(Topic ID: 71011)

Bentplastic.com


By Onelastime

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 105 posts
  • 56 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by RazerX
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 8 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    IMG_1423.JPG
    IMG_1422.JPG
    IMG_1426.JPG
    IMG_1425.JPG
    IMG_1421.JPG
    IMG_1420.JPG
    IMG_1419.JPG
    gump.jpg

    There are 105 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #51 6 years ago

    I understand that, but it's trickier in this particular case, as Wrong Crowd and BentPlastic are selling their own products, not someone else's. Or at least, that's what I thought was happening.

    #52 6 years ago

    I say it is voting with your wallet .

    #53 6 years ago
    Quoted from Fatsquatch:

    I understand that, but it's trickier in this particular case, as Wrong Crowd and BentPlastic are selling their own products, not someone else's. Or at least, that's what I thought was happening.

    Yea, it's not likely that the products are absolutely identical. But if B.P. has found a material that does the same job and costs 50% less to make... that's just progress.

    All that aside - there are a lot of good ideas that have yet to make it to production. A lot of products to develop. I don't think the pinball community was crying out for a cheaper glare guard. It would definitely have been cooler if his efforts were focused on something new.

    #54 6 years ago

    quailty kinds sucks, but you get the point

    #55 6 years ago
    Quoted from luch:

    I say it is voting with your wallet .

    True, but if you happen to like a supplier/maker you give him an opportunity to win your vote. There's nothing wrong with that.

    #57 6 years ago
    Quoted from dkpinball:

    True, but if you happen to like a supplier/maker you give him an opportunity to win your vote. There's nothing wrong with that.

    he has posted on this thread but has not offered to match or lower his price .

    #58 6 years ago

    I wonder if Hank patented his "Shine Guard"

    #59 6 years ago

    Yeah I prefer hanks shine guard its free to make almost free.

    #60 6 years ago
    Quoted from mwong168:

    I wonder if Hank patented his "Shine Guard"
    ยป YouTube video

    wonder if I should consider this for my Black Spiderman ? love the stapling attachment WTF

    #61 6 years ago

    We all know there was no real stables in there he acts dumb, but he isn't that dumb.

    #62 6 years ago

    Hank not is real name, isn't he Keith Elwin's brother I'm pretty sure they have all the pinball movies on that channel too.

    #63 6 years ago
    Quoted from metahugh:

    The question is why bother making anything for pinball if someone is just going to copy it and undercut the person who came up with the idea in the first place.

    I guess jpolfer downvoted my comment since he/she likes to copycat products as well.

    It takes no effort to copy someone else's product and sell it as your own, I'm surprised anyone in this hobby would condone it considering there are so few individuals actually innovating and making a unique product. Of course I am talking to the same crowd that thinks stealing Nucore is ethical as well.

    #64 6 years ago
    Quoted from jjsrt8:

    Hank not is real name, isn't he Keith Elwin's brother I'm pretty sure they have all the pinball movies on that channel too.

    killjoy.

    #65 6 years ago
    Quoted from metahugh:

    I guess jpolfer downvoted my comment since he/she likes to copycat products as well.
    It takes no effort to copy someone else's product and sell it as your own, I'm surprised anyone in this hobby would condone it considering there are so few individuals actually innovating and making a unique product. Of course I am talking to the same crowd that thinks stealing Nucore is ethical as well.

    #66 6 years ago

    IMHO, some of the statements in this thread about pricing and innovation are absolute rubbish.

    The biggest cost in innovating something new for a micromarket like pinball is the nonrecurring expense of the innovator's time. Because volume is so small in a micromarket, an innovator needs to make a reasonable margin on sales to justify their time to bring a new product to market.

    It's easy to reward a copycat for coming along later and "making it cheaper". But don't confuse "making it cheaper" with innovation or progress. In most cases, there isn't any novel or technological advancement involved. The copycat is simply willing to accept a lower margin because they don't have upfront expenses to recover. In large markets, an innovator can still do well with a very small market share. Not so in a micromarket.

    Which begs the question... why bother innovating anything for pinball if the community isn't going to support the innovation? I've seen a lot of motivated people work hard to make contributions to this hobby, only to exit with frustration because the community decided to embrace "cheaper" copycat products.

