What this thread says is that Stern is a black hole of information on their models. While this statements may be obvious to many members here, it hasn't been obvious to new pinball enthusiasts buying the TWD game, and many other current member enthusiasts who don't read all the related threads. And burning new pinball enthusiasts as well as other members with a black hole of information will only hurt Stern and the pinball community in general.

I posted this on another thread and it is relevant here... it won't let me post the link so to read the post in its entirety look at the top of page 18 of the twd premiums wtf thread.

If a person has to go to a third party forum and potentially comb through hundreds of posts to get general product practice information for a manufacturer/seller, then there is something wrong with the communications from that manufacturer/seller.

If Stern does not have a simple caveat/disclaimer/notice/description on their website describing and discussing general product information for a posted pinball theme or for all pinball themes on the site (i.e., an overview of pro/le/premium/etc options and what they mean, with current and potential future availability) to educate the consumer and provide them with basic information, then they risk upsetting their own consumers, which does a disservice to the pinball community and more importantly themselves.

_{Post edited by dzoomer: grammar fixes}

My post is not about a features matrix. That, as you said, is on the their website. And it is what led people to buy the LE over Pro for the price...

What has been omitted on their website was Stern considering the potential offering of a premium TWD machine that was posted on a thread in this forum a few months earlier. Stern for the benefit of their customers and the community as well as the education of new enthusiasts should at least be up front with not only what models are available, but also what other models may be considered available for production in the future (with whatever caveats they wish to add). This information was never made known on Stern's website. And the new pinball buying enthusiasts to the hobby took the hit as noted on that thread unfortunately.

Again, if a person has to go to a third party forum and potentially comb through hundreds of posts to get general product practice information for a manufacturer/seller, then there is something wrong with the communications from that manufacturer/seller.

_{Post edited by dzoomer: grammar fix}

Your point on searching I would have thought is my point. There are buyers upset on the bait/switch view that Stern has now done with the premium model. Multiple people have posted such on the forum, and many other non-members would be expected to have similar opinions.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. If Stern's had a basic caveat/disclaimer/notice/description on their website noting potential related future models (with qualifications if needed) then all this discussion of third party forum posting would be irrelevant. Enough buyers seem to care about the black hole of Stern website information on potential pinball machine options to blow up a major thread on the TWD experience in this forum. And there is my negative experience (and a few others posted on the forum) as a new pinball buying enthusiast that is a direct result of this black hole of information by Stern on their website.

I'm not saying my recommendation is a comprehensive fix all. But basic communication on Stern's website with regards to current and potential future theme machine offerings (pro/le/premium) would allow the pinball enthusiast community who visits their website to understand the basics of the Stern offerings (current and potential future, even with qualifications), which is never a bad thing.

What don't you understand?

I'm not saying Stern should speculate on theme options they may release (e.g., ST vs TWD vs MET, etc). Rather what machine options they may release and potentially release within a theme (e.g., pro, le, premium). The point is that many people, and especially new enthusiasts don't understand that Stern has a plan on what they may or may not make within a theme machine for options (e.g., pro, le, premium),.... but they don't make it known on their website. It seems they make it known with the odd third party post on a third party website (talk about plausible deniability).

For the benefit of their customers and the pinball community, Stern should at least acknowledge on their website how (in any manner) they may potentially speculate and offer future offerings for certain theme titles and machine offerings based on interest and demand. Better that than silence which has led many people to erroneously conclude that no other machines have been considered.

It at least educates people who visit their website interested in buying to understand the full context of their current and future potential machine option offerings, and what may change (or may not, depending on what caveat/wording they use).

That's short-sighted. I guess some people care about the community more than a who-cares attitude.

I found multiple new enthusiast members on the premium wtf thread who are turned off with the way Stern has done the TWD release. And they have now noted that they are wary against NIB purchases. This does not help Stern, nor the community.

And did Stern say there would be a premium on their website, or even the possibility that there was a premium (on their website)? Let me answer that, NO.

Is a black hole of information on Stern's website reasonable?

Sadly, some new enthusiasts have posted their negative experience with the TWD release because of this black hole of Stern website information. And sorry, but third party information on third party websites is not a reasonable way for the dissemination of information.

