(Topic ID: 6585)

Best because everyone says it is..

By OrochiLeona

12 years ago


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  • Latest reply 12 years ago by emo
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    #1 12 years ago

    Ok, this might read like a troll-y/flamebait topic, but I assure you that isn't my intention.

    When you talk to pinball fans and ask them obvious questions like "Which are the best/your fave etc"
    You pretty much get the same say 20-30 names mentioned. I don't need to list them, you know the ones I mean. Pinside and many other "Top 100's" can attest to these choices.

    Sooooo... here's my topic of discussion.

    Are the usual suspects in people's top 10/100 actually just the usual suspects because, well, "thats what everyone else says".

    Am I making sense to you? Because I'm not to myself. Try again.
    Are games like Medieval Madness, Theatre of Magic, Iron Man etc REALLY as popular choices as they are purely based on quality? or are a lot of these regularly mentioned machines simply fortunate to be 1) Easier to find today 2) Included on sims such as Williams HOF and 3) Having that Domino factor (e.g 50 people say "I LOVE that game", 50 more new pinball fans come along, read that somewhere, then they also say "I LOVE that game" and so on)

    Or are these games truly the best Pinball Machines ever made? As there are a bunch of games that frequently appear in the top 50 that blow my mind as to how they got there.

    Anywhoo, you get my point, now discuss, dammit. Looking forward to your various views.

    I'm not picking on any game in particular, I just mean that range that everybody always mentions.

    #2 12 years ago

    I played MM before I knew it was #1/#2 on the top 100 list. And I do agree its my fav. But there were a few I didn't enjoy as much. I think it really depends on each individuals play style and likes/opinions. There are plenty of games someone else likes that I don't. But I think the top 10 games are good rule sets, features, toys, quality. There has to be some reason they stay so popular.

    #3 12 years ago

    I believe they are. Some may disagree but as I have tried to play many of the top machines out there they usually fall into place nicely on the charts. No always but, usually.

    #4 12 years ago

    I played and owned a lot of the top machines before I knew there was a Pinside. I thought the castle was cool and the theme when I bought MM. I was told it was expensive because of the rareness and most were in Europe.

    #5 12 years ago
    Quoted from pinheadpuckguy:

    I was told it was expensive because of the rareness and most were in Europe.

    4k+ production run..... so it's "rare factor" is debatable.... didn't know a lot of them were exported.

    This was discussed on RGP on why M.M. hold it's value..... It still seems to do well on location for op's. And it's the "vogue" pin to have for the pin collectors....

    #6 12 years ago

    I beleive its a combination of both. Among pin enthusiasts there are sheeple just like everywhere else. You can find sheeple who will see a top n list wherever they beleive to be an authoritative source, and that will become their top 10/20/50/100 list with few exception.

    However, I don't beleive the lists are necessarily produced by this demographic to any great significance, but rather by those who have varying tastes, likes and dislikes. In fact, you can find posts here and even in reviews where pin heads will question why a particular machine garners such a position.

    So, in general, pins with high ratings are probably indicative of those that are more highly regarded by a larger body of individuals (sheeple and non-sheeple alike). However, that doesn't automatically mean they would rank likewise in your top n list.

    #7 12 years ago

    I actually who knew a fella who would refer to the *top 10* ratings on IPDB. He even went as far as to try to own all of them - I think he did one time...

    I'll preface by saying that his dad was loaded. I can't tell you how many hobbies this guy had (pretty sure he's into cars now). Now this guy had no clue about pins at all. I'm sure he hadn't played any of them before he purchased them. But, he treated that list like it was gospel! I'm pretty sure he's not the only one, either, out there - especially people whom have a good income.....

    I never been one of these type of collectors... I always wanted to play every pin first before I purchase.

    #8 12 years ago

    Generally speaking I think the top 20 pins are there because they look and play great. That said, some become 'hot' and everyone wants it so the rating can become inflated to individual positions do not matter too much.

    I keep playing MM and whilst I like it, I cannot get why it is hyped so much.

    There are also pins out of the top 20 that for me are as enjoyable as anything out there i.e HS2 and FT. But they do not score as high in depth and looks.