    Randy

    #67 6 years ago

    dmod: true what you say, but it's just human nature. cheap price = another game eventually or even more little mods.
    I bought some at expo for $10 each and they function just like the "real" ones I bought for $15.
    So technically, I've supported both companies.

    #68 6 years ago

    The conversation is getting pretty deep with points about innovation and research & development...and I can respect that...but I'd just like to remind everyone that the thread started off discussing a piece of plastic with a bend in it.

    #69 6 years ago

    Fair point... but without being overly dramatic, here's how some of us look at it. Kim can't say this without coming off like an ass (I've been there) so I'll say it:

    Kim had an idea. He invented something new, had it made, and promoted it at shows. I've seen him give glare guards away for free to help get the word out and promote the idea. It's not a huge business, he's not getting a lot of income from it, nor is it (I think) patented... but it was his idea, his contribution, his attempt to add something new to the hobby.

    There was some value in his idea because you purchased five of them from another vendor.

    Your wallet will thank you for it but Kim probably won't... and it's not really about the complexity of the idea or the $40. It's more about rewarding someone else for copying an idea in order to make a buck.

    Anyway this isn't meant to target you or any other individual, but you were the first to respond.

    #70 6 years ago

    If someone comes up with a great idea and they put forth the time to bring it from conception to production and don't try for a patent then they are at risk of it being copied. Plain and simple. I like cheaper products

    #71 6 years ago
    Quoted from NinJaBooT:

    If someone comes up with a great idea and they put forth the time to bring it from conception to production and don't try for a patent then they are at risk of it being copied. Plain and simple. I like cheaper products

    True. But have you ever looked into how much money it costs to get something patented? We are talking in the thousands of dollars. Not something most will do if they are a hobbyist with a unique idea in a micromarket.

    #72 6 years ago

    It's also an economies of scale argument too though. I'd hardly call this product much of an innovation. As mentioned in this thread already by others, some would not buy a simple piece of plastic with a bend in it for $15 on principle alone, so you've alienated many potential customers in your micro market right off the bat. Even made in small quantities, the mark up on these things is in the many thousands of percent as evidenced by what the other guy can sell them for and still make a margin. Pure greed. He has had plenty of time to adjust his pricing model to prevent this. Bent plastic is simply a natural progression in a free market. I'm just surprised it took this long for someone to do it.

    The product that Dmod has made is true innovation that took real time and effort develop. I'm not sure how much he researched his price point, but while he has not priced me out, it's at the top of the range I would pay and I'll only do it for a select few machines. You lower the price by a certain amount and I would be tempted to put em in all my dmd games. Same thing is what's happening with bent plastic.

    BTW, who here shops at Wal-Mart?

    #73 6 years ago
    Quoted from ChadH:

    Not something most will do if they are a hobbyist with a unique idea in a micromarket.

    Then your at risk of being copied when you advertise on a site like pinside. How many different versions of mirror blades are on here? I own 3 sets from 3 different manufacturers/hobbyist. Don't forget, we are just talking about a bent piece of plastic

    #74 6 years ago

    ColorDMD is somewhat unique in its complexity. The implementation and ongoing support is hard to copy and requires quite a bit of upfront expense even for an imitator.

    Patents are limited in their protection and only effective with deep pockets. Support and protection for new ideas and products really needs to come from the community. Like many others, I have some cool ideas for pinball that I've opted not to develop just because they would be too easy to copy.

    #75 6 years ago
    Quoted from NinJaBooT:

    Then your at risk of being copied when you advertise on a site like pinside. How many different versions of mirror blades are on here? I own 3 sets from 3 different manufacturers/hobbyist. Don't forget, we are just talking about a bent piece of plastic

    You can't patent things like gears, bolts or a bend in materials you can however copyright the name.
    If you are a real hobbyist you can make a jig up and bend them yourself.
    I make my own and didn't market them because it is a cheeky thing to do.
    No, I don't shop at Walmart and I don't sell my Shine Suppressors.

    http://www.parts-express.com/abs-textured-plastic-sheet-1-16-thick-x-12-x-24--265-940

    Makes two.

    #76 6 years ago
    Quoted from tracelifter:

    You can't patent things like gears, bolts or a bend in materials you can however copyright the name.
    If you are a real hobbyist you can make a jig up and bend them yourself.
    I make my own and didn't market them because it is a cheeky thing to do.
    No, I don't shop at Walmart and I don't sell my Shine Suppressors.
    http://www.parts-express.com/abs-textured-plastic-sheet-1-16-thick-x-12-x-24--265-940
    Makes two.

