I am at a loss this year because we have had a run of bad luck with machines we have sold or traded this Spring & Summer and I am getting a little discouraged.

We normally sell fully working machines at what I consider to be "fair" prices and always sell "as-is". But if someone buys a machine from us we do our best to help them with any issues that might develop.

Anyway - over the past few months we have had several people end up having issues with machines we sold. I know we don't have any obligation since all machines were sold "as-is" but I was wondering what most of you would have done.

First machine was a Jungle Lord (trade deal) - guy got it home and played it heavy (pretty much non stop) for a few days and all of a sudden power supply started acting up. Fuse area started getting very hot and finally failed. We sent him a replacement board N/C and had him send us back his old board. We found out fuse holder was the main issue. - I thought this was more than fair and so did the buyer.

Second machine was a Firepower - and after being played fairly heavy for several weeks driver board developed issues. We intend to send the buyer a replacement board even though it has been several months since we sold the machine. - I am thinking just charge him a few dollars plus postage - fair?

Last one was a Xenon - driver board failed after about a month and one of my friends (a pinball service guy) just went over and replaced the driver board (as a regular service call). Should we pay or offer to pay for part or all of the cost on something like this? It has been several weeks since we sold this machine.

I want to be fair with my customers but I also do not do pinball machines as a business and sell them fairly cheap. (100% working & fully shopped and normally still cheaper than Boston Pinball average price).

How far do I have to go on "as-is" machines to be fair with customers?

We have never had a run of luck like this and hopefully now that we have had 3 with issues it is behind us but who knows! (As the old saying goes: everything happens in 3's)

Typically when we sell a machine we tell sellers we have done everything we can to be sure everything is working 100% when they pick them up. We warn them that these machines are like used cars and sometimes have issues develop but we do our best to make sure they are fixed as good as possible before we sell them. We fix any known board issues, replace any bad connectors and pins, re-flow pins on boards when we don't replace them, fully shop machines and play test every machine at least 100 times.

Our issue has been electronic parts failures after machines have been played much harder than normal. New buyers that only have one or two machines tend to play the heck out of them over the first few weeks they own them. With 30 year old boards sometimes something fails - and that has been the issue with these 3 machines.

It isn't like we missed an issue when we got machines fixed up and ready to be sold it has been more of an issue that machines were getting played much harder than normal for hours on end. The guy that had the fuse holder fail told me the Jungle Lord had been on and played for 14 or 15 hours the first day he bought it and about 10 or 12 hours the next couple days before it started having issues. (Even after the fact we re-pinned the connector on that power supply something else got us). When these machines were in arcades they were not being played any harder and that was over 30 years ago when machines had all new boards in them.

I just am not sure what more we as sellers can do. Once you start replacing more parts you can't keep prices cheap and it is kind of a trade off between trying to keep machines as cheap as possible so more people can afford them and making them as bulletproof as possible.

Up until about 3 months ago we have had very few issues with machines we have sold but then all of a sudden we have had several crap out on us with in a few weeks of us selling them. And every machine has had something odd fail. Just something that has been driving us crazy lately and I was wondering how others handled it.

I do warn all my customers that machine WILL have issues down the road and I show them what to typically look for if they are at all mechanically inclined. I also explain one of the main reasons pinball machines were replaced by arcade machines in the late 1970's and into the 1980's was most operators loved the fact that arcade machines are typically more reliable and don't need as many repairs.

NONE of these customers asked me to do anything for them for free. I just feel better taking care of my customers. I just don't know at what point I am not being fair to myself?

I always tell buyers to feel free to call or email with any questions or issues and I help them any way I can. Up until these three machines it normally has been telling them to solder a wire back on a coil, reset a connector, make an adjustment, change this switch to reset from 3 to 5 ball - etc.

But 3 machines in a row with board issues has me rethinking things a little. If would be different if we were getting big money for a machine. But selling $750 to $900 machines (fully working and shopped) it is really hard to be giving away boards or fixing boards for free a couple months after selling a machine.

Hopefully our run of bad luck is behind us but I am just trying to plan ahead because I still have another couple dozen machines to fix and sell now that we have changed directions with the hobby.

Originally I had thought about doing some type of arcade or pinball hall but our plans have changed so now I just want to keep our collection and sell everything else we do not have space for here at the house. It has been a great hobby for the past 4 years but beyond our own personal machines it is time to move on.

We are in Central PA and after we were in the hobby about a year we quickly ran out of space here at the house. So for about a year after we were out of space we had thought seriously about doing a location somewhere to give people a place to pay and enjoy classic pinball machines. But after looking long and hard at the idea we decided it just wasn't in the cards for us right now.