    #9 12 years ago

    Your post is something I often wonder too... and personally I believe that there's a lot of 'kings clothes' scenario that has a bigger effect than most people like to believe in the charts (the sheeple effect if you like)... I remember reading someone say that they'd not consider buying a pin if it wasn't in the top 50... which is a testiment to this thinking (i.e., if it's in the top 50, it must be good)... imagine if people only listened to music that got in the charts...

    Personally I love a lot of games that aren't in the top 50, and I dislike a lot that are... I also happen to agree with the No1 pinball... (MM is at the top of my personal charts) so I don't consider myself going against the flow just to make a piont... as I'm sure there are people who do this too... It's very easy to be persuaded by the masses into believeing what's good, and quite difficult, I think, to stand back and say, hang on a minute... what do I really think about this... I do struggle with this pressure to conform with the majority opinions at times, but try and let me ratings for each game stay true to my own feelings...

    There is another possible effect also that keeps the top 50 where it is, and that is these pins demand a lot of cash... people have big investments in them... the investors want to keep their investments valuable, so is it wise to start rating a game down if you go off it after buying it for a lot of money? maybe a cynical view, but I bet there's a fair amount of that keeping the charts where it is...?

    I'm not too sure, but I feel I may need a flame suit now

    #10 12 years ago

    I like mm have played it, also and all the games in the top 50.The games in the top 10 price are high IMO.But like anything that has a high demand,and high rollers buying what do you expect?

    #11 12 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    I remember reading someone say that they'd not consider buying a pin if it wasn't in the top 50.

    I don't know if someone else has mentioned this recently but when I said that (^^^^), the full context was indicating how much more I know about games and their qualities and how they play since then. Before I joined Pinside and started expanding my games played (or even heard of) I said the only reason I came to Pinside was for the rankings and would only have picked out a Top 50 pin, which was foolish because there are so many great pins out there, many that rank much lower by opinions.

    IE, I really enjoy Nascar but it doesn't even make the Top 100. I wouldn't place it in the Top 20 but certainly the Top 100.

    I believe that with as many different people ranking some of the games (400+) the average is going to be fairly accurate as a GROUP.

    As an individual, your rankings should be different. I see some of the pins in my Top 20 rankings with scores below 6 on other peoples list. Who is correct? We BOTH are!!!

    #12 12 years ago

    It would be foolish to think that people's perceptions are not altered by rankings such as the Pinside 100. It's just human nature. On the other hand, the pins that are highly ranked are there for a reason. People can argue that games like MM or TZ don't deserve to be so highly ranked, but at the end of the day, the people have spoken. Both Pinside and IPDB have a large enough pool of people ranking pins that I think it's safe to say that the lists are a fairly accurate reflection of a game's overall popularity.

    #13 12 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    so is it wise to start rating a game down if you go off it after buying it for a lot of money?

    I have run in to this myself. I DO feel kind of guilty when I start lowering my rating on one of my own pins but, I find myself doing this at times. The reason (I think??) is that many of my original rankings were based on memories of pins that I played over 10 years ago. Now that I am reacquainting myself with some old games, I often find my tastes have changed and I don't like them as much. I have had the opposite happen though, too. TSPP and AFM rose dramatically in my ratings after I played them again this year...

    #14 12 years ago

    Pins in the top 20 are expensive because they are good/pretty. They are also easy to sell and tough to buy. All good reasons for a newbee or casual player/collector to focus in on them.

    #15 12 years ago

    I don't think MM or MB should be in the top ten. Neither are deep. MM is a fun game, but there are many better, deeper games.

    Games in the high rank are usually there for a combo of their rule set, WPC and a few sterns prevailing because of their production era, and because of the theatrical presentation they provide.

    To each their own. Once you play them all, you will form your own lists, and there will always be games you think should be there, and ones you don’t.

    Really, who cares. Collect what you want, some are keepers, some turn out not to be.

    #16 12 years ago

    Everyone has their own tastes when it comes to pins. All the top 100 does is take these opinions and average them all out. They fall where they fall. Whether I like a pin or not has nothing to do with where they are on the top 100. There are some I love that are high on the list and some I hate that are high on the chart. To each their own. I like having the list and like adding my own opinions/ratings to it. But in the end..