    How do you bend it?

    #77 6 years ago
    Quoted from Dmod:

    ColorDMD is somewhat unique in its complexity. The implementation and ongoing support is hard to copy and requires quite a bit of upfront expense even for an imitator.
    Patents are limited in their protection and only effective with deep pockets. Support and protection for new ideas and products really needs to come from the community. Like many others, I have some cool ideas for pinball that I've opted not to develop just because they would be too easy to copy.

    Cool ideas that you wont release because they are too easy to copy so nobody gets them? This seems a little silly to me. I realize you are a business, but to hold back an idea because it won't make you any money is foolish. Rather than give away a non money making idea to better the hobby you are gonna say it won't make you enough money so nobody can have it?

    #78 6 years ago

    I've worked several contracts in the past that were specifically to take an existing device from another company and redesign a cheaper competitive product.

    #79 6 years ago
    Quoted from Shredso:

    How do you bend it?

    The Kreskin method.

    #80 6 years ago
    Quoted from Shredso:

    Cool ideas that you wont release because they are too easy to copy so nobody gets them? This seems a little silly to me. I realize you are a business, but to hold back an idea because it won't make you any money is foolish. Rather than give away a non money making idea to better the hobby you are gonna say it won't make you enough money so nobody can have it?

    Obvoiusly Dmod is in it for the money. This type of thing seems to bother a lot of people, but to me there's nothing wrong with that. Color dmd is a great product.

    #81 6 years ago

    I'm tapping out of the discussion, 'cause it has started to feel like buyer "morality" has come into play, and I think that's 100% horseshit when we're talking about a rather simple and patent-free product in a Capitalist society.

    This is a product that was developed by Wrong Crowd to also "make a buck", as it was never being sold at cost merely for the betterment of the hobby. All parties involved want to make money from the big-spending modern pinball crowd, and if there was no money to be made, the product wouldn't exist. I can find no saints in this particular free enterprise arena for which I am "morally" bound.

    I guess someone needs to compile an official list of which specific vendors we are to exclusively use when buying certain products. Right now, I have no idea who I'm supposed to be "rewarding" when I'm buying pinballs, rubbers, translites, bulbs, mirror blades, toppers, playfield glass, coils, coin doors, switches, etc., etc., etc., etc.

    I guess we also need such a list for non-pinball items, like TVs, cars, bicycles, and so on and so forth.

    #82 6 years ago
    Quoted from ChadH:

    True. But have you ever looked into how much money it costs to get something patented? We are talking in the thousands of dollars. Not something most will do if they are a hobbyist with a unique idea in a micromarket.

    Quoted from Dmod:

    Patents are limited in their protection and only effective with deep pockets.

    From someone who is in the technology software and services arena, I can tell you that a patent will cost tens-of-thousands and I concur with dmod about the deep pockets required to protect and defend it. FWIW, good biz decision by Wrong Crowd not to spend that money.

    #83 6 years ago

    Reminds me of the time I saw a guy copying the pages from a friends text book back when I was in college. His answer was, "guess they shouldn't be charging more than 8 cents a page.". I stood back and thought about it and kind of had to agree with him though I knew it was wrong.

    #84 6 years ago

    ......and that's an expensive place to source this material! Bought in only somewhat larger quantities this material is less than half that cost.
    Scott

    #85 6 years ago

    Skipping past all the posts related to who I can buy from and who I cannot, I'll move forwards and share my experience with the product and service being provided. I was the first person to place an order through the website. The product must have been shipped immediately as I received it today. Packaging is top notch. Shipping is fast. Website is clear, easy to navigate and provides cost of the product including shipping. I don't think it could get any better or easier. I took photos of the package, unboxing, the product out of the box and installed. I will check back with updates on how it performs, if it warps or if it stay's as perfect as day one. There's not much to it really. It's Bent Plastic.

    FYI - We are so happy with their product that we have asked BentPlastic to become a sponsor for the Pinball BBQ 2014. They have generously stepped forward with the highest sponsorship we offer to new sponsors for the event. Thank you BentPlastic. We look forward to sharing your product with local enthusiasts attending our event.

