(Topic ID: 337519)

Beltmann-NAVL shipping damage court case verdict. BEWARE!

By jgelman

10 months ago


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  • 66 posts
  • 31 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by jgelman
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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    There are 66 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 10 months ago
    Quoted from High_End_Pins:

    *Snip*

    Nice games shouldn’t be shipped on the legs. The shipping company should not be trusted to pack it.

    I know I'm one of the FNGs 'round these here parts...but aren't these things designed with shipment in mind?

    Fold the back box with padding, strap the back box to the body, put it on it's back on a pallet and strap it down?

    Wrap appropriately, and send it.

    Why would you ship a game on its legs at all?

    #52 10 months ago
    Quoted from BMGfan:

    I know I'm one of the FNGs 'round these here parts...but aren't these things designed with shipment in mind?
    Fold the back box with padding, strap the back box to the body, put it on it's back on a pallet and strap it down?
    Wrap appropriately, and send it.
    Why would you ship a game on its legs at all?

    I have games shipped to me on the legs often.
    They are games I am going to restore anyway so I frequently I have a new cabinet for them.
    It does make it easy on the person sending it and the risk is pretty much none at all under those circumstances.
    After it’s done I wouldn’t do or suggest that at all though unless the owner insisted and took for responsibility for it.

    Very often these games shipped on the legs come in with bent legs,missing levelers ,chipped cabinets or smashed from the sides with buckled rails and bent hinges.
    Nothing that makes any difference to me for me purposes but would be horrible on something nice.

    #53 10 months ago
    Quoted from thekaiser82:

    Short answer, people suck. If i needed help from HEP on this the first paragraph of my email would be asking what I can pay Chris for his time to help. It’s just the kind and professional thing to do.

    I am clearly dealing with the wrong people.
    Thank you.

    #54 10 months ago

    I've shipped many games and pins with STI/BTI/NAVL, etc. One set of drivers put a RFM into a wall on a stairway landing many many years ago. One game damaged that required repair. In both instances, it was a PIA to deal with shipping company but persistence and documentation prevailed.

    In my experience, the drivers have no clue what they are transporting. It's always a great best practice to place signs on the exterior of shipments citing "High Claim Value", using tip 'n tells and other visual mgmt to aid in somebody taking an extra moment before considering whether or not to use a forklift to move your game.

    #55 10 months ago
    Quoted from AstonEnthusiast:

    I've shipped many games and pins with STI/BTI/NAVL, etc. One set of drivers put a RFM into a wall on a stairway landing many many years ago. One game damaged that required repair. In both instances, it was a PIA to deal with shipping company but persistence and documentation prevailed.
    In my experience, the drivers have no clue what they are transporting. It's always a great best practice to place signs on the exterior of shipments citing "High Claim Value", using tip 'n tells and other visual mgmt to aid in somebody taking an extra moment before considering whether or not to use a forklift to move your game.

    Great advice. Even if you hardly ever ship labels are worth the expense.

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    #56 10 months ago
    Quoted from jgelman:

    Jamesays, are you sure about that?
    https://selfhelp.courts.ca.gov/small-claims
    $5,000 if you are a business but $10,000 if you are an individual. If there is an unpaid judgment, there are many ways to enforce. If it is a business with assets, generally not an issue. The issue is if it is an individual without identifiable assets who does not have the integrity to pay. In that case, when you win, you still lose.
    On the comment about taking off work, I can tell you this. Working and doing my job is how I am able to pay people to do their jobs. It is problematic when I take off without pay to be available all day at someone's convenience where they want me available all morning and afternoon only to be told on short notice to be available the next day. This is especially the case for me where if I were to take off the following day, the health of others would be adversely affected. I need to plan a day off well in advance.
    As for this machine, I started this thread 2 years ago
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/navl-shipping-when-you-are-the-buyer-or-seller
    I wanted to make sure I made the right decision legs on or off. In the end, I prepared it with legs off as the restoration expert Timme (amazing skills and pinball knowledge) had this preference. I communicated with Beltmann that the legs would be off and that there was no problem with that. I had clarity that they wanted to wrap it so they could do inventory. When they could not show up the day I made myself available, I confirmed there would be no problem the following day etc. I was given assurance, and had no prior shipping issues in the past.
    What I was hoping would happen is for someone to post alternative shippers, even if for a certain region. That would not help me at this point, but perhaps it would help prevent others from using Beltmann believing there is no better option when shipping is desired.

    No not sure,It was 5k last time I looked but good to see its more as a lot of cash was left on the table for many cases.

    #57 10 months ago

    These companies are somewhat misleading the customer by saying they will pack and ship when they mean they will ship.I shipped a pin to PA. and they told the customer they would wrap for him,He tells me they contacted Him 25 minutes away unwrapped but offered to do it real quick for the last leg of the journey.

    #58 10 months ago

    Well.... Beltmann, according to their website, says this:
    -

    "Therefore, arcade games, pinball machines, and rare collectibles must be packed, stored, and shipped with extreme care, due to the special nature of these machines and the electronics involved.

    An arcade game for sale will have a much higher value if it is HOU (Home Use Only), NIB (New in Box), in mint condition, and fully working. When attempting to move an arcade game or pinball machine between locations, it’s critical to ensure it safely reaches its destination. Select a professional coin-op shipper like Beltmann Integrated Logistics to effectively transport your pinball machines and arcade games, particularly those with high value."
    -

    https://www.beltmannlogistics.com/solutions/coin-op-and-gaming/
    -

    This company that says they are the industry leader and how they ship with "extreme care" etc. specifically told me not to wrap the machine. I was told they do not want it wrapped so they can inspect it and do inventory, and they can pack it. That was their way.

    As a company that does this professionally and is paid to do it, they are supposed to be better at wrapping a machine than I am. I always thought you are supposed to be punished only when you don't do what you are told.

    Tim wrapped it very well before the return shipment and so I guess they will not refuse to pick it up if it is wrapped and on a pallet (not that this would have helped in my case as there was no pallet jack).

    #59 10 months ago

    The shipping companies operate just like insurance companies. Deny, deny, deny...

    John Grisham had it right in the Rainmaker.

    I've had a few shipped to me. I never will again. If I can't go get it, I just won't buy it.

    #60 10 months ago

    Delivery wise, nothing but bad experiences with beltman/STI to report on my end.

    #61 10 months ago

    When I sell a game, I take photos and videos before it leaves. I also cocoon it in a roll of shrink wrap with old blankets and towels and photograph each step. The shippers love it as it's less work for them, but is completely opposite than what is posted on their website. Only one issue in all the years of shipping games, but I feel the extra time wrapping and sticking a game is the right thing to do (especially with today's prices).

    #62 10 months ago

    I had photos etc. I agree that having pictures-videos is a good idea, but I think what is most important is to deal with a company that has some integrity.
    -

    You can have photos and wrap it and you can be there for pickup etc, but then what if it is damaged after it is picked up? None of that will assure you that they will make it right if they damage your machine if they have no integrity and their way of doing business is deny. When you hire a company with no integrity, you have to go to court to get any compensation if there is damage through their negligence no matter what you do on your end to document.

    In my case, they made me wait many months as they processed my claim. Having photos does not prevent the delay and the need for me to repeatedly inquire about the claim if the company behaves that way when there is a damage claim. In my case, they then lied and said it was pre-existing and the only recourse was court. Then they further lied by saying only the sub they worked with was responsible.

    Since in court they conceded that they damaged my machine and admitted that the sub was not solely responsible , clearly they behaved with no integrity in how they handled the claim.
    -

    I believe that there must be other companies that have integrity, and I would be interested to know if I am to ever ship a machine again, who would be a better choice.

    #63 10 months ago

    I will be devils advocate here. First of all we are very fortunate to have NAVL/Beltmann as an option to ship our pinball machines across the country. I do hope instances like this do not discourage Beltmann from shipping arcade/pinball machines in the future(again-we are lucky to have them).

    I have shipped a ton of machines with NAVL/Beltmann and if you do it right-they usually ship unscathed. How does NAVL work? They broker nationwide moving companies to assist with the moving of items. Do they control every aspect of these small mom and pop moving companies that assist in the move? The answer is no. Are they liable for using these smaller mom and pop companies while shipping-the answer is yes. Long story short is you are going to get different levels of quality movers and different techniques for packing properly. I have had machines show up with just a thin layer of stretch film and bent legs before. My recommendation is to take matters into your own hands if you want it done right. You are supposed to let them wrap it because they need to take inventory of the current condition for documentation purposes. This is bs and you need to try and pack the machine yourself(especially if you want it done right). I take pictures and video of the game before I even start wrapping it for documentation-I include a recent magazine or newspaper with date for reference. I then wrap the machine like a cocoon. Stretch film entire game, wrap backbox with moving blankets, cardboard on glass, moving blankets wrapped all around machine(including bottom-not just sides) and stretch filmed again. I ship with the legs on-would never ship without legs on unless full crating(who has time and money for that). Also very important-make sure legs are tightened and leg levelers are lowered all the way down. Then I wrap legs with cardboard protectors and tape. If you want it done right-start taking matters into your own hands. I now get more involved with packing the machine properly and talking the seller through the proper procedures. Knowledge is power-do not hesitate to use NAVL/Beltmann for shipping-they do a great job overall and I feel fortunate to have this service available.

    #64 10 months ago
    Quoted from slizzap:

    I'd like to counter everything you just said with this link to Beltmann's website:
    https://www.beltmannlogistics.com/solutions/coin-op-and-gaming/
    It's bordering on victim shaming to infer that even though a company specifically advertises specialty handling for special fragile products, including pinball games specifically, that we shouldn't have trusted them.
    It was referrals of individuals on here and that website specifically that helped me to decide to place my trust in them. I haven't been vocal about my experience, but I have been watching for threads like these just to see if it was only my experience. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case.

    Victim shaming pointing out that he paid 10 times the current value for a machine over 16 years ago, then for some reason left his geriatric mother and a minimum waged home healthcare aid to triage it while he was at the office?

    I am in no way saying that he is fully to blame, but he needs to shoulder some of the responsibility. As a sidebar, why is any of this being discussed on a public forum if it's still an on going litigation or within a time period of appeal?

    #65 10 months ago

    From reading the thread, I believe the verdict is in, appeal time expired, retribution had been paid to the victim (op) and the thread is to earn people what could happen if you trust a company to do what they say they'll do.....

    Quoted from WalrusPin:

    Victim shaming pointing out that he paid 10 times the current value for a machine over 16 years ago, then for some reason left his geriatric mother and a minimum waged home healthcare aid to triage it while he was at the office?
    I am in no way saying that he is fully to blame, but he needs to shoulder some of the responsibility. As a sidebar, why is any of this being discussed on a public forum if it's still an on going litigation or within a time period of appeal?

    #66 10 months ago

    Correct. I stated it was not some ongoing litigation. I clearly stated that there was a verdict in my favor (not he said she said drama). The judgement included wording that Beltmann was found responsible for damage (contrary to what they said when they denied the claim and falsely indicated that it was only the sub-contractor CRST that was responsible) and Beltmann chose not to appeal.
    -

    Regarding the comment that I should shoulder some responsibility, I do not work in the legal profession, but I believe that this is called contributory negligence. If for example, someone runs a red light and hits your car in an intersection, perhaps it could be said that even though you had the right ow way, you had some responsibility if going above the speed limit.
    -

    If I had some responsibility because I did not wrap the machine and did not take off work again to be there after I took off work the prior day where they did not come (my wife was home all day to be available at their convenience and lead them, pleural, to the machine), then if you were a judge, what would you think if Beltmann then said:
    -
    -

    "your honor, we see the pictures of the machine without damage before it was shipped and after it arrived at the destination and we know no damage was documented when it was picked up, but there is contributory negligence on the part of the machine owner because even though we say we package machines with extreme care, and even though the machine owner paid us, the professionals, to do this, and even though we stated we needed to be the ones to do this, the machine owner should have called out BS, and wrapped it and put it on a pallet (that we forgot to bring along with a 2nd mover) before the 1 driver arrived without a pallet jack"
    -

    On the flip side, what if you were there for the pickup after repeatedly taking off work without pay until they showed up, even though you working and getting paid to work is how you have money to pay them to do their jobs, and spent a lot of time wrapping the machine because you are really good at at, and then they damaged the machine big time after they loaded it up. Then, they deny the claim and if you want any compensation other than zero, you go to court. Then, Beltmann says
    -
    -
    "your honor, this damage was pre-existing. We would prove it because we do inventory when we pick it up but the machine owner prevented us from inspecting the machine contrary to our policy by wrapping it. We are the experts and package these valuable machines with extreme care, and the machine owner did not comply with our policy." I think they would have a good argument!
    -

    To me what matters most is that the business have enough integrity to pay a claim when they are responsible for damage and it is obvious that they caused damage, which was my case (proven, not alleged).
    -
    -

    I have shipped with Beltmann before, and no prior problems other than more than 1 last minute re-scheduling. It is easy to be happy with them when nothing goes wrong. Anyhow, this was posted as a warning of what can happen and how Beltmann behaves if your machine is damaged. I posted this a a FYI warning. What you do with that information is up to you.

    There are 66 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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