The problem then was what to do with almost 100 machines we had purchased with the idea of doing some type of an arcade. So about two years ago we decided to start selling some of those off as we fixed them up. We still have between 20 and 30 more machines than we have space for so I know we have about two dozen machines we still need to fix & sell.

From day one we realized there really is no money in the pinball hobby. Regardless if you flip machines, open an arcade, restore machines, sell parts, or what ever else you can do pinball CAN'T be about money. There just isn't enough money in this hobby these days to make it into a business so if you are involved you have to be into it for the love of the hobby and we are. But right now family issues have me pulled in too many other directions to devote the time I would need to if I were to try to open an arcade or put machines on location. So now to do away with storage rent (that is killing me) some machines have to get sold.

My point of this post is trying to figure out how "fair" is too fair when helping people with machines we have sold or will be selling. I like to keep everyone happy but we make very little on machines we sell so I can't keep giving boards & stuff away. I am trying to find a good balance between fair and being nuts!

Carl,

It was a pleasure doing business with you also! I try to be as fair as I can when both buying and selling and try to help as many people as I can that are in the hobby. But the people I love to help the most are people new to the hobby. I feel those are the people who are the future of the hobby and we all need to do what we can for them.

I have to say NONE of my customers have expected anything out of me when a machine has issues after the sale. So anything I do for them is just me trying to help them enjoy this great hobby and is not expected. But I am truly upset to see anyone have an issue with a machine I sell.

I realize these things don't last forever but I also feel as though people shouldn't have issues with something I sell them a few weeks or months after I sell it. Thankfully - so far - none of the issues are things we missed when checking machines over or anything. Just old parts failing after much heavier use that would be normal in a home environment.

One change we have made since this run of machines is we now leave machines on for 10 to 12 hours non stop after we finish them and we play them off and on over that 10 to 12 hours. Before this we would turn a machine on and test play it but then turn it off and try it again later in the day. We never really thought about the fact that many of these machines will get played non stop for hours once people get them home since they are new to the hobby and only have one pin to play.

Anyway - thanks for all the replies and hopefully this post will help both buyers and sellers down the road. At least each might better know what to expect once reading some of the replies or looking at the poll.

Thanks again everyone!

AkumaZeto,

I am very sad to see your post. Please don't take this personally but guys thinking like you hurt the hobby. Noobs are the life blood of the hobby and I try to do all I can for them. I know this comes with more issues but I am in the hobby to enjoy the hobby and to share this enjoyment with as many people as possible.

Everyone please remember we are all in this together and pinball will only live on if we keep getting new people involved. Nothing gets me more excited in the hobby that to see kids that are into these machines. They are the future of the hobby!!!

Up until this point we have sold basically by word of mouth and on Craig's List trying to keep all transactions local. When we tried listing on Pinside, RGP, MrPinball, and eBay we found so many buyers don't understand NO SHIPPING.

I don't mind the idea of shipping a game but I really want all buyers to come see and play each machine to be sure they are 100% happy. Selling something and shipping it without buyer looking at and playing that machine just doesn't work for me.

I realize this limits my number of buyers and we can't get as much money for machines but I just really feel better if someone plays a machine they want before giving me any cash for it. That way they know exactly what they are getting.

We are not in the pinball business we just love fixing up machines and we only have space for about two dozen right now. So every time we fix up a machine we either have to sell one of ours or the one we fixed because we are totally out of space.

Parting with machines keeps getting tougher since most of what we have is stuff we really like. So we are thinking more & more about just getting away from buying & fixing machines and getting into another hobby. Not to say we will not keep a bunch of machines for ourselves but our days of buying and selling are numbered.

Since this is 100% a hobby for us I am not all that worried about the extra cost of doing the right thing for my past customers. When we fix up machines we try to do pretty much everything we can to make the reliable but that is pretty much impossible with 30 year old machines. So every once in a while a machine will end up getting us. The crazy thing is after selling over 50 machines we never had an issue like we did a few weeks ago with 3 machines in a row with issues.

Normally, in the past, it was always simple little stuff we were able to walk customers through but these 3 machines all ended up with some type of board issues. I think we should have caught the weak fuse holder and that is why I replaced that guys board for free including us paying the shipping. But the other two machines with electronic parts failing after a few weeks I know I can't cover 100% or eat the entire cost. Or at least I can't keep doing that and still keep our prices where they are.

It was just kind of discouraging getting hit with 3 machines in a row having issues with in a few months of us selling them. And it is also the first time one of our customers has had to use my buddy (the in home service guy) to get one of our machines fixed. I don't mind seeing him get some extra business I just don't like it when it is on something we sold!