    IMG_1419.JPG
    IMG_1420.JPG
    IMG_1421.JPG
    IMG_1425.JPG
    IMG_1426.JPG
    IMG_1422.JPG
    IMG_1423.JPG

    #86 6 years ago

    I bought 100 of them and they are on all the DMD games at the Ann Arbor pinball museum. Bentplastic is local to me so i didn't have to deal with shipping. Frankly i had never seen the product before, didn't know about it either. He approached me thinking it would be a good idea. Now that they are all installed i have to say it's an excellent idea. Just have to remember to slide it off before i remove the top glass...

    I did complain though, this thing doesn't work worth a damn on the Circus Voltaire! And it works even worse on Revenge from Mars...

    #87 6 years ago

    Kim had a great idea and I have purchased quite a few of his glare guards. With that said, I am surprised his concept was not copied much sooner do to the relatively high cost of what it is...bent plastic and the ease to reproduce.

    #88 6 years ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    I did complain though, this thing doesn't work worth a damn on the Circus Voltaire!

    Just mount under glass and invert, it works like a champ.

    #89 6 years ago

    Can you combine shipping? When I put two in the cart, it calculated $5 each for shipping.

    #90 6 years ago

    Purchased five guards three days ago and the (insured) package arrived this morning.

    The ordering process, shipping, packaging and product are all pro.

    #91 6 years ago
    Quoted from Fatsquatch:

    I'm tapping out of the discussion, 'cause it has started to feel like buyer "morality" has come into play, and I think that's 100% horseshit when we're talking about a rather simple and patent-free product in a Capitalist society.

    All that aside, it still would be nice if the OP would make a monetary donation to Pinside, especially if he's going to contribute nothing other than "check out my website" posts.

    -1
    #92 6 years ago

    Ok, I get the fact this website is NOT free. The owners have generously poured time and money into it so we could enjoy, learn and experience many things. I for one am grateful for the experience.

    If you in some way profit from advertising or from a sale on here,I agree it would be nice if you could show a token of your appreciation and support the effort made by so many.

    However I'm not sure the advertising police (Fee/donation police) need to point out (dictate) what a pinhead should or should not do. Suggestions are always welcome and encouraged, but to those who feel the need to "call out" and disparage every person who makes a dollar or two should maybe take a different tone. Perhaps the sellers intent is to make enough profit off the product to offset what was invested in the product line before one can afford to do such.

    #93 6 years ago
    Quoted from Jgel:

    I was wondering the same thing. If he's not breaking any patents then what's the problem. No one got pissed when multiple people stated making pinball LED's.

    It's.... bent plastic

    Next in the product line:

    metal balls,

    flexible rubber bands.

    #94 6 years ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    Just have to remember to slide it off before i remove the top glass...

    For location use and ease of maintenance you can install them between the head and bottom cabinet.
    No need to remove them when removing the glass and they can't be stolen with the head tightened down.

    #95 6 years ago

    Great idea- now if someone would just figure out how to copy pinball coil wrappers!

    3 weeks later
    #96 6 years ago

    So now that time has passed, is anyone seeing more bend in their bent plastic? Has your plastic straightened itself out from extreme play? When you place your bent plastic into the channel, does it slip out easily or does it stay in?

    #97 6 years ago
    Quoted from RazerX:

    Obvoiusly Dmod is in it for the money.

    Offtopic (for this thread) ... but that isn't what I recall from his talks at TPF'13.
    IIRC DMOD started the product because he wanted it for one of his machines... it was peer pressure from his local pinball hobbyists that encouraged him to develop it into a patent-pending business plan.

    I for one am glad they did.

    #98 6 years ago

    I've had one for a few weeks and it performs fine. It's still bent as it was when I got it.

    #99 6 years ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Offtopic (for this thread) ... but that isn't what I recall from his talks at TPF'13.
    IIRC DMOD started the product because he wanted it for one of his machines... it was peer pressure from his local pinball hobbyists that encouraged him to develop it into a patent-pending business plan.
    I for one am glad they did.

    Quoted from Dmod:

    Like many others, I have some cool ideas for pinball that I've opted not to develop just because they would be too easy to copy.

    #100 6 years ago

    If I was really in it for the money, I suppose I'd just wait for someone else to create something and copy it. Or spend my time on something more profitable. Or bend plastic.

    Randy

    There are 105 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside