Excellent, totally agree!

JP
Godzilla
IM

AIQ doesn't even make the list for me. Sold my LE in less than 3 months.

No poll?

I’m only going to make in depth comments about JP as it’s the only game I’ve had at home so far. I think JP may be the best machine ever. The rules and depth are amazing, the atmosphere it creates in the wizard modes I don't feel with any other pin. The variety in the layout is fantastic.

People who love the movie aren’t happy with theme integration but I think what it does really well is make me feel like I’m not just hitting flashing shots, I feel like that moving light IS the dinosaur and if I don’t get to that person before it does, that person is going to get eaten!

Having said all that, I don’t think it’s Elwin most FUN game. I think you have to either be a very good player or extremely stubborn to fully appreciate it (Im the later). It can be such a frustrating game, the joy for an average player comes from finally having that great game after raging at the 200 games before it lol.

I’ve really loved and hated being able to have JP in a home environment and I can appreciate everything it has that makes me think it’s the best game but because for me it can be more frustrating than fun its not my favourite game. It’s the best game imo but not best for me if that makes sense and it will make way for Godzilla when I get notice on that.

So my ranking for best vs most fun/ my favourite would actually be different.

Best
1- JP
2- GZ
3- AIQ
4- IMDN

My favourite
1- GZ
2- IMDN
3- JP
4- AIQ

This game absolutely has thd most angry Steel in any game ever. Finally got to play it at MGC.

After reading this thread I fired up my AIQ, hadn’t played it in a while. Damn, it really is fun. I have the tiltforums rule sheet open now and am working my way through the rule set. But I’m glad I still have the game and now I am going to give it some solid focus to learn it better. Shoots awesome.

His best is yet to come...

Screenshot_20220227-213119_Chrome (resized).jpg

I think I can put my finger on AIQ's alleged lack of soul. It's that nobody in the game ever sounds like they're having any fun. There's no cheering, no revelry, no happiness. The Avengers have all the enthusiasm of an army enlistee reporting to inspection at 0700 hours. Hulk is the only one with any personality at all. Compare to Godzilla, where it's obvious he's having the time of his life as he's destroying the cities and military and everything.

As a game, AIQ is the best, the most skill-testing both physically and strategically, and the most rewarding for exploring the interactions and doing it well. As an overall experience, I can see where it feels empty and unappealing. I'm not sure how much of this to pin on Elwin himself, how much input the designer has to the audiovisual and personality package.

I'll be visiting the United Kingdom on a visitor's visa, but my English is a touch rusty. So, could you please explain me how I may start study in the Uk without IELTS test?

Swing and a miss.

For me the way I rank the games is different dependent on the level of game.
If I were to rank pros this would be my order:
1. Iron Maiden- I think this is an excellent pro with not a lot missing from the premium and is just a butter smooth shooter and though I am not a fan of the music I think it really works for pinball.
2. Godzilla- Again just a buttery smooth shooter and the shots are unique enough on this title that I don't miss the mechs quite as much though the collapsing building is awesome. The other two/three major mechs on the premium don't make a significant enough improvement for me to make a large enough difference for my ranking.
3. Avengers- Three separate ramps and lots to shoot for with buttery smooth combos but for me I really miss the subway and the vertical up-kicker for the Ant Man so much that the pro just feels lacking.
4. Jurassic Park- On the pro with the missing raptor pen I feel like that is mainly just a dead area of the playfield with only one shot there in the pro.

