I think I'd buy one and put it on location till its paid off!

If a policyholder wants to know what I made on there policy the can write a letter and find out. Or just ask and I will tell. No big deal and im not embarrassed about it. I was just curious about what a pin could bring in.. More bc I think...nevermind it bed time 4 me.

I can understand ops getting annoyed with the question ( although, I think the OP here was blameless, he asked a question in an open forum, you can easily ignore it, no ones being put on the spot).

Every single person I've invited into my basement has asked me how much my games cost, I can't even think of an exception.

I didn't ask about policy holders, I asked "Do you honestly have people walk in off the street and ask you how much you make ? I do, that is why I'm asking if it happens in auto insurance too."

LTG : )

BBH!

I've only been an op for a few years, but here are my results so far in the pinball world from best earnings to worst. All of these games are (or were) at the same location. My games tend to fall into certain divisions of earning -- each division is roughly, I don't know, 20% or so higher than the next one down:

Lord of the Rings
Batman Dark Knight

Pirates of the Caribbean
Iron Man

The Shadow
Creature From the Black Lagoon
Whitewater

World Cup 94
No Good Gofers
Bram Stoker's Dracula

Jack-Bot
Whirlwind
Black Knight 2000

Johnny Mnemonic
Diner
Mousin' Around
Centaur

I should add that any one of these could be, or have been top tier games for a time (even Mousin' Around), but depending on the legs of the game it will usually taper off. It happens much faster with some than others. Mousin, for example, fell off after only 2 weeks, while Pirates and Iron Man are only starting to fall off after 6 months or more. LOTR is the only game that has remained completely consistent for the past year.

I also have a Medieval on location, but it's a one-off at a bar/cafe. It doesn't do as well as most people are saying in this thread, but at the same time it's not a location that attracts many pinball people. The reason I have it there is because the owners were willing to give me a very attractive deal in order to secure such a sought-after game in their location.

I, too am annoyed when people ask what I make, though I think with most pinheads it's just basic curiosity about the state of pinball rather than an underhanded attempt to determine my annual income. I will say, though, that the most that any single pin has made in a week is $200, and the least that any game has made is around $30. Both of those examples are extremes and not what I would consider the norm.

But there are 20 TSPPs on location in Portland according to the pinball map. I know it's the most-operated pin up here in Seattle as well. I have to imagine it's for good reason (and I'm buying one soon to find out!)

Does this mean John's games aren't going to be set up with a coin door and coin box? If he truly builds a better mouse trap then the ROI might be worth the purchase. With the amount of pin players in the Bay Area, the rarity of his pins, plus his innovation not seen in other pins,he might not be such an enemy.

I would drive 2 hours up to dump at least 20 - 30 bucks into it since I would probably never get a chance to see one in real life. (I wouldn't do that to play AC/DC as I know people that have one.) Wonder how many other Pinheads would do the same? Wonder if his innovation can bring in any more money?

The Big Question- (only one that matters)- If an operator bought a pin from John, would the earnings justify the extra cost?

It's also one of the most operated down here in San Diego.

I understand some people want to keep things quiet but in this day and age, there are few operators and so little competition, I don't see how it gives anyone an advantage keeping quiet. It's not like someone is going to take what they read here and encroach into someone else's turf.

I'd also contend there are so many variables when it comes to what makes a game earn that just the title is one part of the formula.

Three in a bowling alley that don't really do didly poo. Whirlwind $15 a week. Terminator 2 $30 a week. Family guy does $35 a week. Games are fully operational, clean, with no errors, in a fairly busy 32 lane bowling center. Now the redemption games........some do $500 a week......insane

Me too. I also get asked what my house is worth, and what I charge for my business.

It's so consistent, it's just the way people are these days. Not saying its right or wrong, but that's the world we live in now.

My experience over the past year...
note that location quality/foot traffic/demographics of customers vary to affect...
#1 LOTR - in tattoo place where I got workers into it and great geographic area
#2 JD - in tattoo place where I got workers into it and great geographic area
#3 TFTC - in record shop, fan favorite, decent tournament game
#4 TS - in record shop, player favorite, good tournament game
#5 SOP - in record shop, did well alone, decent tournament game (traded for CTFBL + $$$)
#6 BMFE - in record shop, did well solo (was only solo on route)
#7 CFTBL - did horribly in tattoo place (due to being hard), did ok in record shop
#8 B&R - didn't due well in record shop, too many other options, had probs, tweaked now in bar in downtown jax as of yesterday
#9 DM - damn game has probs since I bought it, going to be shopped then out to best possible location.

