Received my first damaged machine from Beltman. Definitely not the A team. They just wanted to drop it on the lawn and leave. Had to show them the other games Beltman had delivered giving them no reason not to bring it inside.

Had to help them given they really weren’t into doing their job.

Game arrived with a bent leg, no other damage.

Tipped them $40 for the inconvenience I may have caused and they returned the favor by leaving their Wendy’s garbage on the ground before leaving.

Guess I got lucky!

So do you have a copy of the shipping documents and bill of landing? Do the documents identify the damage shown in the photos? Also did the person on the receiving end inspect and note the damage on the bill of landing? If no to the above then you will have no recourse.

This is some first rate bullshit.

Just the "sent one guy, no pallet, no pallet jack, asked - insert anyone - here to help him is all I needed to hear. Absolutely no way they continue if that's me, gtfo my property, never return, I'll do anything but that. Holy shit.

Great that they ruled in your favor. Before I ship a game I take pictures and a video going through the machine, showing all areas, during the video I do a voice over giving the date, who I was shipping it with, etc.

Haven't had anything go wrong yet so it seems like overkill, but if I ever end up in a situation like yours I want my ass covered every which way I can.

Sucks they made you jump through so many hoops.

All this aside...I wonder how long until Beltmann announces they are no longer serving the pinball-moving market?
Any business is constantly weighing the benefits of taking business versus the PITA of taking business.

I'm not taking sides in your situation, but I do question why you would go so far as to post it publicly.

If it were me, I would have refused to let anyone pick up a one-of-a-kind machine without me being there in person. Even if you were stood up the first day, you could/should have made yourself present for the second day. I would have been there and taken photos and - if I thought the guy who showed up was inept - woulda refused to let them take it. Unless you are a heart surgeon who was operating on a 6 year old that day...you shoulda missed work.

Whether any of us like it or not, we are living in a country that is in crisis...that means, among other things, the jamokes who are gonna show up to handle shipping might just not be Harvard graduates. More like Sing Sing graduates. If you think it's easy to run a freight business, think again. Employees, taxes, regulations....I wouldn't touch it for $600.

Want premium service? Pay for it. I'm more than willing to bet if you had looked harder, you could have found two very competent guys who would have showed up on time, to the minute, and personally treated your machine with the greatest of care. The only catch is you would have paid around $30,000 for that.

I don't think you should have to pay extra to get stuff shipped without damaging it. The bare minimum of shipping anything should be:

1) Get it to where it is supposed to be going.
2) Don't damage it.

If a company can't accomplish that, then they shouldn't be doing business. It isn't a pinball specific thing to expect.

On the other hand, shit happens. That's why you should pay for insurance, which was done in this case. Having to go to court blows though. I think the insurer in this case just hoped the customer would go away.

My first pinball purchase a few years back was delivered by Beltmann and I had a very similar experience. When they delivered it it was wrapped. I asked if I should unwrap and plug it in to verify it works before they left. They just said "no, you're good... if there are issues just contact us within 24 hours." Find out after they left that they damaged the underside of the machine. When I contacted them they said "We have no such 24 hour policy. You should have inspected before the delivery guys left. You signed the delivery sheet and we're not liable." Debate ensues from there. We swapped pictures from the seller and the guys that picked it up. Based on pictures "they" took and shared with me from pickup looked like whatever jack they used to lift it up and onto the truck was lifting it up from the center of the underside of the machine and not the load-bearing sides. Ultimately they denied my claim.

Thankfully I used my Chase credit card for the payment to Beltmann. Not sure if they disputed on my behalf, withheld payment, or whatever, but ultimately I got my payment back from Chase and I never ended up paying for the shipment. I was able to use that cost to repair the button of the machine.

That was my first and last experience with Beltmann, and I will never use them again.

Unfortunately it may come to a point where all games are required be crated. Even that won't stop a fork from from entering...

I've heard this from a car dealer: when a shipping company starts up, they usually do a good job and care a great deal about their customers while they are getting established. As the years go by, quality goes down as the company looks to cut costs everywhere and the shipping service suffers to the point where it finally becomes unusable. Then the cycle repeats.

Good luck collecting on your verdict.
This all sucks and unfortunately getting a verdict probably won't help much.

Is this the machine you wrote me about looking for an estimate?
Was any of the info I provided you included in your claim?

Mind if I ask why you are goading them (almost begging them) to appeal the decision? Why wouldn't you let the 30 days go and then look to enforce your judgment? Picking or instigating a fight just makes more work and drama for yourself.

It is not uncommon for people to subcontract and then ultimately the subcontractor (responsible for the damage etc) to hire the lawyer and effectively defend all the parties as they are ultimately the one that will (or won't) pay as the case may be. Multiple lawyers are unnecessary and expensive if everyone's interests are aligned and if there can only be one payout and one party paying it.