Very different story on the premium/le versions:
1. Avengers- I love an ass kicker of a game. This game keeps coming back for more and with the physical ball lock and added toy of the subway on this machine it just checks all of my boxes for a great game. I am a metal ramps and wireforms guy and this one has four of them, it also has drop targets, the aforementioned physical ball lock, newton ball, scoop/up-kicker, pops and a magnet. I want my pinball machines to have metal ramps and a little bit of everything and this game checks all my boxes. It's no Star Wars or Jurassic Park but the theme is up there for me too.
2. Jurassic Park- I think there is a reason that this game is currently the most sold premium of all time. The difference in gameplay between the pro and premium just by opening up the raptor pin is a huge difference. Not only that but the big thing is the T-Rex toy on the premium is just that much better. Again I love ass kicking games and this one is another one for me and also has my favorite combo in pinball from the right ramp shot to the raptor tower shot is just a great feeling combo especially if you have tow rescues set up on both.
3. Godzilla- Just not a real big fan of the bridge or the Mechagodzilla mechs. If the pro had the building mech I think everyone would probably agree it would be the best pro of all time but for obvious reasons they left it off. The other two mechs that make the biggest differences in the game just aren't needed for me to justify the premium title. That being said I may still go premium because of the building mech alone.
4. Iron Maiden- The upgrades and mechs here on the premium just aren't big enough to justify the upgrade here for me.

A straight rank for me not looking at pro vs premium would look like this:
1. Avengers
2. Godzilla and Jurassic Park
4. Iron Maiden

Typing all of this up and really thinking about it I realized that none of Elwin's pros have a physical ball lock yet all of his premiums do. I would love to see an Elwin pro with a ball lock sometime in the future.

Not the next one, but the one after will be his best.

One thing I think we can agree with, the man makes amazing machines. He is, for me, the best designer of all time and he's only made four games.

I own JP premium and a GZ LE. My best friend has IM LE and AIQ premium. I have spent some quality time on all 4. Here are my rankings:

JP- intense and super fun when you are in the zone. The game feels amazing when you are on and punishing if you are slightly off.

AIQ- just an incredible shooter. Don’t completely understand the rules. But who cares it feels good like a world under glass.

GZ- All around fun. The building is amazing. The game is just great. Has the art the shots total package. However, something doesn’t click with me. I play other games more. I keep hoping it clicks with code updates.

IM- another great game. My issue with IM is I am not a fan of the music. However the game is amazing.

You can’t go wrong with any of these games. All Elwin games are masterpieces so far.

Mike

This is making me think maybe I want a AIQ. I had an Maiden pro for a few months (temporary trade), and loved it would be happy with one again, but AIQ looks very cool, have been watching the tutorial so I understand it better.

I played AIQ premium but didn't care for the subway, thinking maybe could get the pro. I am a huge Marvel fan (owned XMLE for a number of years) and still own Iron Man (and DP).

PS: I was debating to get a new Fathom because it's so different than my other games, but I have never played one and frankly have never played much of the 80s pins so they're so pared down on the rules that I'm not sure if I'll care for it. But it's would be a showpiece and a difference in my collection however I am not looking to sell anything and I'm running short of room, so not sure if I want to take the space on a showpiece or get something that is more complicated and more like my style that I currently like (modern game).

Man, debating on AIQ and then in the same breath a Fathom is interesting. Like saying maybe I'll eat Thanksgiving dinner.... or maybe a bag of saltless peanuts. You're going from almost too many rules to almost none. From the some of the craziest ramps ever to "what's a ramp?"

True, I was only thinking of Fathom to be something different. But I'm not sure if I should just keep in my wheelhouse of games that I like.

However one point is AIQ would be lot cheaper (if I get the pro) and there is still a chance Fathom might not ship at all (?) not saying it won't but there is a chance it doesn't. But it would be nice to have 1 of 250 of something as a collectors item?

I was in the same boat (no pun intended), but bailed. I sold my place back to Haggis, which was gracious of them. I feel they will get delivered, but heck, who knows. Lord knows they're taking forever to come out.

But for me, it's not about rarity or collectability. Good luck with what you decide!

I have all 4. I love all 4. All 4 are staying! King Elwin!

I get off more on shots and layout than code. And Elwin’s bottom half layouts (say below the upper flippers) are what get me going. Godzilla is perfect. I’ve mentioned in the past that I could play a bottom half Godzilla cocktail pin with just a loop for that upper left flipper into the orbit forever. I also love the bottom half of JP and could almost say the same. That being said, in terms of fun, I’m at GZ, IM, JP/AIQ tie. There are no losers here by a long shot, but I don’t think JP is as fun to play as the shots are fun…

What Keith Elwin has brought to the pinball world is AMAZING - The guy is a genius with layouts, designs and flow

1. AIQ Premium - amazing shooter / take the subway off for faster flow (love that option) and I enjoy it as well with the subway on if I want to slow the game down - I have owned it since it was first released and it’s the one I keep going back to - the game is AWESOME and I do not see it leaving my collection

2. Iron Maiden Pro - I have played the premium and pro on location several times - both are great but I would go with a Pro - flow seems better on the Pro - I do not care for the band but I have been tempted to add one to my collection because it shoots so well - I wish they would reskin this one with another band or something else

3. Jurassic Park - excellent theme - played the pro and premium on location several times as well - I get bored with some of the shots and it seems slower paced at times compared to my top 2 picks - the two longer shots (at the dinosaur head & the wire form loop that goes around and around slows it down for me too much - the left return lane I’m bothered when the ball locks there - i feel it should have been placed elsewhere - also I do not care at all for how the shooter lane was designed - every time that I have walked away from the pin I never felt like it was one that I need to own in my collection - I see a lot of great reviews though

4. Godzilla - I played the pro and premium at a location for about 6 hours when it first came out - I tried to like this game - I think the shots are way too easy and I got bored - the music & call outs I got tired of and it would drive me nuts listening to it over and over if I had it in my home collection - I do not ever see myself adding this to my collection - my opinion is that this game is way overhyped and overrated to be at the top of Elwin’s list - the main reason it won all of the Twipys and sold so many is because Godzilla had no competition - I have to place this one at the bottom

Haven't played IM, not a fan of the music and haven't come across one in the wild yet. But of the other three Jurassic Park is my least favorite theme but I think the funnest of the lot. I'm not a super advanced player, but I could play JP all day, there is just a joy in it that I don't find in AIQ or GZ. They are both more attractive to me, but I feel JP has more flow.

The code, music and call outs suck, it has nothing to do with Elwin.

The code has quite a bit to do with Elwin, and the code is a stand out feature that I love about the game.

Keith's rules become part of the code.

I'm waiting on my GZ Premium for later this year. I've played it a ton and REALLY love it, hence buying it. JP was very fun as well but it didn't click the same. AIQ on the surface was super fun to play and I really enjoyed myself. My son loves it, but it seems like it can have some complexity to it. The surprise for me was Iron Maiden.

IM was flowy, fun and no complaints.

For me:

1. GZ
2. IM
3. JP
4. AIQ

1. JP
2. IM
3. GZ
4. AIQ

For me, I have a GZ pro and JP premium. I have played the other two on location. I really like imdn and it really clicked for me on the layout. Really a lot of fun. AIQ I didn’t understand and callouts were original Guardians code bad for me.

My order would be:

JP- I have played this game 3400+ times and I still love it. First nib game for me
GZ- going to wait until final code to decide but doesn’t have the magic of JP BUT still a great game. Quite a bit easier than JP which can be nice
Imdn- limited plays really like the layout. Don’t care for the band if it was the same game but Green Day theme it would be bumped up a notch
AIQ- not into marvel and the code was confusing to me. Probably a game you need at home to appreciate. As a side note seems like a lot of good deals out there on AIQ right now tempted to pick one up.

From a pure shooting standpoint I'd rate them

1: GZ
2: AIQ
3: JP
4: IM

But I feel like JP has way more cool factor above and beyond the fairly generic marvel stuff of AIQ so for total fun factor I'd probably swap JP and AIQ.

I was talking with friends the other day while playing, and I said it sure seems his games have gotten easier and easier to shoot as he releases them. I postulated that maybe Stern was like, "listen, not everyone is Keith freaking Elwin. Don't make the shots so damn hard." I found many of the shots hard to find in IM, and some of those shots in JP are also tough. Avengers is a damn dream, and GZ almost seems too easy to hit the shots. Love all his games, but they seem to have become more accessible as time has gone on. Thoughts?

Possible, but only to an extent.

Sometimes shots are placed somewhere because that's the only place they can go. Keith has said in an interview that after getting everything they wanted onto the PF on Godzilla, the only place they had left to put the left ramp shot, is where is it. That means he didn't necessarily want it there, but it had to go there due to everything else they needed on the PF.

I don't want to put words in Keith's mouth, but that's the extent of it

Pretty much this, and I could swap 1a for 1b on a given day. Also that gap between 3 and 4 is key.

I find Godzilla to be his toughest "shooting" game; it's all steep drainy ramps and steep drainy loops. If you are missing, you are draining.

I'm not really a ramp/loop guy so I find that game to be pretty tough, at least when I've played it in tournaments.

I wouldn't really agree with your assessment, all of his games have some difficult shots. AIQ I would say is the "easiest" to just string shots together on. I don't notice any kind of a trend with his designs as far as them getting progressively "easier" or "harder."

I was thinking how at this point that I like the rules from JP better than GZ, probably would put JP at top spot today.

Interesting, I find many of the GZ shots almost make themselves, and I am NOT a good shooter. It's also pretty forgiving on misses from my experience, unlike AIQ.

Sounds like the one(s) you played were on the steep side. I usually jack my games up fresh out of the box, but on GZ the bubble is dead center in the level. I played a much steeper GZ on location and didn't enjoy it, game crushed me. Factor in dirty/worn location flippers, and ouch. Right ramp had to be perfect instead of any ol' shot going up.

For me, my ranking goes:

1) GZ
2) AIQ
3) IM
4) JP

All of them are incredible. GZ is amazing, but has those "Zach Meney" moments that can take a little too long for me, at times. IM is brilliant, I just don't like the theme. Maybe some of my favorite callouts ever are in that machine.

I don't own any Elwin games (yet) but I've played all four on location. I'd say I'm an intermediate player at best and my current thoughts on ranking his games is based in large part on my skill level.

1a. GZ--This is is incredibly fun to shoot for me. Even if I can't score a gagillion points I feel like I consistently have fun and non-frustrating games on this machine. The theme integration is incredible. The building is my favorite toy in pinball, even beating out the castle in MM. The only thing thing keeping it from being the clear #1 for me is that I don't love the theme itself and the announcer's voice can get a little grating (despite being absolutely perfect for the theme).

1b. AIQ--I've played this one the least, but much like GZ I have had fun shooting this game and have had more "fun" games than frustrating ones. I don't know the ruleset at all and/or how complicated it is. But I still had fun and was able to get into modes and multiballs. I couldn't hear the sounds/callouts all that well. It's clear people have problems with them. Having said that, I'm a huge comic book geek and from what I heard and saw I think I'm OK with everything being animated and sounding like comic book dialogue... and not sounding like the movies/movie characters. (I feel very differently about JP as I write below.) I can't make this game my clear winner because I've had the least experience with it. But I think I *might* want to own this machine more than GZ.

2. IM--This one is fun, but the whole left side of the playfield is tough for me to shoot. Unlike many, I LOVE this band so this is close to a dream theme for me. I would own this one. But I own my pinballs based on my wife's tolerance, and she would NOT tolerate this one due to the music... I can't convince my wife but y'all that don't like this band--go listen to a few of their albums all the way through and see if you can't come around on them. Outside of these guys, I'm not a huge fan of heavy metal music. I'd especially suggest any of Powerslave, Somewhere in Time or Seventh Son of a Seventh Son. While their earlier albums are all great, they had really honed their sound and for me by Powerslave and for me they were at the top of their game. All killer. No filler. It still amazes me how geeky/nerdy most of their music is and nobody seems to notice.