    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    Really, who cares. Collect what you want, some are keepers, some turn out not to be.

    +1

    #17 12 years ago

    I think the top pins are there mostly because they are the most fun to play,other factors enter in to this somewhat.Every bodies top 10 are different so to each his own.To choose your favorites to own or play,play them several times to see what you like or do not like.Good question by the way.

    #18 12 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    Your post is something I often wonder too... and personally I believe that there's a lot of 'kings clothes' scenario

    I definitely think there is something in this. When I first got into pinball I didn't have much cash and asked around to make sure I spent wisely. In the end I went for a JD, a game I could afford but that I was warned off. When I told some of those who had advised me against it, they said "really, what's it like". They hadn't even played it!

    In general though I would say that as a guide the top 100 is an indicator of the average view. That doesn't mean that games that aren't in the top 100 are not worth playing because most games are.

    #19 12 years ago

    You know that Space Shuttle is a popular game and has a good following. However it's not on 'this' top 100.

    #20 12 years ago
    Quoted from dirtrider:

    You know that Space Shuttle is a popular game and has a good following. However it's not on 'this' top 100.

    I find that surprising as well. Great game, even on the Williams collection.

    #21 12 years ago

    Not really that much to add but I will say that rating games also takes into consideration what my family enjoys playing as well. My son loves deep games and can figure them out within a couple of plays. My daughter has no interest and just likes those that are "fun", cool to look at and most important, easy. I take those facts into consideration as well. So my ratings are based on their feelings as well.

    #22 12 years ago

    Don't take the list so seriously. Everyone has their own personal top games. Who cares really?

    #23 12 years ago
    Quoted from guymontag451:

    Everyone has their own personal top games.

    'Zackly...what he said....

    #24 12 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    I don't think MM or MB should be in the top ten. Neither are deep. MM is a fun game, but there are many better, deeper games.

    Games in the high rank are usually there for a combo of their rule set, WPC and a few sterns prevailing because of their production era, and because of the theatrical presentation they provide.

    To each their own. Once you play them all, you will form your own lists, and there will always be games you think should be there, and ones you don’t.

    Really, who cares. Collect what you want, some are keepers, some turn out not to be.

    I agree with your statements except for the first sentence. I really like both MM and MB because they are fun games with a lot of satisfying shots (along with good sound and humor, which are secondary to me but still factors). I played them when they came out in the 90's and really liked them a lot then, more than many other contemporary games. Depth is not critical for my enjoyment. I'm also a fan of many EMs, and they aren't "deep" as DMD fans define the term. Good shots and balanced scoring, plus the urge to "play just one more game" are indicators of fun factor for me.

    For example, I really do NOT like TZ or STTNG--played them a LOT over the years since the 90's. I simply don't find them fun. Even when TZs routinely sold for well under $2k, I was never tempted to buy one. OTOH, I really like many DE games that tend not to make "favorites" lists. (SST and LAH and TFTC, among others.) I also really enjoy most classic Sterns (hope to own a Big Game and some others someday.)

    I also disagree (semi-facetiously) with the statement above that everyone has their opinions about which pins they like or don't. I think many people only want to own top-ranked pins and don't really form their own opinions. I know one guy who has a good-sized collection of the 'usual suspects' and not a single quirky/low-ranked game in the bunch. Probably the biggest stretch is Banzai Run (a fun game, but it shows how rankings-centric his collection is.) Despite the 'impressive' assortment of popular titles, I find it to be one of the most boring collections I've seen. I'm not afraid to own less-popular games that I like. I happened to be in possession of a Sega Lost World, and really find it fast and challenging, although not 'deep' by any means. And most experienced pin fans who come by and play it really like it as well and wonder why it gets such a bad rap.

    #25 12 years ago

    I look at the top rated games and that's about as far as it goes. If a game is fun to play, it becomes one of my personal top 10 or 50. A good example is the game Gorgar, many members really enjoy it, I've played it atleast 200 times and I don't care for it, but to each his own. That being said I'm also not so gullable that I'd believe the top 100 list have no influence on some opinions....... we just have to be true to ourselves

    #26 12 years ago
    Quoted from guymontag451:

    Don't take the list so seriously. Everyone has their own personal top games

    #27 12 years ago

    A lot of popular pins are popular because people actually had a chance to play them. MM and AFM are still routed so people can actually play them to formulate an opinion. It is one reason TAF became so popular not only to pin heads but anyone that walked into an arcade in the 90s.

