(Topic ID: 248653)

BeachTime@ Score feature?


By JKnPA

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 78 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by JKnPA
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 31 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    IMG_3103 (resized).JPG
    wire30gi (resized).png
    IMG_3097 (resized).JPG
    IMG_3100 (resized).JPG
    IMG_3096 (resized).JPG
    IMG_3100 (resized).JPG
    IMG_3097 (resized).JPG
    IMG_3100 (resized).JPG
    ScreenHunter_180 Aug. 30 17.54 (resized).jpg
    ScreenHunter_180 Aug. 30 17.54 (resized).jpg
    ScreenHunter_179 Aug. 30 17.48 (resized).jpg
    IMG_3095 (resized).JPG
    IMG_3094 (resized).JPG
    IMG_3093 (resized).JPG
    crud slowing wipers (resized).jpg
    square components (resized).png

    There are 78 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 11 months ago

    combination needs search relay #3 to power, disabling #3 disables payout.

    not sure what you meant by "after about 1 hour of testing there are no Scores. No relays are energizing".
    ...............................................................................................................................
    I mentioned in my edit of my last post that the 'before 5th ball' relay decided not to energize.
    I had this issue last week and believe the problem was the N/O switch 3 on the 'Before 4th Ball'
    relay was not making a good contact to step up the Timer to step 5.
    ***** I was cleaning the contacts on the Magic Squares assy., now the motor does not energize when
    I try to rotate the Squares. The relay is not energizing. It should energize when I hit the buttons
    like A,B,C . etc. Yes ?
    So now I'm stuck again.

    #52 11 months ago

    should been more clear ... confused about "No relays are energizing". You meant trip relays? fwiw:
    1] search relays should start flapping as soon as a ball is in a playfield hole
    2] payout is enabled as soon as before 4th trip relay trips (you shoot the 4th ball). The tripping connects power thru the search relay switches into the payout circuits.
    3] before 5th not tripping wouldn't affect payout. If it doesn't trip, the timer unit won't step periodically to eventually tilt the game and player may be able to move numbers after shooting the 5th ball if before 5th feature is lit.

    wrt the squares motor, the rail buttons power the A-F index coils. Those are the ones mounted around the cam edges on the squares/line unit. When an index relay coil is powered or the armature is riding on the cam edge (not in the index/locking notches), the switch on the index relay needs to be closed.

    if any index relay switch is closed, the magic squares motor relay should be powered and that keeps the motor turned on.

    test all the index relays by pushing down the armature plate with your finger. The motor should turn on and spin the number wheel. When you let go, the wheel should keep going to the next index position.

    beach time is nice ... the index relays switches are 50V and it's the motor relay that powers the 120V squares motor. Some earlier games had 120V on the index relay switches and those powered the motor directly.

    if the problem is pushing the rail buttons does not power the associated index relay coil and none of the enabled buttons work, stick a voltmeter between wire 70 (any handy 50V coil or 50V fuse) and 27-10 on the magic squares feature unit disc. If you don't see 50V, you have an issue with the stuff on schem around H38 (shutter 4B and below) ... which switch depends on whether you have before 4th or before/after 5th enabled.

    a quick check is to step up the selection feature to trip the yellow and/or red rollover trip relays to see if buttons start working. You can also manually trip those relays yourself, but in general it's best to let the selection feature unit do it in case there's other things that need to happen for the game to work right.

    #53 11 months ago

    wrt the squares motor............. what does "wrt' mean ?

    Update.......... After cleaning the Magic squares cams and their fingers; the Motor doesn't Run because
    the relay doesn't close. The relay is ok, it measures 90ohms. I disconnected the wire to the
    coil; the voltage only reads about 20VAC. I measure it with my New meter, both meters read
    about 20VAC.
    That voltage on all those switches should read 50VAC, because they should be tied to
    wire 30; then energize the 'motor relay' when I push A.B.C. etc. to rotate the numbers.
    I can not get continuity to wire 30 tracing it back to the terminal boards near the Xformer.
    I do get continuity to the wire #93-7 on the 'Cabinet' terminal board( left, 6th on right side)
    What am I missing here ? Another modification. My schematic says #611 on my copy.
    **** See attachments

    ScreenHunter_177 Aug. 28 12.32 (resized).jpgScreenHunter_178 Aug. 28 12.36 (resized).jpg
    #54 11 months ago

    "wrt" = with respect to
    Terry K

    #55 11 months ago

    OK........... Thanks.
    I wanted to make sure I knew what 'Witt' was saying.