It isn't a fix-all but at least if Stern started to give some basic information to people who visit their website on the potential for additional theme models, it would go a long way to educating consumers and giving people the opportunity to make informed decisions. This is not rocket science.

Holy misdirections.

I didn't say it was a right. I said it was good business practice.

And it isn't about knowing their plans in detail It's about providing some basic information to their customers,... in some way generally acknowledging a product's current and potential offerings in an up-front manner on their own website (even if it is generic, qualified or has caveats). This general Stern information has historically been released through forum posts here or at trade shows. So such basic information should not be any big deal to put on Stern's website. Communication on their website to their customers is never be a bad thing. This isn't black bag stuff.

Obviously the 20 pages of threads on the TWD premium offering shows that many people have taken issue with what Stern has done in the TWD offering, though there are always a few dissenters.

And it isn't about being afraid of a future release. It's about educating people and especially new enthusiasts. Many new enthusiasts won't know the basics of a manufacturer's pinball offerings (and line-up) such as pro, le, premium and their actual/potential releases. Other enthusiasts have posted their surprise at this new method of machine offering from Stern as well.

Really? I have not found it to be as near as black and white as you suggest.

Obviously Stern issues press releases. However, in my research (so far) they don't contain much more than basic information. Whereas forum members here and related posts on the forum have had much more detailed and pertinent information in addendum or in lieu of the "official" press releases. Have you researched the forum for detailed Stern info versus press releases? I'd like to hear what people have found. In my limited research, there has been more info on the forum and relevant info than in the Stern press releases. And from what I've observed, it has been accurate.

And how "new" do you think this website is? PS has been around much longer than a "few years" from what I can tell in my internet research. Much of the modern pinball era as per the PS definition, with many many many Stern machine releases and with much related information directly related/relevant to the modern era. Certainly long enough to gain an understanding of current Stern practices over many recent years.

Have you seen the detailed forum info versus the basic press releases on the TWD theme machine(s), the differences between the information, and how the differences manifested over this theme release? And have you seen how TWD theme was handled differently from the previous modern era machine theme releases and do you know how? It has been specifically discussed... and the much-more specific forum pre-release information proved accurate over the limited and basic Stern press release information.

_{Post edited by dzoomer: fixed a reference}

Yes. I know the stats of Stern and the PS pinball eras and used that info to accurately frame my previous posts.

And actually, PS has been around for 10 years (since 05), and the website was in development for many months before that. So yes, PS has been around for much of the modern era as I noted earlier.

I never said Stern comes to this site to announce things. That's beside the point, which as mentioned earlier is that forum members here and related posts on the forum as people at trade shows have reported much more detailed and pertinent information in addendum to or in lieu of the "official" [Stern] press releases on themes and upcoming models. Directly related to this thread, are old posts reporting that Stern was considering a premium TWD release at some point if sales of the model were good, though their press releases were conspicuously absent of that info. Many people missed that information from a few posts and as noted were surprised by the premium release suddenly after the LE machines sold out (first time that has happened as well).

Wrong. Look at the first quote in its actual context.

Nowhere in that language does it directly state that general Stern information has to come from Stern. You are providing a baseless supposition on what is open-ended language in a single statement. Bad logic. By going further back in my posts in this thread you'll see the basis from which these statements occur, which frankly completely dispute the notion that I ever implied "direct from stern" posts on this website.

It's obvious that much accurate detailed information has been released on the forums here regarding Stern releases, attributed to Stern through members in those posts, prior to or in addition to any official Stern press releases.

LOL, so being accurate and truthful is just a technicality.

Yes the forum is newer, but a forum isn't the only way to disseminate information. Who cares either. Ok, so for the past five years the PS forum is has been used to post and get more useful and accurate information on new Stern theme machines being (or going to be) offered, with more detail than from Stern press releases (regardless of who posts the info).

I can't help someone who doesn't understand what context means wrt a direct quote.

I never said Stern post things on the forum. I've said it multiple times now too. Quit going back to that. It seems you don't understand after multiple attempts by me to explain my position. Fine. Time to move on and stop the rehash. The community here is welcome to draw it's own conclusions one way or the other.

What makes you think lots of people are complaining about value/investment? There are a ton of posts on this thread but I see hardly anything about investment and value being an issue. I agree that investment/value is a weak concern or issue. However, this rollout caused other relevant issues to customers, as discussed.