    I think the top 50 list reflects this in a lot of cases.

    #28 12 years ago

    Hey,

    I don't know if anyone will read this far down the thread, but my take on it has to do with the list somewhat perpetuating itself. Say you're picking someone up from the airport, you're waiting for 10 or 15 minutes, and you've got two or three quarters in your pocket (key here: enough for one game). You walk into the game room at the airport and there's a Monster Bash and a World Cup Soccer (the one from '94). Odds are that if you haven't tried either, and you're an IPDB/PinSide frequenter, you'll plug the money into the Monster Bash because it's rated higher. And Monster Bash is a good game, I'll say it myself. So you'll come back and say, "Yeah, I haven't played Monster Bash a ton, but I sure enjoyed it when I did." And Monster Bash will stay up near the top, and World Cup Soccer will stay where it is not because it's a bad game, but because the ranking list more or less dictates the games you're going to play, and therefore going to rate. I won't say I'm not guilty of it myself; if you put a Striker Extreme (which I've never played) next to, well, any other game I've never played, my money would go in the other game. Just my two cents.

    Luke

    #29 12 years ago

    I think people can make up their own minds as to what games are good, versus which ones to skip. Rankings are just how many agree/disagree with you.

    Games I love to play that aren't super popular and will probably own someday:

    TFTC, Pharaoh, HS2, BSD, T2, SST,

    Games that were fun, but theme really kills it for me so I will put quarters in, but not own:

    BBH, CSI, NBA (Stern), Nascar

    Games that are popular, but not with me.

    TZ, STTNG

    Just my 2 cents

    #30 12 years ago

    There is alot of that following the herd mentality with the pinball community!

    lemmings-cliff-cartoon.jpglemmings-cliff-cartoon.jpg

    #31 12 years ago

    So the real question then is- how many of us pinheads play through "Rose-Coloured" glasses; how many do not??? Does nostalgia account for rating certain machines higher on the subconscious level?
    Am I wearing pants?
    Did that gorilla just fart???
    Questions indeed!

    Oh yeah,
    Orochi Iori says "Hi"...

    OIori.jpegOIori.jpeg
    "Ugghhhghgh..."

    #32 12 years ago

    I think SM is the best game ever created! Seriously!

    #33 12 years ago
    Quoted from tk375:

    I think SM is the best game ever created! [] Seriously!

    I know it's in your OWN opinion, but SM over TZ, MM, AFM, TAF, TOTAN, etc. sounds silly. No offense.

    #34 12 years ago
    Quoted from kwiKimart:

    I know it's in your OWN opinion, but SM over TZ, MM, AFM, TAF, TOTAN, etc. sounds silly. No offense.

    No Offense Taken, I do see it over MM, AFM, TOTAN and TAF in that order. TZ is really not close to be a top ten IMO but it is. Great table and very very modable that's for sure.

    Hey you live in SD, there's going to be a huge Halloween Pinball Party, but on the 22nd, PM if you can.

    #35 12 years ago
    Quoted from tk375:

    No Offense Taken, I do see it over MM, AFM, TOTAN and TAF in that order. TZ is really not close to be a top ten IMO but it is. Great table and very very modable that's for sure.

    SM is definitely a great game, and I guarantee that it'll be a hot item in the future like MM.

    #36 12 years ago

    This problem happens with people making their lists of favorite movies, as well; the newer movies are the ones more people have seen so they make more peoples' lists. But if you sort movies by box office take adjusted for inflation, you then get Star Wars and Gone With The Wind in the top 5, instead of Avatar and Titanic.

    Unfortunately, we don't have any way to compare pinball machines like we have the box office take for movies, but the analogy is still workable. Movies like Citizen Kane were pioneering movies of their day; they established conventions that are still used in movies to this day, but if you tried showing it to a group of teenagers nowadays, they would likely find it too slow-paced and boring. Thus it is with pinball; you can't even really compare straight-up pinball machines like Space Shuttle and Twilight Zone. Even though Space Shuttle was a great machine for its day, it seems hopelessly quaint when compared to all there is to do in Twilight Zone. Yet Space Shuttle is still a great machine.