    #56 11 months ago

    I don't see this 93-7 wire on the schematic. Anyone see it ?
    I don't know why it would work previously, if it doesn't go to wire 30.

    #57 11 months ago

    93-7 goes to the replay meter at schem B18 ... if you have one. It's likely you do and you are seeing continuity thru wire 70 and the transformer.

    continuity can be a big red herring. It's fine if you do one of two things:

    1] make sure the circuit you are looking at is completely isolated from the rest of the game. Coils, lamps and motor windings often have resistance low enough that continuity testers treat them as closed paths. Isolating means opening switches (stick paper between contacts if necessary), positioning wipers, removing lamps or fuses, pulling plugs, or worst case unsoldering wires.

    2] use an ohmeter and notice the difference between almost zero ohms and a few+ ohms. Almost zero means you probably have a good closed circuit path between your two probes, anything a few ohms+ probably means you have an closed path thru other stuff you don't care about.

    buzzers and test lights that don't show resistance values are a problem. You must make sure [1] above is the case.

    back to the problem. I'm not sure we are all talking about the same relays/switches. In your post 53 schematic, the magic squares motor relay is on the back door and it's job is to switch on/off the 120V to run the squares motor. The switches in that circuit are the ones sitting on the relay armatures (circled in yellow in the pic below).

    if you push one of those switches closed or push the index relay armature plate down on the coil top, the squares motor should turn on. Are you saying the motor relay on the back door is not powering when you do that?

    if what you mean is pushing the rail buttons doesn't power the index relays, that's a different circuit. The rail buttons are on the schem around E38 and your problem would likely be in the circuit at/above wire 27-10.

    can give more info as soon as sure what the problem is.

    also on the below pic is circled the slip ring wipers in green. Are those what you cleaned? If so, there's more wipers in the spaces like where the red arrow is pointing, and to get to those you need to take the entire unit apart. If you do have a problem with cruddy wiper connections or numbers that rotate too slowly, guess where the problem usually is . See second pic.
    square components (resized).pngcrud slowing wipers (resized).jpg

    #58 11 months ago

    if you push one of those switches closed or push the index relay armature plate down on the coil top, the squares motor should turn on. Are you saying the motor relay on the back door is not powering when you do that?
    ..................................................... YES, the relay on the back door does NOT energize when the Index coils
    are powered ON by pressing the A,B,C ,etc. buttons to rotate the numbers.
    I do NOT have the 50VAC from wire 30 going to the switches on the armatures you circled in Yellow.
    See first picture in Post#53.
    What terminal board does that wire 30 come from to get the 50V. to those switches ?

    #59 11 months ago

    Ok............ Wire #93-7 does go to one of the meters behind the front door. I measured about 0.5 ohms.
    I had the transformer dis-connected by removing its Jones plug so i wouldn't read thru it. I don't
    know why i still get that low reading, but that's not important now.
    I will include three pictures on the Magic Squares assy.
    One of the terminals there has 50VAC on it, but there is no continuity to the Index switch. I only see
    that wire going to the terminal board below it with the other 2 wires on it. They go around the assy. to the
    'C" section of numbers.
    Where is the connection to the 50V. ? I assume i should have continuity to that 1st. terminal with the
    Green clip wire. That wire goes under the assy.
    IMG_3093 (resized).JPGIMG_3094 (resized).JPGIMG_3095 (resized).JPG

    #60 11 months ago

    your third pic in post 59 looks like where wires 30 and 78-10 connect to the lug strip. Those two wires daisy chain around to all the index switches on the cam edge relays.

