I completely agree with you but I already have a job with very competitive benefits and I get to work on things I love. Sure on occasion you get stuck on something that kinda sucks but that is pretty rare. I was not trying to attack Stern, its just the nature of the beast. They are in a very difficult position trying to get good programmers. There is just way to much demand on talent and that talent has way to many opportunities. What young talented Software Engineer is going to go to Stern to code the Munsters and pass on, the Tesla, Space X, Microsoft, Apple, Google... of the world?

One who wants to work in the pinball industry. And if that's the case there is really not a safer bet than Stern.

By the same token, why would Stern want to try to hire brilliant young programmers who don't give a shit about pinball? They'd be better off letting them go to Google, or Apple, or Tesla, and recruiting young talented software engineers who want to work at Stern.

You make it sound like the software guys at Stern couldn't get jobs anywhere else and had to settle. You couldn't be more wrong.

Can OP change the thread title to "Darscot's feelings on coding" please?

I prefer we get back to bitching about voting

No poll can be added at this point.

Another feature no longer available by those that might be offended by such a thing.

They should get back to snorting condoms and eating tidepods

The guys there are very talented at what they do. I'm not knocking them in any way. Some great and passionate pinball people. There is just very few of them. No one is lining up to work at in that environment in 2018 when there is so much more out there. I was only commenting on how hard it will be for Stern to get good programmers. As usual on pinside it always ends up with a protect the hive mentality, I didn't spank anyones baby. I haven't said anything that isn't true or relevant. Suggesting Stern should just let all the good people go to the other places is in no way going to help them get good people when they are clearly struggling to push out code.

Yes our state is poopy to say the least.

Huh. As a software engineer you almost never get to pick the projects you're working on. I work for a software company involved in email marketing; we write tools that help test emails to make sure they don't look broken on the latest iPhone or Android device. It's not sexy, but the email marketing community is filled with great people and the challenges are super interesting even if its boring cocktail party conversation material. My dream job would have probably been to work in games (Bungie, 343, etc) but I have personal obligations to my family and I'm pretty tied to New England for them. If I were 25 like Tim Sexton and didn't have a wife and a kid I'd probably take the dive and try to work for Stern. I don't care for Mustang Pinball or WWE but if I have a chance to bring a physical game that will carry my name in the credits and would be awesome to talk about, that sounds pretty good.

I'm sure you'd do just fine coding at Stern, o-din. Aren't you still adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep your mind, you know, uh, limber?

I hope his yelp standing is better than yours.

I don't know man. I've heard they have a top notch cafeteria in that place.

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At the very least could someone tell me who John Wort is?

There many talented software engineers who are not “young”. From my experience the character of an engineer matters much than age. Yes, you do have to be willing to learn continuously to stay employed. But a lot of “old guys” like me have been doing that all along.

He's a guy that sells cowboy boots, but that isn;t important right now.

So you aren't knocking the people who work there, but you claim that "no one" wants to work there, therefore, the people who are there were hired off the street without other offers or employment and are not "good programmers."

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The only reason I mentioned young, is I suspect most older guys have been doing this a long time and are established and with that experience comes salary. I think Stern needs a handful of young guys with a guy like Lyman as a lead. I get hounded weekly by recruiters it just comes with experience. Maybe Stern has deeper pockets than it appears but I don't think they can afford the older guys. If I was Stern I would start having code camps. Get kids in there and try and grab a few diamonds in the rough. Try and generate some excitement in the youth.

Stern is going to have a great deal of difficulty recruiting established SEs. Good SEs are in demand, Stern would have to recruit them from existing positions. They could go after new grads that don't have jobs yet. Its really not that hard to comprehend.

They JUST HIRED new software people. Who already had "existing positions" elsewhere. In 2018 when "no one" is lining up to work there.

It's really not that hard to comprehend.

They announced one person and they have been behind on code for how many years now. This is pointless, your completely detached from reality.

Well, we agree on one thing at least. "your" on point with that.

Ha....this is your first time isn't it?

That’s definitely true. Younger guys are willing to work for less. One thing I like about contracting is that I get a real-world check on my market value every 3-6 months (contract renewal). It’s super-easy to fire a contract software engineer at any time. It’s made me “hungry” again.

I can tell you from experience it's much hard programming a pin than building one.

I'm certain Stern's biggest bottleneck is "not enough programmers". They already had a track record of slow code releases, and that was BEFORE hanging the 900 lb albatross that is a full HD LCD around their necks.

It’s got to be hard to make a pin feel unique too. Some games feel like very similar code.

This is how Alien is/was done, and I don't personally recommend it. Joe and Brian did a great job, but it really adds a lot of complication and slows down the process even when it's working out. I'm firmly in the "pinball should be hands on, in person" camp now.

Add to that, not having a common framework. I can't speak for all the programmers there, but during a conversation I've been told Lyman has his own custom framework he prefers to work from that is different from everyone else, which of course makes it hard for anyone else to update his code (or help work on it). Not impossible, but takes more time to sort through how each task is handled. It's my understanding that management is trying to get everyone on the same framework, but you know how stubborn programmers can be to change.
And we wonder why batman code is still at revision .88 a year and a half after it's unveiling at Pinball Expo?

