BeachTime@ Score feature?

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#1 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

I smoked my 'Score feature lockout' coil. It is getting powered at the start of the game.
I think it should only get powered 'ON' after the 3rd, 4th, or 5th ball. I believe the machine worked correctly
before.......not sure, since I only played it a few times before. Working on other Bingos.
I think its getting powered thru the two Shutter switches down thru the circuit diagrams I have included.
That is not correct , is it ?
I thought it would be first powered ON when the Timer Unit got to step 3 and came thru the Timer Stepper
contacts.
Can you tell me the correct operation of this 'Score feature' operation.?
I verified the other paths to the coil are not the problem. The shutter switches are N/C contacts.
Should they be closed before the first ball is shot?

ScreenHunter_157 Aug. 03 07.19 (resized).jpg

ScreenHunter_158 Aug. 03 07.19 (resized).jpg

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#2 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Another important point.
The RED button does not Reset the Game and Open the shutter.

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#3 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

Couple questions: is your timer reset? Is your score feature disc reset? Try resetting those manually then trying to start a new game.

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#4 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Yes...... the Timer resets when I start a new game; but I have to remove the balls from the playfield
because the shutter doesn't Open.
I set the Score Feature Unit to Zero by hand; I think it does reset when I start a new game.
note...... Red button doesn't reset the Game. I toggle the Coin Sw. by hand to try to get a Reset.
I have the Anti-cheat Sw. shimmed ON, and put Games on the Credit Counter.
The Score feature coil was 'smoked because the 50V. stayed on it at the start of the game. I think it should be Pulsed after the 3rd. Ball is shot.

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#5 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

Things are pretty hectic right now, sorry for the delay, but score feature is a trip relay, correct? If so, check the hold switch on the relay and make sure it changes state.

If shutter doesn't open, is red button relay engaging on initial start relay pulse?

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#6 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

1. Is the 'hold switch' the switch nearest the relay on the schematic? If so, it does actuate. as do all the switches on the 'Score Feature' trip assy.
@ I didn't realize this switch Opens when the relay is actuated.
2. I just realized this relay must be energized when the RED Button is pressed to reset the Game.
@ Ref: Switch at E6.
3. Main issue...... I'm not sure how this 'Score feature' works! Can you explain its function?
I assume it lets you change the 'scoring odds' after the 3rd, 4th, or 5th ball is shot.
Is that correct?
4. Timer Unit.... having problems getting the 'Before 4th." , and 'Before 5th" relays to energize.
Not sure the Timer is stepping Up properly after the 3rd. step.
@ Stepper moves properly when manually actuated.
5. Yellow Button..... Extra Balls not actuated; I think this issue is because of 'Before 5th" relay
not energizing.
**** Can you address #3 .....the Main Issue first!
Thanks

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#7 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

OP
Quoted from JKnPA:
3. Main issue...... I'm not sure how this 'Score feature' works! Can you explain its function?
I assume it lets you change the 'scoring odds' after the 3rd, 4th, or 5th ball is shot.
Is that correct?

Yes. It allows you to put in more money at the time when the feature flashes on the backglass. It plays only for odds. If you start a game and have a good one going but your odds aren't high enough, you can feed it to get better ones, theoretically. Typically, the feature doesn't enable until your odds are relatively high, so for me, the stop and shop feature is a bit of a waste - but I could see how it could vacuum a few more nickels out of people.

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#8 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

When does the 'score feature lockout' relay get energized? Is it at the start of the game as I
show it in Post#1 ? That doesn't seem right to me.
I thought it would be when the Timer is on step 3 thru Timer Unit contacts 57-7 and 60-6.
Ref: B12

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#9 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

OP
Quoted from JKnPA:
When does the 'score feature lockout' relay get energized? Is it at the start of the game as I
show it in Post#1 ? That doesn't seem right to me.

It will be after the timer unit steps beyond the step where you'd expect, so step 4 if before 3rd. Not at game start.