Coming soon - T2 & DRwho (DRwtf edition that I'm making)

G!D! man, I will own and operate this game someday, damnit man! I'm in the south!
It'll do great in a good location, tough to find a bar that isn't mad smokey,
but I have a prospect or two that I will work on.

Bobby runs a great operation, best in the area. I think Xmen is a top earner right now because its new. I spent my whole visit playing it, like it, not sure yet if I want it. But there is something to be said about an operator who makes the investment in the latest titles, they make more when they are hot! Is that fair to say Bob and or Lloyd?

a great thread...!! thanks for posting...all our games are "arcade quality" wait until you see!! coin door too!

No I don’t. Not off the street. I don’t deal with that type of client. But people do ask me and I tell them that I do very well. And then I tell them what a new rep would make x amount in his first year. Normally when someone asks what I make they are looking to become an Agent.

It is nobody’s business what you or I make. But giving a piece of info on what 1 pin will earn in a week is not going to tell someone how much u make in a year, unless they are ignorant and those people, well who cares what they think. Plus this is a discussion forum not people off the street. I understand you dont want to disclose any detail about what one of your pins makes in a week and I can respect that. IMO being an op has to be a frustrating job. But for someone who is looking to get into that field bc they love pinball and could use some extra coin, it would be helpful for one to know what a decent pin should pull in. If it does not pull in x amount then move to a new location. I know most bars around me (which there are many being on Long Island) don’t have any pinball machines. I have spoken to a few owners because I look for pinball, and most were open to putting one in for the customers to play. Don’t get me wrong im not looking to do this. I don’t have time nor the patients to deal with the problems that you deal with. Like I said I was just curious. I dont mind paying $1 to play a good pin on location. Even if I don’t love the game it’s still pinball and the more I support the op the better it is for the industry. I have seen a CSI in some Hole in the wall bar that we went to last week. A friend of a friend use to own the bar. He died and we were there celebrating his life. I did not even know there was a pin in the bar bc It was in a nook hiding. I put some credits in and played a few. Told my friends to check it out and put credits in for them just to support this op. There are only 3 op's that have pin's that I know of on LI and finding pins is very far a few between. I think there is <10 pin in all of Nassau and Suffolk county. So out of 1 million bars only 10 pins. There are a few places in Brooklyn with some good pins. I make the trip from time to time. That’s about 1h 20min from me, one way with no traffic.

I do not think I would be able to figure out how much an opperator makes a year based on the earnings of his best game. I would still have to know all of the overhead costs involved in operating, and that would change from person to person. I know how much some of the automotive and aerospace jobs sell for in my field, but have no idea how much the owner of the shop brings home a year.

The original poster wasn't asking specifically about earnings. He was asking about games. Someone who replied asked about earnings. The only thing the original poster is guilty of is not explaining why he was asking. That goes on a lot here. People throwing out questions without explaining why they're asking. I'm happy to answer questions, but tell me why you're asking.

That's different. A game in the home is a luxury item. A toy, so to speak. That's fair game. Asking about someone's income is completely different. I understand the curiosity, but to me, it's poor manners. My parents taught me that certain topics are best not discussed in public. One of those things was talking about how much money someone makes. It's rude.

I'm not worried about competition. I just don't think it's any of their business.

I don't ask other people questions like this, I won't answer questions like that asked of me.

It just seems rude to me.

LTG : )

Then they haul their butt out there and learn like I did. No free ride.

LTG : )

Interesting. I would think there's a couple of things going on there. My guess is many of them are loss leaders. Players love the game, so that gets them in the door. Put an IM on one side of it and a BSD on the other side and those games will make your money for you. Another consideration is that there were a lot of them built (for Stern). There's currently even more LOTR on location in Portland. Same deal there. The Twilight Cafe and Bar currently has two pins. A TSPP and a LOTR. I can guarantee you that is not the best earning 2 pin location in town. Great lineup for players, horrible lineup for earnings.

You're right, I was just pointing out that I don't think the OP did anything wrong. I think we're in agreement there.