    #37 12 years ago
    Quoted from tk375:

    I think SM is the best game ever created! [] Seriously!

    I notice the Pinside crew have it as no.1 in their ratings.

    #38 12 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    Despite the 'impressive' assortment of popular titles, I find it to be one of the most boring collections I've seen.

    I also met a collector whos collection ONLY consisted of the top Bally/Williams machines... they were all there: MM, CC, MB, AFM, TotAN, CV etc etc... and it was very boring to see... he asked me what I'd like to play, and I was thinking, well, none of them really... I've played them all before... now if there was a Raven there, or a Hollywood Heat... then I'd have been impressed and eager to play that game not many have and the game I've never played before... I didn't say that of course because he was clearly very proud of his collection, so I played the CC, just to see if the bad guys had the same problem mine had of dropping down accidentally...

    It seemed to me that he'd got those titles not because those just happened to be the games he really liked, but more as a way to impress others... It had the opposite effect on me though

    #39 12 years ago

    If I don't like a highly rated pin, i'm not afraid to share that opinion. I love MM & MB but I don't understand the love affair with TAF & LOTR. With LOTR, I haven't really played it enough but TAF I won't even put quarters in anymore.

    There are games outside of the top 100 that I think are better than some in the top 10 but that's like my opinion, man.

    #40 12 years ago
    Quoted from davewtf:

    I haven't really played it enough but TAF I won't even put quarters in anymore.

    I know exactly what you mean, I feel the same way with TZ, and like I said, it's a great machine, but to be #2 on the list to me it's a disgraced. but then again, it's only the people that vote in this group. there's never gonna be an official list. Your list is the official and most important one.

    #41 12 years ago
    Quoted from StevenP:

    I agree with your statements except for the first sentence. I really like both MM and MB because they are fun games with a lot of satisfying shots (along with good sound and humor, which are secondary to me but still factors). I played them when they came out in the 90's and really liked them a lot then, more than many other contemporary games. Depth is not critical for my enjoyment. I'm also a fan of many EMs, and they aren't "deep" as DMD fans define the term. Good shots and balanced scoring, plus the urge to "play just one more game" are indicators of fun factor for me.

    Well, there is the point though. It's all opinion, and you form your own lists. I like MM, and think its fun, but I don't think it would even crack my top 20. MB I have never really liked. Who knows, that may change. To some, that may be their 1 and 2.

    There are so many ways to appreciate machines that it’s senseless to pit them against each other. Having said that, the ratings do offer a beginners guide, which I'm sure we have all looked at for just that, guidance, prior to really knowing many of them, and being able to know what we want as individuals.

    #42 12 years ago

    I know I've said this before but I use the rating as more of a guide. I personally love the Addams Family and think it is in about where it should be. Medieval Madness is maybe a top 20 for me but still fun, but enough people really like it so it rates where it is. I also really love lower ranked games, like Ripley's T3, Wheel of fortune even World Poker Tour. My point is I play a game and if I like it, I like it, don't really care where it sits on the list. Sometimes that's a good thing because you can get a real bargain that way.

    #43 12 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    There are so many ways to appreciate machines that it’s senseless to pit them against each other.

    I'll give a big +1 on that one! Personally I feel I'm going through some sort of pinball crisis at the moment, just trying to figure out what it is about pinball that makes one game more desireable than the other, and for me, gameplay and depth is far from all there is to it... there are many many factors involved, and I'm persoanally struggling to get my head round how important each factor is! Gameplay, art and sounds are the obvious top 3 in my book... rarity is also a factor for me, toys can also feature... good dot's help too... throw in nostalgia, humour, build quality and that hard quantify 'just one more game' factor and you've got a pretty complex mix of reasons to chose one game against the next...

    #44 12 years ago
    Quoted from pinballslave:

    I also met a collector whos collection ONLY consisted of the top Bally/Williams machines... they were all there: MM, CC, MB, AFM, TotAN, CV etc etc... and it was very boring to see... he asked me what I'd like to play, and I was thinking, well, none of them really... I've played them all before...

    +1 been there....

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