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#10 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

What about the path I showed in Post#1 from #65-2 thru Score Feature unit( its closed from 0-3)
thru the N/C switch to the relay.
It looks like the relay is getting energized thru this path. If not, what is the purpose of this circuit
stated above?
Appreciate your help.

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#11 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

It locks it out right away - the relay is a trip relay, and the NC switch is the signal that the relay has not tripped. Unlike a hold switch on a momentary relay, which continuously provides power until another factor shuts it off.

If the score feature unit is below the fourth step, the feature isn't available, so it locks it out right away.

But as soon as it trips, the path is no longer active.

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#12 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

It locks it out right away - the relay is a trip relay It locks it out right away - the relay is a trip relay
****************************************************************************
Then it does Energize when the shutter closes with the first ball ????? Then it locks ON!
How does it get Energized after ball #3 ,4, or 5.
I still don't see it.........what am I missing!

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#13 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

It depends on the position of that score feature. If above step 4, then it follows the second path, and will trip when the timer hits a particular position.

If below step four, it trips immediately, and the NC switch should open preventing the coil from frying.

Check that switch over carefully.

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#14 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

If the 'Score Feature' Unit is at 0 ( start of new game), or less than 4; then this circuit is correct
and the 'Score feature lockout' relay will energize. Is that correct ?
If so, then the Bingo seems to be operating correctly.
To get the Score Feature or what they call the 'Stop & Shop' feature to function I have to hit the Red Button
and use credits to Enable this feature. Is that correct?
**** Like I said, I didn't know how this feature works and the manual didn't explain it.
At some point though the relay must energize, or the Bingo will not Reset......Yes !

ScreenHunter_162 Aug. 06 17.13 (resized).jpg

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#15 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Update......
Timer unit...... There were several jumpers added to terminals on this unit. After checking
continuity to the 'E' wiper rivet contacts, they were not really necessary; so
I have no idea why they were added. I removed them.
@ Unable to get the Timer to step 5, so relay 'before 5th' is not getting energized.
Relay Trip Assembly....... Someone worked on this unit before me, because I see tape on some of the wires on the harness. What I don't understand is why Sw. assy R4 and R5 were on the 'Before 4th Select Lock assy. They should be on the 'Before 5th select lock' assy. The wires were cut to fit the 4th
assy. not the 5th. They must have come out of the factory that way, because I had to lengthen the wires
to reach the lower 5th assy. Now I can power on my 'Extra balls', if I get that far.
***** Any help getting the Timer to step 5 would be appreciated. I'm not certain what electrical
circuit does that.

'

Post last edited 4 years ago: “It was only the R5 switch assy. not the R4 and R5 assy. The R5 assy. handles the Extra Balls thru the Yellow Button.”

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#16 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

How do I get to step 5 on the Timer ?
See attachment.....

ScreenHunter_167 Aug. 13 13.24 (resized).jpg

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#17 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

Before fourth selector lock relay has to trip and that one switch you've circled has to be making.

Everything else is the same for every other step.

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#18 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Does the Timer move to step 5 after the relay trips thru that switch, or does the Timer move to step
5 first, then the relay trips.
Maybe there is a 'race condition' between the relay closing and the Timer stepping Up.

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#19 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

Could be! The timer only steps when switch 2A is closed on the lifter. But the relay has to trip first.

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#20 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Just to be clear on getting the Timer to step5.
Is the circuit shown in Post#16 the correct path to move the Timer to Pos. 5.
I just want to verify I am working on the correct circuit for this problem.
Thanks

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#21 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

Yes

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#22 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Ok.......... that makes sense from what I see in my attachment in Post#16.
I checked continuity from the Timer wire#36-2 to the Ball Lifter sw.2A.
The circuit to the right thru Relay 'Before 5' is ok because if I manually close that relay the
Timer will step-up until the Timer hits its upper stops and the game is over.
*** I checked all the Wipers and there rivet contacts....... I don't see anything wrong.
I will keep looking....

