jack how making pinball outside of Chicago worked out for him.

My calculation is based on materiel costs which are cheaper here. A lot cheaper here. And a simpler machine to boot.

Try doing some restoration work Levi, $5000-$6000 looks mighty attractive vs a full blown restore of some titles. I have a Flash Gordon that was completed last year with new playfield, backglass, mechs, plastics, posts, etc. not to mention 1000's of hours of labor and initial cost of "the core"

Pick the titles people spend stupid money for and run off 500 to 1000 of them. I don't think there is much of a market for a $6000 Firepower but I bet you would move more than a few 8 Ball Deluxe at that price.

Well then that explains it all Mr. Payroll Manager. Maybe you should start a pinball company, you wouldn't even need to hire that position, you already have it covered.

You have poor written language comprehension skills.

Explain how Stern can bring a fully licensed title like Rush to market for $6500? So far you have done nothing but insult me on every point I have put forth.

You make ridiculous assertions and speculations pertaining to pinball. At least I have wit and can tell the difference between a joke and facts.

I need to explain how Stern does what? Makes a great game like Godzilla and sells it? Huh? They don't make many classics (Beatles=Seawitch?) Whoah Nelly/PBR? Even if they did and sold it for 6K, they would likely need to sell over 750 units to even come close to breaking even these days. Stern does not want to break even, they want to make a fortune and print money. What don't you understand about the niche classic pinball market? I'm super confused by all this banter. Thought we were all just chatting... I'm honestly not trying to insult anyone.

No one cares about non licensed games in todays market unless you’re saying it will costs thousands less than a stern pro (not possible). Most people that want a fathom have one.

And yet Haggis is advertising $7500 Fathom remakes.

This isn't speculation.

Advertising doesn’t equal sales. I believe they sold out of the mermaids. I don’t think the standards are flying off the shelves. How many mermaids? 250? I’m talking mass appeal. Like quantities Stern is pumping out. The demand just isn’t there. Even for a popular SS remake.

I'm talking a 1000 or less, was clear on that.

Obviously there is a market or Haggis would not be making a go of it.

I think haggis is succeeding because pinball people can’t resist sending thousands of non refundable dollars away on something that doesn’t yet exist.

It’s a winning business model.

Sorry missed that part. That’s something a boutique company could definitely benefit from.

Hopefully Haggis can become like spooky in getting games out and specialize in classic remakes. Could work for them.

Only a handful of mentions for Firepower so I’ll add to that as a suggestion. Gonna be a sad day if I need to sell that game. It’s great one for that era and in general.

Yeah, def. something to be said for the 'firsts' of the classic era. Crazy how king Ritchie did it with Firepower (so many firsts, and an amazing game..), and then again with High Speed so many firsts on the next level.

Fire Power-
First game to feature Lane Change, which is activated by pressing the right flipper button. First electronic multiball. First animated displays.

But I think Haggis is now losing money at that price point of $7500.

Hmmm,

I've got an original Fathom I'm going to list in the next few weeks. Maybe I should list a non-refundable deposit ahead of time for it? A non-refundable deposit that is transferrable... for a fee.

I think you are confusing "less complex" with "me no see ramps n stuff this game cheap" I guarantee the BOM on many classic ballys is higher than most modern pins. You think they could build electra or vector today? Have you seen underneath those playfields? Also I'm curious, how much "cheaper" do you think a single color display is vs an LCD?

I was specific in my examples.

Vector and Electra are not high demand, high dollar examples.

Centaur, Fathom, Eight Ball Deluxe are.

Not everything has to be remade, nor should it be.

People always seem to forget that a drop target bank costs way more than a ramp.

Ever seen the other side of a Medusa playfield? The space shuttle's engineering is seemingly LESS complex with how they packaged and fit everything in that space. It's mind blowing. There has to be about 12 miles of wire, the drop banks, all the lighting, the zipper flipper mechs, the pops, the spinners, all those coils, etc. etc. From the topside, it doesn't LOOK that complex.

Again, making an exact replica of a classic game would cost a fortune today.

As much crap as people talk, node boards, surface mount technology, and coms cables are probably the very things that have significantly decreased the BOM for Stern, and allowed them to stay profitable without larger price increases than we're already used to.

1) Yes I have owned a Medusa.

2) Medusa is said to be on the short list of next Haggis titles... so its being done.

3) Node boards no doubt save Stern money on labor costs as they make the games faster to assemble.

4) Node boards are not cheap, offset by labor savings no doubt.

Haggis Fathom has three of them.

How many does Bally Fathom have?