If Stern is short handed with programmers after recent hiring of two talents, they should hire two more junior guys with less job experience but good skills. Those extra hands can be helping in a number of ways, including diminishing current code backlog. Or one could be dedicated to learning Lyman's system and help polish his nuts

In regards to what programmers want to relocate to suburbs of Benton WI, I agree that wage needs to be competitive for the task. So how much is that? (maybe $60k a year as an on-site programmer/consultant or $60k as a full time "employee with benefits" ) or are we crossing the $100k salary territory? You tell me the correct figure.

Now if you are fair and decide to offer the correct amount, you will experience an abundance of talent from which to choose. If a company doesn't want to pay the threshold, then they are to blame for not finding anyone to hire - Unrealistic Expectations!! equals #NoSoup4U

Is there any evidence that Stern's having problems filing coding spots? We can all agree that all things equal, no one wants to live in Benton. But otherwise, the only data we have is that Stern just hired some coders, and there's one software engineer in this thread that would never want to work for Stern. Not sure that translates to "Stern's trying to hire but can't attract good people because they're too cheap, too boring, and don't have enough microwaves."

I have no evidence about Stern specifically. I just know how hard it is to hire talent and I work in a place that is very popular. So either Stern just has done nothing about the coding issues for the last couple years or (and I hope this is the issue) they are having trouble getting people. I can totally relate to how it would be for them to get guys.

They need to steal Dinesh and Gilfoyle away from Pied Piper. They are some bad ass programmers!

Those guys are old news, Stern needs the stallions

People say to me all the time you guys should do theme X, most recently it was 'the three stooges'. Often my response is, "not going to happen", to which they will say 'Its a great theme, pinball people would love it, why not?", to which I'll say "I'm not a fan of the theme, and no way I am going to spend a year of my life with X" . Over a year with Houdini, not an issue, a great theme, a year with the Three stooges, not going to happen. Now I am lucky that I am in a position where I can say that. I'm sure at Stern sometimes you get stuck with a theme you may not like. I know for me it would be very hard to create a great ruleset and great code if I did not enjoy the theme. Great pinball comes from passion and if you are not passionate about what you are doing it will show in the results.

I was not a programmer before I started working at American Pinball. I was an executive that led teams of programmers, engineers and other technologists. I do have a degree in computer science and have done plenty of programming over the years, including some custom machines, but it is not what I did day to day for a living. But after working my ass off for 30 years, I came to the point where I decided it was time to 'marry my work to my play', and when the opportunity presented itself, I made the leap. The pay is far, far less than what I was making or could make elsewhere, and that is why I can choose to be picky about what I work on. Not making enough money to work on something I don't want to work on. But at the end of the day, I'm bringing a pinball machine to life, and not many people get to do that.

I doubt anyone works in pinball thinking they are going to make big money, you do it because it is pinball, while hoping to get fair and reasonable compensation for the work you do.

Now I need to get back to working on some code.

Well said.

That's another "old as f**k" license I can't wrap my head around. What would you DO in the game? Poke each other? Do people remember the movies and shorts well enough to base modes around them?

The arcade game was pretty dumb (like a bad version of food fight)

But the PC game was halfway decent (basically the plot of blues brothers, but you perform odd jobs to earn money)

Still, not sure how you would implement that into pinball?

Whoever decides to get into programming better be prepared to wrap their head around old as f**k licenses, because that's what pinside wants!

And we all know what pinside wants, pinside gets!

I loved those Cinemaware games on my Amiga.

Yes, Pinside got exactly what they wanted...

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To be fair, if pinside had demanded a Supreme pinball machine, there would be a SuperLE version available at twice the price.

I think you mean code monkey.

Good designers move off projects they don’t like and have that mobility because they are in demand. Yes it’s product marketing or management that normally steers the ship, but if you are in a world where engineering is just “implementation” - get out of that place.

One? You need to do some catching up. Try the stern of the union updates...

But but... lcds are cheaper!!!!

Does anyone know how many actual Software Engineers they have on staff? Do they let anyone inside the software department. Seems like lots of info and news gets out about the factory floor but nothing ever seems to come out of the software side other than code is coming.

You can look them up on linkedin if you want to see credentials. Most of the Stern staff is there under Stern Pinball.
They have a bunch of employees in the technical area which is off limits. This includes designers, programmers (software engineers), graphics, workflow, gameplay tester, GUI, etc. Probably a dozen guys in the software area and 4 designers.

Ben, I can empathize with that statement. I went through a similar feeling with my line of work. Try 70 plus hours of development work with zero respect or appreciation and no pay. That does not include all of the other resources of mine that were sucked up with no compensation from that group. I stopped putting in my 'best effort'. They noticed. Instead of asking me what it would take to get things done, they magically had money to go elsewhere.
Turned out to be a good thing for me. More time for family and 'paying' customers.

So I noticed Ben tweeted this, clearly cutting this before he tore down his shopbot that he's trying to sell:
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I couldn't help myself but mock up what the whitewood would look like with inserts (making assumptions what the holes are of course).
ben_heck_next_game_whitewood3 (resized).jpg

Ben, I hope you continue to work on this and get a flipping game going.

Yea, but Indiana sucks, AZ doesn't. We deserve it more!

It shoots really well! A few shots and mechs that have never been done in pinball before!

I take it when Ben moved into a house, he didn't move far from Madison