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#23 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Update.......
The problem has been the 'Ball lifter' cam does not always make the complete revolution
and fall into the cam detent. The Switch 1A is not closed unless the Cam is sitting in that
detent. That switch must be closed to complete the circuit in the attachment; that circuit
energizes the 'before 5th Ball' relay and the 'after 5th ball' relay.
***** How do I make the Ball lifter adjustment to insure proper operation of this Cam that controls
switches 1A and 1B. ?
What is the function of the spring that is attached to the Ball lifter horizontal adj. bar.
I don't see any reference and how to make this critical adjustment.

ScreenHunter_170 Aug. 18 15.40 (resized).jpg

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#24 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

Well, first, why isn't the motor making a full rotation of the cams? With the game off, can you manually lift a ball easily by pushing the bar on the right side of the lift? (Don't get your fingers caught).

If not, then the lift needs to be adjusted to allow the ball to drop properly. If it does, then you have a problem with the hold switch for the motor on the motor cam. Not enough current is flowing through.

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#25 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

There is NO Mechanical binding.
I adjusted the gap on both the 1A and 1B switches many times. If it is a simple adjust, then I'm having trouble getting it right.
The cam itself looks ok, but maybe there is some issue with it...... can't tell.
I was wondering if there is too much drag on the cam as it rotates; thus not getting entirely to the
notch position. that is why I asked about the spring.
If I lift the playfield, should it just make one revolution and stop with the power On? If it keeps lifting
Balls, does that mean Sw. 1B is mis-adjusted ?
**** Sw. 1b is the 'Carry-over' switch. *****

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#26 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

If it keeps lifting, that is because the playfield is lifted and the lane switch is not being pressed.

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#27 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Update........
Spent several days adjusting the 'Ball lifter' switches, and the mechanical side bar.
It improved a little, but still not happy with it. It still doesn't always make the complete cycle.
I noticed at the start of work on 'BeachTime, the scoring was 'hit and miss'. So now I'm looking
into that issue. Sometimes it scores, other times it doesn't.
When it doesn't Score, I noticed the Search Unit does not STOP to recognize a Hit.
When looking at the 'Replay Cam Index' switch C.U. 16C, I see extra wires on this switch.
It should be a N/C switch with just 2 wires, but there are two other wires on another set of
wiper blades. One set of wires are going to the Common ( Return) , and I do not know where the
other set of wires go. See attachment of Switch 16C,
Was there some modification to this Switch ?
Can another 'BeachTime' owner verify the above switch and let me know if there Bingo
has this other set of wires on it ?
IMG_3091 (resized).JPGIMG_3092 (resized).JPG

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#28 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

I do not own a Beach Time, but by any chance was this game set up to give 5 plays for a quarter?

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#29 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

I don't think so. I never put coins in my Bingos, I just put Credits on the counter.
The thing about this Switch is they flipped the switches on 16A and 16B and just put a shunt wire across
the top switches on the C.U. 16. They eliminated the jumper wire from 16a and 16c for more
convenience ( I guess).
These switches are hard to get to. I thought maybe the switches on C.U. 16 were mis-adjusted
because my Search unit was not Stopping to detect Scores of 3,4, or 5 most of the time.
As far as I can tell the search Unit stops to energize the Search Relays.

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#30 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

It says: 5 balls for 10cents.
What does that have to do with the Scoring ? Just asking.
The Manual only calls for one switch, a N/C switch that should Open when the coils is energized.
see attachment.

ScreenHunter_172 Aug. 23 12.41 (resized).jpg

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#31 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

My brain is slow this Friday. Sorry about that - these are on the replay cam index. I thought stack 16, at a glance at your pic, was for adding credits. My mistake!