3. JP--I have a hard time shooting this game. I'm probably just not good enough at pinball to enjoy it. And unlike with AIQ the lack of movie theme integration really hurts this game for me in a big way. I don't want to have to install some third party software and sound/video package to improve the experience. Because of the difficulty and lack of theme integration, this one is my least favorite by far.

Maybe it's a thought for a separate thread, but I know a lot of people in this thread think Elwin is the best ever already. For those folks in particular, I wonder how people would think about stacking any other designer's best 4 games against Elwin's first 4. I think it would be no contest to stack any other designer's first 4 games against Elwin's, but Elwin is standing on the backs of those giants to a large degree.

Fair point! Not only did he learn what to do, he learned what NOT to do. Most designers have a trademark quirk or two that I find un-fun at best, or just plain bad design at worst. KME seems to have dodged most of the un-fun bullets. Probably has something to do with being the best player in the world for like a decade.

Dinosaurs and Monster Trucks. Played it at Pin a go go. It had a vari-target. Nuff said.

I now have 100 plays in on AIQ and can fairly say it’s his easiest game of the 4, but also his best shooter (IMO). I have really really taken a liking to AIQ - I crapped on this game when it was first released. Rules are great, easy to progress, but lots of breadth to try different strategies. I think it’s Achilles heal is that the rules aren’t intuitive especially in the last 2/3 of the game, and can be hard to follow (but it’s actually quite easy once you learn it). The music isn’t all that great either. As for call outs; I think they do the job just fine, way better than JP IMO. IMDN still has some of the coolest call outs ever.

All in all Here’s my updated ranking, I’m leaving GZ out of it as I only have a handful of plays on it so far.

1. IMDN
2. AIQ (if I wasn’t in the honeymoon it would be #1 but I want to see how I feel about it next month - I do think it’ll surpass IMDN on my list).
3. JP

While last on my current list, I do think JP is his best as far as wizard modes are concerned. It has some of the coolest most intense moments of pinball mixed in with the best toy in pinball, the T-Rex. Unfortunately for me, the layout just wasn’t too fun along with the heavy amount of dinosaur call outs (hello it’s a dinosaur pin lol), and fairly repetitive ruleset, has it last on my list.

yep

wink, wink

wink wink is turning into a pinside inside joke that everyone knows now
. Haha!

For me its IronMaiden. Layout, music, callouts, rules, shots, animations are all top notch.

How could I forget, artwork too.

The right ramp is kinda steep, but neither are drainy IMO. Weak shots to the right ramp often roll back down to the sweet spot on the left flipper. I can usually flip on the fly and make my second attempt. No catch needed. The other day I missed twice, then made it on the third try. Not many ramps feed a weak shot back to the sweet spot on the flipper used to make that shot. Upper loop will absolutely go straight down the right outlane on a weak shot (if you do nothing).

Yeah I know. Everybody says that.

I think I just suck at Godzilla!!

But on the other hand I’m finally figuring out AIQ after a month of ownership.

AIQ ruleset reminds me of the complexity of AC/DC's.

Try another example. The premium I play wasn't leveled properly, was floaty and the magnet drop was way off when it arrived. Played like crap. We leveled it and jacked it up to 6.7 and it was night and day. Setup is most important on this title of the four, especially pitch.

One of the reasons I like the upper loop most on GZ is because it's 'aging' better than the other game's loops. Even after thousands of plays, it's still extremely makeable. Can't get as many consecutive loops as the others, but very consistent, even when old and dirty.

Iron Maiden gets my vote!

Yeah I thought this too, when it helps to know the discography for strategy on song bonuses, etc. But it's not a requirement to know them. On a good, long game, your score still reflects your flipping skills.

AIQ is just a hot mess of rules with gem powers that require reading 20 pages to understand strategy. The layout was really fun to shoot, but the rules are just too complicated for my taste. Rules should be more intuitive.

My vote is JP without a doubt.

JP is a true masterpiece in theme, layout and rules. It's easy to follow and somehow avoids feeling repetitive.