All that said - I hope you get the money to fix your machine and I hope it gets fixed to your satisfaction.

I quit using Beltmann and only buy from people who can pallet/wrap leaving me other options for transport. They create more problems than they solve and are expensive and slow while doing it.

These types of scenarios are exactly why I generally refuse to get involved in shipping damage estimates or claims.

Agreed 100%.

I agree you should be able to hire a service and have it performed properly. But as I noted, this country is in crisis. Poor performance is becoming the norm. It's everywhere and it's not getting better.

I don't mean to be a dick...but I will also point out that each year a staggering number of people suffer death and disfigurement as a result of medical malpractice. So even in your own industry, there is human failing.

Shippers? My good friend has been a UPS driver 31 years. The stories he can tell...and guess what? The official UPS internal policy for ANY claim is to deny it. They will only begin reviewing a claim if it has been appealed. Think of all the old ladies who get told to piss off
...and do....just because they don't know any better.

Wow. Nice!
I figured they would try ignoring you for a while.

Could you not get reimbursed for your time in preparing all the documentation for the claim?

You're absolutely 100% correct.

And people suck.

Frankly though once they have your money, they have you over a barrel. Bend over and take it.

This goes for most service companies these days.

It doesn't help that the shipping/freight industry is absolutely ruthless with beyond razor thin margins....

Shortsighted companies chase margin over service and then are shocked Pikachu when people hate them...

Isn't most of what Beltman does subbed out to a third party? I think they just act as a broker and bid the job, so the experience can be greatly varied depending on who the last mile is on either end (there could even be more than one shipper in play). Regardless, if they are the frontman for the transaction they should have been more helpful, especially if you paid the extra insurance for $10k of coverage.

On the flip side of the coin and to parrot others on here, there is no way I would have allowed pickup without being present or at least had someone competent at the house to triage it. If you were willing to spend the 'money is no object' price that you did back in '07, it's surprising you weren't more cautious.

I'd like to counter everything you just said with this link to Beltmann's website:
https://www.beltmannlogistics.com/solutions/coin-op-and-gaming/

It's bordering on victim shaming to infer that even though a company specifically advertises specialty handling for special fragile products, including pinball games specifically, that we shouldn't have trusted them.

It was referrals of individuals on here and that website specifically that helped me to decide to place my trust in them. I haven't been vocal about my experience, but I have been watching for threads like these just to see if it was only my experience. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Generally no. Even in legal claims involving lawyers - you often do not get attorney's fees unless you actually incur them by paying an attorney. Even then to get them as part of your claim the contract you are fighting over needs to specifically permit them or you need to be entitled to them under the statute with respect to the type of claim you filed.

So he should've just let it go with a slap in a wrist because the country is f'd up??? C'mon man that is no excuse. I'm glad the OP went after them. NAVL, Beltman et. al.you name it have been a joke for a while. I stopped using them after they fubared my buddy's Gauntlet cab - still don't believe he received any compensation for. Believe me I've shipped my fair share of games and all it takes is one time and you're out.

This reminds me why I don't ship games, both as the buyer or seller. Thanks for the reminder and re-enforcing my stance on that.

And as an employer , I take exception to this. What if he is needed at work? If you have personal/vacation days that are taken with approval, no problem. But to equate what would have been calling in sick for pinball? That's B.S.

Which then absolutely contributes to this:

Gee, can't have it both ways

In My area Theres a 5,000 dollar limit in Small Claims Court and Lawyers cant speak for You.Games are well over 10k in many cases.
Then You may have to enforce the judgement .

Somewhat non-sequitur but I remember back around 15 years ago I used to ship in video machines & pins from Pilot Air. I bought no less than 350-400 machines from around 1993-2009. Pilot air was dirt cheap on shipping, only caveat was that YOU have to pick up your shipment at an airport of your choice. Anyway, they had this gimmick where you could rent their shipping container. This thing was the most well-built cabinet I'd ever seen. Think of a refrigerator-sized box with a front & rear opening door. It had eyelets built into the bottom inside so your load would be completely secured. All of this was built onto a very stout pallet. This would fit ANY pin and 99% of videos. I remember you could also buy their used-up ones for around 75-100. Man I wish I did! not sure if they still offer this service-or if Pilot Air is even in business anymore for that matter.