So, the adjustment of those switches is pretty critical. Normally you'll get low pays or other problems if it is not right. Make sure they operate just like in the manual.

Scoring operates like this:
1) Search disc turns, making connections with various search relays if a ball is present at the rivet as the wipers travel on the search disc.
2) If three or more search relays (for the most part) are engaged at once, the search index coil pulls in.
3) Switch 17B energizes the replay cams index, and as it rotates, the game will award replays based on the replay counter unit as well as the number of bumps on the cam that awards the replays (13).

Not also that the backside switch (13) has to be adjusted exactly as in the manual.

So, in my experience, if the search disc is not -stopping-, then you have either:
a) dirt on the search disc
b) dirt on the slip rings
c) dirty wipers
d) a warped search disc
e) a search index relay switch that is not adjusted properly (it takes a delicate touch to adjust these, as you probably know).
f) dirty search relay contacts.

Somewhere in there is your problem. Once the search index is pulling, then you might have issues with the amount you earn, but at least the replay cams index should pull and things should happen. If they are inconsistent, you have a 'flaky switch', though in this case, a switch might be caused by any or all of the above.

Hope that helps, but if not, I'm sure someone else will be able to get you to the right switch more quickly!

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#32 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Any idea why there are wires on the lower switch I show in the picture.
That switch would be N/O, and the top switch would be N/C.
The lower switch would Close and short the contact to Common( Return)..... Why!
The top switch would be N/C and Open as noted correctly in the Manual.
**** I don't think this relay Ever energizes, thus the Search unit never stops.

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#33 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

OP
Quoted from JKnPA:
**** I don't think this relay Ever energizes, thus the Search unit never stops.

Does the search index ever engage? There is a resistor that uncommonly fries or becomes disconnected. It must be in working order to hold the search index.

As to the picture, there should be a piece of fish paper between the two sets of switches. I'm not sure I understand the question. The NC switch should be on a second stack (right beside the first). Check the picture in the manual to see the layout.

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#34 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Does the search index ever engage? ............... I will check that later today. I would say YES, because
sometimes the Bingo scores correctly, but mostly NOT.
The Resistor appears to be ok........ no burn marks.

Switch 16C should only have ONE switch, not two. That is the issue.
See attachment.

ScreenHunter_174 Aug. 23 15.33 (resized).jpg

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#35 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

For Amusement Only Games

Richmond, VA

11y 131K 5,841 26 9

OK, in response to your question - no, I have no idea why there are wires on the other switch.

They didn't move that stack over to the wrong side accidentally at some point in the past did they? Check the wire colors to make sure (if you haven't already).

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#36 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

I checked continuity of all three switches, they are wired correctly.
I dis-connected the other set of wires that were on the bottom of C.U. 16-3.
I am re-assembling the switch on 16-3; I want to make sure its N/C when the Cam is in the detent.
When that is complete, I will power-up again tomorrow.
thanks.........have a good night.

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#37 4 years ago

YYY

baldtwit

Pinside member

Portola Valley, CA

7y 42,550 1,026

what the added switch does you need to look and see where it goes. If the wiring is in the harness/looks factory, then the manual could be wrong. If the wiring is outside the harness ... even if it's period correct cloth wiring ... then it's likely operator added and they wanted to do something when the game was paying. Typical stuff would be turn on an alarm/light or open a trapdoor under the player to drop them into the sewer (payouts reduce profits).

if the wiring looks factory, what is the serial number on the head? The pacific pinball museum has a beach time I can dig out of the pile and look what in that one.

assuming the top switch in your picture is 16C and they added another switch underneath it, then 16C needs to be adjusted to be closed when the replay cams are locked.