    I don't know what is connected to where your green jumper is attached. The lug strip is not documented. I'd guess your green jumper is attached to wire 41-5...it goes to a rivets on the A contact place and is used for homing the square at game reset.

    easiest thing is turn on the game power and grab the voltmeter. Put on probe on wire 70 - the 50V fuse or the fat orange double wires on the index coils - put the other probe on wire 30 where your red arrow is pointing in third pic. Got 50V there? If so, poke wire 30 on a couple of the index switches - your white jumper. If you see 50V there, wire 30 is good.

    now stick one meter probe on wire 30 and put the other one on wire 78-10 in the adjacent lug on the lug strip. With all the index coil switches OPEN, you should see 50V. If you don't, you have a problem with wire 78-10 or the motor relay coil. As a sanity check, put the probes on the two lugs on the motor relay coil and CLOSE an index switch. See 50V?

    if that's all confusing, just stick one meter probe on wire 70 on the motor relay coil, use your white jumper to short closed an index switch, then use your other probe on wire 78-10 at:
    - the motor relay coil
    - the lug strip
    - directly on the white jumper
    - if necessary, wire 30 on the lug strip.

    someplace in there the 50V will drop way down.

    if you're looking at voltages/continuity and kinda poking around with meter probes because wire identification is uncertain, you'll get into trouble. For voltages, most spots not in the lamp or 120V circuits will be connected to either wire 30, wire 70 or neither. When it's neither - because there's no path to either wire 70 or 30 - your voltage reading could be anything and may fluctuate.

    #61 11 months ago

    I only have 20VAC on the index switches. That is why I asked where is the wire located that brings
    the 50VAC to the M.S. assy.
    I am looking at the resistor that is wired to C.U.2 That area is a mess.
    The M.S. unit was working ok, then something happen.

    #62 11 months ago

    The resistor is ok it reads 100 ohms.
    I checked on my 'ShowTime' Bingo and that resistor's other led is soldered to a #30 wire on the same switch.
    C.U.2 has a YELLOW wire on 2A and 2B on 'BeachTime. So I assume that one lead of that resistor should go there to get the 50VAC. for the Magic Squares assy.
    The manual shows that there should be a #30 wire on those switches. But I have NO continuity on those wires
    to the #30 wire on the terminal boards near the Xformer.
    Now i have to find where these wires go ?
    See attachments..........

    ScreenHunter_179 Aug. 30 17.48 (resized).jpgScreenHunter_180 Aug. 30 17.54 (resized).jpg
    #63 11 months ago

    UPdate......... Still trying to find the 50V. , which is wire#30 to the M.S assy. and that resistor.
    I wired the resistor to agree with the Manual, but I still have not found the wire
    that gets me back to wire#30 on the terminal board. There are two locations
    for wire#30 on the terminal boards.
    Since the Bingo was working when using the M.S. with the buttons, the missing
    connection must be connected to the M.S. assy.
    I traced the two wires on the M.S. assy I show pictured in Post 59, the 3rd picture.
    * One goes to the opposite side of the M.S. assy to the other switches.
    ** The other wire goes to the frame of the 'Features' Unit, which provides Wire#30
    and the 50v. for the 'feature lights'. So that is Ok.
    ***** But...... there are two wires on the other side of the M.S. assy where * that wire goes.
    Now I have to hope that wire leads me to my problem.
    Any help from other 'BeachTime Bingo guys who be appreciated.

    #64 11 months ago

    Now I have to hope that wire leads me to my problem.
    Any help from other 'BeachTime Bingo guys who be appreciated.
    ........................... Well I found where the other wire goes... .........................
    It goes to the lites at the top of the Head where the 'BeachTime' lites are, then
    over to the lites under the Credit counter. I did see the 50v. again, but it was intermittent
    again. Maybe the motor has issues ( shorted) .
    Anyway........... why would the schematic show its wired to #30, but its wired this way?
    I will get a picture to add to this post.

    #65 11 months ago

    Pictures for previous Post..
    The wire I traced went to the red arrow. Lites at the top of the Head as stated above post.

    IMG_3097 (resized).JPGIMG_3100 (resized).JPG
    #66 11 months ago

    I cleaned the frame area on the 'features' Unit where the above wire is mounted, and I re-soldered
    all the wires I dis-connected while T/S.
    The motor is running again. I still do not know where the connection is that takes it back to
    wire #30 on the rear terminal board. The lites at the top are part of the 'general illumination', so
    maybe that is the answer......don't know. I will see how consistent the M.S. unit functions.
    **** Two Questions............
    1. How do I get the 6V. drop across those 'general illumination' lites. Using wire#70 as the
    common, I have 50V. to Wire #30 and 6V. from the Xformer tap at location J- 26 . So why is the
    voltage difference ( across the lamps ) not 50-6 = 44V. Is there a center tap on the xformer and
    a different return to Common. ? I would of thought the 'general illumination would use the
    Wire# 70 as a Common. The schematic drawing confused me.
    @ I am sure Nick or 'Witt' can explain it.
    2. When the Bingo detects a Score , what happens first ? I assumed the search relays closed first
    and then the 50V. found its way down to the Replay coil then the Search coil to stop the
    search unit from rotating. Is that correct, or am I on the wrong track when T.S.
    Just want to verify my trouble-shooting technique is correct.
    *** Thanks******

    #67 11 months ago

    back from holiday stuff.

    wire 30 is the common for the 6/17/50V circuits. If you stick a probe on wire 70 at the 50V fuse and poke the other fuses except the 120V, in theory you get values that are 50 +/- some voltage from the other circuit.

    the "some" comes from they way the wires are wound on the transformer. There's a single winding for the 50V, and another winding for the 17V that has a tap hooked on along it's length to get the 6V. Both those windings have one end tied together and become wire 30. but the other ends are independent and the voltage difference will depend on the phase relationship of the two sine waves of the AC, and that depends on how the magnetic field in the transformer is interacting with the windings.

    if the 6/17V was in phase with the 50V (the peak voltages line up), you'd see 44/33V. If the two were 180 degrees out of phase, you'd see 56/17V. Some phase shift in between and you get a voltage in between those extremes.

    you're close on the scoring.

    1] the before 4th selector lock trip relay trips to connect the circuit to the search relays.

    2] as the search wipers spin, if 3+ adjacent search relays power AND the replay counter for that color has not previously stepped high enough to disconnect the circuit, then the search index coil powers and stops the search wipers on the rivets

    3] a switch on the search index unit powers the replay cams index coil, and that releases the replay cams

    4] replay cams index 16C opens and only the path thru the 15 ohm 10 watt resistor is keeping the search index coil powered.

    The idea is you need more current to yank down the armature, less to hold it on the coil top. The resistor reduces the current in the coil once it's powered so less heat is generated.

    5] as the replay cams spin, switch 13B is steadily pulsing the replay register step-up coil to add credits. Depending on the position of the score unit wipers for the winning color, one of replay cams 10A-13A switches is stepping up the replay counter for that color.

    A replay counter can only step 96 times, so payouts are handled by sometimes stepping the replay counter less frequently than the replay register. Ratios in beach time are 1, 1:3, 1:6 and 1:12. e.g. step the replay counter once for every 6 credits added.

    6] when the replay counter steps enough times, the wipers step off the end of the active copper traces and the circuit is disconnected. The search index and replay cams index coils lose power.

    Replay register stepping immediately stops assuming 16A and 16B are adjusted correctly (open when the replay cams index coil is not powered).

    7] even though the search wipers have continued spinning, win detection is disabled until the replay cams lock back home and 14A closes. 16B is supposed to be open during this homing period also.

    since beach time has no R-button locking the search wipers, the delay in win detection due to unhomed replay cams isn't really noticeable...the second win will detect when the search wipers spin around again. On games with an R-button, you may rarely need to push the R button again to detect a second win in a different color.

    #68 11 months ago

    not sure where your problem with wire 30 was, but it's all the same wire daisy chaining to a bunch of places in the game.

    if you measure ohms/continuity from a know wire 30 location to another known wire 30 location and don't get almost zero ohms, you've got a broken daisy chain.

    the most common place for an issue is a plug connection ... but there isn't one between stuff in the head. That leaves possibilities:

    1] one of the places that is a double wire to continue the chain has a bad solder joint or broken wire

    2] the wire is cut/busted somewhere. Usual places are at the big clamps holding the harnesses to the wood or wherever a rodent thought looked tasty. Rodents are fond of the harness in front of the control unit.

    3] in your case there's the terminal strip, so there could be an issue with the solder connection there.

    all that stuff in post 60 was trying to help ya find the issue. With one meter probe on wire 70, you poke wires on the terminal strip, the index relay switches and if ya want any other place wire 30 goes in the game. if you don't see 50V at some spot, that will tell you when you've found a disconnected segment of wire 30.

    there's no rule as to how the game is physically wired ... it's manufacturing convenience. Just because the schem shows a resistor connected to wire 30 on the same line as the one going to the index coil switches doesn't necessarily mean there's a wire directly between those two points.

    occasionally people have the issue where a daisy chained wire is broken. If it appears the problem is in a harness and they can't find it, they just run another wire between a spot that's good and a spot that's bad to hopefully bypass the break. Works if there's only one break.

    wire 30 is probably the worst case for trying to find a break. Once you get to a place the bad wire enters a harness and you can't follow it, you're kinda stuck either unwrapping the harness or taking guesses where the other end went.

    you're really screwed when the issue is a corroded wire buried in the harness since the problem isn't visible and probably not at a clamp or edge of a unit where the wire could abraded. Fortunately that's very rare.

    #69 11 months ago

    the transformer is interacting with the windings.

    if the 6/17V was in phase with the 50V (the peak voltages line up), you'd see 44/33V. If the two were 180 degrees out of phase, you'd see 56/17V. Some phase shift in between and you get a voltage in between those extremes.
    ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' I would have thought the 'General Illumination' would just use
    wire#70 for the Return instead of tying it back to Wire#30. I knew the lites are 6volt bulbs, so I
    assume it was related to the windings of the Xformer.
    *** I opened the harness to find where the other wire at Post 65 in pictuire 2 goes. I show it
    tied to the top lites of the 'general illumination' circuit. I didn't reflow that solder joint, so I don't know why I later got the 50V. back at the Index switch.
    I then got back to T/S. the 'Scoring problem' again. I didn't understand when the
    Search relays 'latched ON'. I assumed that happened first, then the 50V. made its way down to the
    Search Index Coil to stop the search Disc from spinning, then the Replay Cam Index.
    Is the Search Index Coil energized when the relays are 'chattering' ON and OFF and the
    50V. is 'pulsed' thru the system? I ask because I didn't know what to look for when T/S those components.
    Note....... 4 in a Line, and 5 in a line did not Score because one of the contacts on relay #2 appeared closed but was not making a hard connection when Closing.
    ********* So the scoring looks ok now. *********
    I still have issues with the 'Ball lifting' adjustment. Sometimes it works smoothly, and then it doesn't.
    What is the proper method of adjustment to get the above issue working smoothly.
    Thanks

    #70 11 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    I would have thought the 'General Illumination' would just use
    wire#70 for the Return instead of tying it back to Wire#30. I knew the lites are 6volt bulbs, so I
    assume it was related to the windings of the Xformer.
    *** I opened the harness to find where the other wire at Post 65 in pictuire 2 goes. I show it
    tied to the top lites of the 'general illumination' circuit. I didn't reflow that solder joint, so I don't know why I later got the 50V. back at the Index switch.

    The barrel part of all the 6V GI lamp sockets and the outer shell parts of the flat lamp GI sockets are connected to wire 30. See attached image. So is some stuff on the 50V side of the circuits. In post 65 all your red arrows are pointing to wire 30.

    the segments of wire 30 in the game aren't separated for stuff on the 6V vs 50V circuits. The wire can string from a 50V switch to a lamp socket to a contact on a 50V stepper circuit ... doesn't matter ... it's all wire 30 and at the transformer you can see where wire 30 connects to two lugs ... one is a 50V winding end and one is a 6V winding end.

    wire 70 is the hot/fused side of the 50V circuit ... not understanding how it could interact with the 6V circuits.

    if it's not making sense, yell.