I had a arcade game shipped from Florida to Chicago via Pilot Air in the mid '90s. I get to one of their terminals by O'Hare, go the counter to let her know I'm here to pick up the game. I kid you not, I get a response saying that they can't find it. How the hell do misplace something that big in your own terminal??? Thinking it was some days later, I get a call stating they found it and come pick it up. Get there and get the bill of laden... they actually tried to charge me storage rental fees for those days my game was there missing because of their stupidity. I laughed and told her I'm not paying that part of the bill. It was unbeknownst to her what the details were. I know she had to make some calls to management explaining my stance on the bill. Incredible. That was the last time I used Pilot Air.

I'll just say this.

I feel your pain in having to deal with this but if it were my game, I'd have that glued up and looking like new in about 30 minutes.

If I were local to you, I'd stop over and take care of it for you.

Initially, I thought the game was trashed.

Typical PilotAir antics....they were cheap, but as far as being organized-forget it!

As I discovered recently, folks who move pinballs onesie twosie, not commercial companies but just a reliable guy helping load it in their vehicle and unload it at destination are few and far between, busy and seem to only cover regional areas. I have more time than many and I still can't justify the idea of 30 hours round trip to Eastern PA for one pin. I guess I may be in the minority, but another option or more people doing it onesie twosie would be great.

It’s good you won.
Insurance claims are usually pointless unless you have significant damage or loss.
That stated what’s significant is going to vary quite a bit.
Almost monthly I am asked to provide estimates for shipping damage.
I don’t mind replying to an email with a paragraph or two what I think it would take or may cost but will do no more than that.
Most insurance companies want itemized invoices on company letterhead they then set out to dissect that invoice ,drag their feet,ask for more information in an effort to wear out the claimant.
Itemization of something like this is pretty much impossible.
It can read something like
1) Remove and Reinstall playfield $600
2) remove all boards and wiring from cabinet $400
3) sand fill and structurally repair cabinet shell $500
Etc Etc

If I were actually doing this I would just say $2000 cabinet restoration.

They won’t accept that.

Every single time I have put the effort into meeting those terms the claimant has collected then not had the game fixed nor even offered me a single thing for my time or efforts so I refuse to do that anymore.
This is precisely why anything shipped should not only be fully insured but also extremely well packed and labeled. Don’t trust the process!
Nice games shouldn’t be shipped on the legs. The shipping company should not be trusted to pack it.
Labeling and photos pre and post shipping are important.
For example if labeled Do Not Forklift and then pierced with a forklift during transit you have a solid leg to stand on as long as you have photographic proof of the label in place at pick up.
Inspect at arrival to make sure there is no damage. If so note it on the BOL and have the driver sign.
If they will not let you inspect note that and have them sign that.
The shipping companies are relying on your lack of education in shipping matters and lack of patience in the process to avoid paying claims.
Your best defense is to do everything you can to avoid needing to make one.
No matter what sometimes things happen but you can definitely minimize it and have a little more confidence if you know a bit more heading into it.
Just a PSA on something I am well versed in.

This sums my last one (pretty much why it was 'the LAST one');

Seller;
- Reliable at conveying their wish to sell, receiving funds and providing access to their pin. Helpful when the buyer needs to scramble for information related to damage from shipping.
- Not reliable in preparing their pin for shipment, nor managing the shipping of their pin with a carrier.

Logistic Manager;
- Reliable at finding a transportation company to move the pin from point-to-point.
- Not reliable at preparing a pin for shipment, nor providing solid instructions that may protect the pin during transportation. Even worse at holding the transportation company accountable when their instructions are not followed; simply expecting their customer to file a claim.

Transportation Company;
- Reliable at loading/uploading whatever they have in their possession and maneuvering their vehicles to a destination.
- Not reliable at preparing a pin for shipment, nor following the instructions provided on the Bill of Lading. Even worse at keeping multiple-pieces together and enacting simple common sense that would reduce the damage inflicted to inappropriately packaged items in their possession.

Customer;
- Reliable at throwing money at a situation while expecting everyone else to handle that situation.
- Not reliable in finding a Logistics, nor Transportation Company that moves pinball machines with the care needed to preserve our hobby.

When there's a next time and it's out of my reach; I may reach out to Brobra in the Forum or someone similar who's interested in the hobby and can respect our equipment.

This is bonkers to me... What kind of a douche would have you go through all that trouble, knowing what your time is obviously worth based on your prices and work, and then not pay you for that time or give you a piece of their end? I'd tell people to pound sand or charge up front. F all that.

Never let a shipper pack your pin what are you guys thinking? If you’re selling a pin to ship you should pack and pallet the pin yourself! This shipping with the legs attached BS or having them wrap and pack your game is an absolute joke. The only thing the shipper should be using is a pallet jack lol..

Short answer, people suck. If i needed help from HEP on this the first paragraph of my email would be asking what I can pay Chris for his time to help. It’s just the kind and professional thing to do.