16C could be open or closed when the cams are returning home after the payout ends (replay cams index coil is unpowered and the cam locking pin is riding on the cam edge) ... it doesn't matter as 16A and 16B are supposed to be open at that time and disconnecting the circuit.

if 16C is not closed when the replay cams are locked, the search index coil will either not power, or it won't power reliably.

to add to post #31:
4] when the replay cams index coil powers, switch 16C opens. Current is maintained to the search index coil thru the 15 ohm resistor

the purpose of 16C is to short around the resistor. The power/current needed to pull in a solenoid plunger or pull down a relay armature is greater than the power/current needed to hold it in/down.

in this case, 16C closed allows max current to flow into the search index coil and yank down the armature - which in turn powers the replay cams index solenoid so 16C opens and the resistor is inserted in the circuit ... that reduces current so the search index coil doesn't overheat during the payout.

when payout is erratic, two things to try:

1] look at the search index unit..and listen. If it sounds like it is powering and letting go, usually it's the position of the search index unit on the base plate or cruddy search rivet<->wiper connections. Occasionally it's a flaky search relay contact, so try different combinations of winners. Try manually holding down combinations of 3 or more adjacent search relay armatures ... that'll eliminate search relay switches as the problem.

2] grab the spinning search wipers and hold them. Ideally, set up a winner and use the chart in the manual to determine where the search wipers should be to
detect that win...hold the wipers there. Then look and see if the correct search relays are powering...or at least three adjacent ones. If they are, the search index should power. I usually stop/hold the search wipers with my thumb, and you can push them around backwards as long as the wiper contacts/tips aren't worn enough to snag rivet edges.

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#38 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

The wiring is Factory............I didn't want to cut the harness open to try to see where they go.
I was hoping another 'BeachTime' owner might know.
Switches 16A and 16B........ N/O in the detent position.
16C ........ N/C " " " .
Search Unit...........Sometimes it Stops and works correctly and I get the payout credits, mostly it just
keeps spinning.
@ I assumed it was a dirty switch or switch adjustment. That is why I went to
the Replay Cam Index assy.

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#39 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Search Relays............. If I hold down 3 or 4 relays, it SCORES.
**** then the problem is between the Search Unit and the Relays ?

0

#40 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

I have continuity to all five relay coils coming from the Search Unit.
The rivets seem clean to me, but its hard to tell.
Sometimes I get a Score and sometimes I don't, so I do see the relays energize when it works.
Other than the contact with the rivets, I don't see the problem.

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#41 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

BaldWit.....
if the wiring looks factory, what is the serial number on the head? The pacific pinball museum has a beach time I can dig out of the pile and look what in that one.
..........................................................................................................................
I don't see any numbers on the Head or playfield. Maybe they were painted over.
I re-assembled the 16C switch with just a N/C set of contacts. The other wires were
removed and taped.
I should take the search unit off and clean it, but I'm not good at getting things back
in one piece!

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#42 4 years ago

YYY

baldtwit

Pinside member

Portola Valley, CA

7y 42,550 1,026

wrt to score features lockout relay ...

when looking from the front of the game, the serial numbers are stamped into the wood on the right side of the cabinet and the top/right side of the head. If they are painted in or sanded off, no big deal because ....

The extra switch on the replay cams index unit is on your second schem pic in post 1 ... labelled "REPLAY CAMS INDEX". It's job is to trip the score features lockout coil if the replay cams index unit powers. The switch has wires 30 and 60-6 on it, and the font on the schem is different so it was a factory change.

logically why was this switch added? The score card tells you. "score feature cancelled after in-line score has registered". Without that switch, if you had change scores before shooting 4th/5th ball enabled, you could play for higher scores after already having a 3 or 4-in-line winner.

so the manual is wrong because it was printed before they made the change ... and so is the schem really given the way the switches look configured in your game. Unless someone took the stack apart and put it together wrong or replaced the stack and reconfigured it, IF the top switch has wires 80 and 15-2 on the blades, then it's doing what the manual/schems 16C is doing....but by convention it should be called 16D.

anyway, I'll look in the museum's game on monday and see what the switch stack looks like on that one.

I shoulda read the whole thread more carefully. The score feature lockout coil will power/trip as soon as you turn the game on if the selection feature unit is not reset ... or if the tilt trip relay is tripped ... or the path you have in post 14 if the shutter is closed. The anti-cheat relay switches are drawn in power-off state.

trip relays should never cook because they almost all have switches on the stacks above them that disconnected the coil as soon as the thing trips. In this case, switch 2 should open and disconnect the circuit regardless of how it's completed in the maze of possibilities at/above wire 60-6. Check switch 2 and verify the relay is actually tripping.

------------------- more unnecessary info below -----------------

the trip relay symbol on the schem has the switch drawn with a J wire connecting it to the coil. It's almost always a black jumper wire and the switch is never labelled on the schem.

the tilt trip relay is an exception ... doesn't have the switch by the coil because the SPDT switch at I7 is doing the same function. That switch also disconnects most of the 50V circuit as well.

the EB trip relay oddly has a numbered wire instead of the jumper, and a bunch of the trip relays don't have the dashed box drawn around them to save space.

0

#43 4 years ago

YYY

baldtwit

Pinside member

Portola Valley, CA

7y 42,550 1,026

wrt game not scoring consistently ...

scoring is kinda divided into win detection and payout.

win detection is the search wipers spinning and checking the card lines for balls in winning holes. It does that by looking at a playfield hole, and if there's a ball in there (playfield hole switch closed), a search relay is powered. Power 3+ adjacent search relays and the search index coil will power to hold the search wipers at that position for payout UNLESS payout for that color has already happened and more payout is not needed.

e.g. if you got paid for 3-in-red already and move numbers to get a different 3-in-red, the search relays are ignored. But if you move numbers to get 4-in-red, then the wipers stop to pay the additional credits.

The chart on manual page 129 is showing where the wipers with the red mark are positioned on the search disc to examine a card line, with the caveat that the scanning starts at the bottom of the chart and goes upwards due to the direction of wiper rotation. They used the A-Y lettering in the card diagram because the magic squares and line change which numbers are in those positions. e.g. if you have the middle three numbers of the top horizontal row lit, then win detection happens when B,I,J is checked at search position 44, and search relays 2,3,4 should power.

when the game is not detecting a win, the easiest thing is usually to plop balls in holes you want to test, then look at the chart to see which rivets to hold the search wipers on so you can check if the appropriate search relays are powering. If they aren't, the problem is with the search wipers - or on this game the magic square/line wipers because they are connecting playfield hole switches to different search disc rivets. If the search relays are powering, then either some search relay switches are flaky or the problem is elsewhere.

since poor connections in the squares/line can kill win detection, one approach is:
- reset the game
- manually step up the magic squares feature unit and selection feature unit to the top. That should enable after 5th and A-F.
- shoot and drop 4 balls in holes to make at least a 3-in-line winner
- if it doesn't score, use the rail buttons to spin the numbers and/or move the line. If it scores then, you probably should disassemble those units to clean the wipers/rivets (fun!) ... but a lot of people just move the numbers to self-clean the connections and hope that works.
- if it doesn't score, you can rearrange numbers and hold playfield hole switches closed to see if anything scores.
- note what works and what doesn't and look at the manual page to see if there's a reason like certain holes are dead or a particular search relay is not scoring a particular kind of win ... e.g. a 4-in-line pays only as a 3-in-line

when the game does score, you can manually reset the replay counter unit for the winning color to allow the thing to detect/pay again for that color.

you had other issues earlier in the thread...and that stuff resolved?

0

#44 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

WOW............ thank you 'Wit'. I think I can say that for all the guys you help here with issues.
I will verify the wires that I took off of 16C. I thought one side of wires went to #70,
but I guess I was reading thru the Xformer to the 330 wire.
I was tracing wires back to the Magic Squares assy. and I did have continuity.
I think the problem is with the Search Disc. While T/S the setup with balls in holes 4,19,7 (DCL) Yellow 3 in a Line; I had voltage on their respective terminals on the Search Disc assy. and I believe I checked continuity to their rivets earlier in the day. It seems like the Wipers A,B, and D are making a good contact to the rivets, so it should work.
I tried to clean the contacts on the 17 switches, but they are difficult to get to, but they did seem to be set correctly. I even slightly adjusted the screw a little to the left, then a little to the right.........No Change, so I put it back to where it was.
Like I said before........sometimes it Scores correctly, but Mostly it doesn't.
So we know the Replay and Search coils are Energizing.
I will continue today....

0

#45 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

Wit,
Chassis # B1203 ......... Head# ? ( covered in paint)
The rivets don't really look that dirty, but I'm cleaning them anyway with 90% alcohol.
No change working on the Yellow 3 in a Line@ 4,19,7.

0

#46 4 years ago

YYY

baldtwit

Pinside member

Portola Valley, CA

7y 42,550 1,026

your replay cams index switch stack was correct except for the top switch being open when the unit wasn't powered. I'll post pics tomorrow.

it does appear they added a switch under 16C, which means the original 16C should be called 16D. I guess they wanted the manual description to be right and left you to figure out that 16C is on top yourself by looking at the wire colors and switch operation.

bingopodcast suggested keeping track of the documentation errors a couple years ago, but I kinda balked since that would mean rewriting significant parts of some of the 1970's manuals Maybe it's time to do it....at least for games that people can verify.

when you are checking continuity, are you distinguishing between almost zero ohms and a few ohms? A few ohms usually means you've gone through a coil, lamp, or transformer/motor winding and you aren't verifying what you really need to. Continuity really needs some care to make sure the circuit you want to check is isolated from the rest of the game or you need to be looking for practically zero ohms.

use alcohol and a synthetic scrub pad to clean the rivets. If the scrub pad leaves scratches, use a less abrasive pad. The rivets should be shiny, then you need to smear something on thinly to prevent oxidation.

for the 4,19, 7 win, have you tried holding the search wipers with the red mark on row 39 yet? Just stick your thumb out sideways and put it in front of a spinning wiper arm ... you can easily stop the wipers and even push them backwards with the motor running assuming your clutches aren't overly sticky.

also, if the payout problem is in a particular color, try a different win in the same color on a different line. If the color doesn't work anywhere, manually change the scores. If it still doesn't work, the usual problem is the replay counter unit for the color - either the wipers/traces or the open-at-96 switch on the ratchet side of the unit.

0

#47 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

your replay cams index switch stack was correct except for the top switch being open when the unit wasn't powered. I'll post pics tomorrow.
.................................................................................................................................................
The top switch was 16C because it had a 'shunt wire' jumped to 16A. They flipped 16A and 16B, so
they could wire the two switch points together. That would be wire#80. See post #27. Switch 16C is
the switch on top in the photo. It has the spacer on it. When the coil energizes it pushes the bottom
swich blade UP against the spacer and 16A opens.
***********************************************
when you are checking continuity, are you distinguishing between almost zero ohms and a few ohms? A few ohms usually means you've gone through a coil, lamp, or transformer/motor winding and you aren't verifying what you really need to.
...............................................................................................
OK. That may be the case, because my analog meter( Triplett) isn't giving me a really good ZERO
reading. I will retest the some of those points again with a new meter I just bought.
************************************************************************
for the 4,19, 7 win, have you tried holding the search wipers with the red mark on row 39 yet?
............................................................................................................................................
Yes........ it did NOT register a Hit !