Yes, I agree. I still find it rude. I'm always surprised people ask questions like that. I was also raised that it was simply none of my business. When I tell people, you can see instant judgment. I want to ask how much they've spent in bars in the past year.

Interesting note, my in-laws are coming down next weekend for x-mas.. My wife is excited to host a pinball tournament for all of them. I'm wondering how many of them are going to ask what I have invested in these "toys"... Maybe I should ask them their dick size?

I didn't think so. I get frustrated when folks throw out questions here without explaining why they're asking. Often I may be able to answer their question, but I don't have much motivation to answer if I don't know why they're asking. Thanks for explaining. Better a little late than never.

As well you should be. The vast majority of their customers are casual. It's not unusual to hear folks speaking foreign languages on the boardwalk during the summer. It's a tourist trap. There was an article in Fortune magazine a few years ago where they were bragging that the arcades generate something like 4% of their revenue. The arcades are open year round, unlike the rest of the boardwalk. I've tried to get them to improve the condition on the pins. I even offered my services as a (yelp 5 star) paid tech. No luck.

You need to go there. It's the polar opposite of the boardwalk. Someone who makes decisions there really likes pinball.

Let me tell you a little something about the coin op industry.

Manufacturers need to move product so they let you know what game is great. Distributors need to move product so they tell you what game is great. Resellers that buy games to sell will let you know what game is great.

Do you know how to tell if they are lying ? Their lips are moving.

I've only been in this industry half a century, what do I know ?

LTG : )

Good to hear. Although I doubt I'll see one on location near me anywhere but a non-profit museum. We'll see.

Sadly with the pricing, I still believe the future of pinball is home collections, shows, and museums.

LTG : )

So do I. I usually answer in vague terms, or try to switch it back to them.

'A lot. How much did you pay for that Challenger RT out in my driveway?'.

Don't bother. Apparently that question was meant to be rhetorical. Lesson learned. Maybe to get some quid pro quo I need to send him PM's of my hard on next to a ruler.

What? Brett Favre does it all the time.

That's not a future to me. I'll just leave it at that. I've done enough speachifying here.

+1, This happens all the time in my other hobbies. You paid how much for that bicycle? Boy, those trains must have cost a LOT of money! I usually reply with things like, How much did those new golf clubs run you? Didn't you just go on a hunting trip to Alaska/Africa/etc...? How much does Botox cost? I can usually tell when people are just being curious and not accusing though.
One thing different for me is that because I'm military, I don't get many people asking me how much I make. EVERYONE in a military town knows how much you make, believe me.
I would expect new games to earn well, at least until the next game comes out, just because they are new. I will drive across town to play a game for the first time, old or new. Condition will determine if I ever go back.

How much does that tank you drive cost ? What kind of mileage do you get with it ?

LTG : )

Current costs are about $6 Million per tank. Gas is roughly 2 gallons per mile depending on model, terrain, speed etc... It also takes about 10 gallons just to start the engine and about 8 gallons to idle for 15 minutes. We have a 500 gallon capacity and will easily use that in a day during training or operations.

Oh, and Lloyd, I don't want to know.

You single handedly just made pinball seem like a bargain.

Glad your hobby isn't air craft carriers.

LTG : )

It's not just a job, its an Adventure.

Now I need to make a trip up there just to ask, so you ask, so I can answer just to see how you respond.

The responses just get deeper with more penetration.

LTG : )

Wonder why aircraft fuel is gauged by Lbs. on the instrument panel ?
( They burn a LOT of fuel)

It is more accurate if they measure it in pounds than in gallons.

LTG : )

What about the factor that Ground Kontrol in Portland uses, where they sell overpriced beer in a "barcade". I don't know, but it seems like that places rakes in tons of cash. Also, Pinball Museum in LV can afford to make half a million dollar donations. It's all about getting lots of people to one place with lots of machines, it seems to me.

Ground Kontrol didn't start like it is today in the slightest. Was very tiny and not downtown. They pulled hard, have a great model, found a great downtown location and are doing very well. Although, worst pinball machine upkeep in town. Mostly because they have 25+ machines with incredible amounts of play. I'd love to see a coinbox after a weekend down there, it's crazy. Their beer is like 3-5$ a beer, depending on what you get and size. That's standard/cheap for a bar downtown in a lot of places.

RFM