***** I cleaned all three Replay Counters last week.
I'm starting to think the problems are in the 'Magic Squares assy.

0

#48 4 years ago

YYY

baldtwit

Pinside member

Portola Valley, CA

7y 42,550 1,026

when you held the wipers on row 39, which search relays powered? If it wasn't 1, 2, and 3 then the squares wipers or squares slip ring wipers could be the problem assuming the search relay coils are all good.

if the correct search relays are powering when holding the wipers on a winner, set up a 5-in-line on the same lines:
1] paid but less than 5 scores. The problem is a search relay switch.
2] no pay. The open-at-96 switch is the most likely problem, followed by the search disc wiper connection between wire 25 and 80. Verify the replay counter unit for the color is reset.

if a 3-in-line doesn't pay, but a 4 or 5-in-line does, yank on the wires on the score units attaching to the wiper fingers. If you pull them off the wiper, they were no good anyway.

nice catch on them flipping 16A and 16B also, so the switch number convention is upside down. Since both AB switches are NO, they coulda just left it correct.

Some later games have A-D switches on the replay cams index and they kept the switch stack configuration. I guess they want the bottom switch blade in each stack sitting on the lifter roller. On those games, A and B are like the manual says with A on bottom, and your switch C is switch D. The 80 wire is going diagonally from A->D

below are the beach time replay cams index unit switches

I probably have some pictures of taking the squares assembly apart. Two things worth mentioning are the alignment of the E line - there should be a piece of paper stapled in the head - and to remove the squares motor you unscrew it thru a hole in the front of the lamp panel above the E line.

IMG_20190826_120133 (resized).jpg

IMG_20190826_120245 (resized).jpg

IMG_20190826_120306 (resized).jpg

0

#49 4 years ago

OP

???

JKnPA

Pinside member

Pottsville, PA

10y 37,400 648

:-/=The picture of the switches agrees with my Beachtime.
1. Relays 1,2,3 energize when I have line 39 setup.
***** Magic Squares........... I made progress by rotating the Squares as you suggested to see if
there was poor contacts in that assy.
Then............. after about 1 hour of testing there are no Scores. No relays are energizing.
I don't know what happen.
I assume this switch in the picture must be Closed to energize Relay3.
Are they the ' detent switches' on the Magic squares assy. If they are,
all the Cams are in their detent positions.
ScreenHunter_176 Aug. 27 13.05 (resized).jpg

Post last edited 4 years ago: “Relay 'Before 5h ball' was not energizing. I had this problem before, but its working again. It may be 'trough switch # 3 again, or the switch on 'Before 4th Ball'. Continuing with the 'Magic Squares' Roulette method of T/S. suggested by 'Witt'.”

0

#50 4 years ago

YYY

baldtwit

Pinside member

Portola Valley, CA

7y 42,550 1,026

the magic squares motor relay is on the schem at A12. It's powered directly by the detent switches which close when a square is not in a locked position. The idea is when any square is rotating, the magic squares motor relay is powered, that switch opens and payout is disabled.

if the magic squares motor relay was stuck being powered or the switch on it was stuck open, then search relay #3 wouldn't power. The other ones still would. Since every payout combination needs search relay #3 to power, disabling #3 disables payout.

not sure what you meant by "after about 1 hour of testing there are no Scores. No relays are energizing".

if the card number lights come on and the search wipers are spinning, it's pretty unlikely for all the search relays to be dead. You'd need multiple issues with the search wipers/disc or a break in wire 10.

if you did mean the search relays were dead, I'd stick a voltmeter between wire 10 on the search relay coils and wire 30 on the transformer to verify 17V, then wiggle the wiring around the search relays the big harness going to the back door to see if you have a break. Wire 30 is the fat yellow wire on the transformer that connects the upper and lower lugs closest to the back door - he easiest transformer lugs to clip onto from the back.

unless someone modified the game, you should see/hear search relays powering as soon as the first ball plops in a hole. An easy mod to change that is to wire an extra switch into wire 10 so the search relay coils are disconnected until the before 4th selector lock trip relay tripped ... the 50V payout circuits are disconnected until before 4th trips anyway, so having search relays chattering earlier is just noise and wear.

By JKnPA

4 years ago

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