    Quoted from JKnPA:

    Is the Search Index Coil energized when the relays are 'chattering' ON and OFF and the
    50V. is 'pulsed' thru the system?

    yup!

    to actually complete the circuit, you need 3+ adjacent search relays to be powered at the same time. Fortunately, electricity turning on/off is a lot faster than the mechanical action of the flapping relays and the spinning make/break/bridge contacts happening on the search disc, so if the search relay switches open and close well, the thing works.

    you can see how the search relay switches complete the circuit around schem I21. Get a closed path from wire 45-6 to wire 65, you have at least 3-in-line win. 45-6 to wire 71-3 is at least a 4-in-line win and to wire 61-3 a 5-in-line win.

    Quoted from JKnPA:

    I still have issues with the 'Ball lifting' adjustment. Sometimes it works smoothly, and then it doesn't.
    What is the proper method of adjustment to get the above issue working smoothly.

    there's two pieces to the ball lifting motor control. The easy one is when the cam 1B switch is out of the notched area of the cam edge. That is the carry over cam switch and it's job is to keep the motor powered until it's spun all the way back to the lift arm lowered position.

    if the motor is turning off during that time, it has to be one of:
    1] 1B switch is flaky
    2] plug connections between cabinet and head bad
    3] if the first ball or extra balls always raise, but balls 2-5 have issues, then the open-at-top switch on the side of the timer unit is flaky.

    usually it's [3]

    if motor doesn't turn on long enough to get the 1B stack out of the notch, manually step up the extra ball unit all the way and see if the problem goes away. If it does, it's a trough switch. If not, it's one of:
    1] lifter start relay switch
    2] shutter cam 2A switch
    3] push the manual lift button ... if that works, it's probably the ball lifter pin switch that is under the pin the ball sits on in the lift chute.

    for the pin switch, you often need to bend the moving blade so the pin is lifted all the way up tight when no ball is in the lifter, then adjust the non-moving blade reasonably close. You need the pin switch to stay closed long enough after the cam starts to rotate to get the 1B switch closed.

    the other variable is those two screws in the linkage between the lifter cam and the lifter. If you make the linkage longer, the lifter will sink lower under the ball that is sitting on the pin switch. That means more cam rotation happens before the ball is lifted off the pin. However, if you make the linkage too long the lifter will jam into the playfield and usually strip the motor gear teeth.

    the more-or-less correct adjustment for the linkage is usually when there's a small gap between the lifter and the ball when lifter is down.

    if you adjust the linkage, plop the playfield down and rotate the lifter thru the coin door by hand to make sure a ball ejects into the runway and the lifter doesn't hit the wood. Ball eject can be a little feeble when done slowly by hand ... the motor does it faster so there's more momentum to toss the ball over the metal edge of the lift chute.

    the other gotcha is people usually don't put the playfield screws back in. That's often ok, but sometimes the playfield can slide forward enough in the cabinet to have the lifter hit the edge of the hole under the red cap. Look and see if the wood is getting chewed up in there. If it is, you either need to use at least one screw to hold the playfield back, cut away some wood, or grind some metal off the lifter so it can't hit the wood.
    wire30gi (resized).png

    #71 11 months ago

    to two lugs ... one is a 50V winding end and one is a 6V winding end.

    wire 70 is the hot/fused side of the 50V circuit ... not understanding how it could interact with the 6V circuits.

    if it's not making sense, yell.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So wire# 30 is actually the Common or Return that is being
    used to energize the various Units and steppers. I was thinking it was the HOT side and wire#70
    was the Return.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I understand how the circuit works from the Relay switches down to the SEARCH and REPLAY index
    coils. I was having a problem of when EXACTLY the search Relays Lock-On. They Lock-On when the
    Search disc passes over the Line defined by the Balls in the holes ? Does it take more than one pass
    or should it happen the first time?
    I asked because I didn't know how to trouble shoot the circuit. I did use your method of stopping
    the search disc to see what would happen.
    *** BTW..... I did mention it was a poor closed contact on the last search relay contact on #2
    that gave me the failure for 4, and 5 in a line.
    It was difficult trying to see what is actually happening when the Search Disc STOPS and the RELAYS
    Lock -On.
    Thanks

    #72 11 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    So wire# 30 is actually the Common or Return that is being
    used to energize the various Units and steppers. I was thinking it was the HOT side and wire#70
    was the Return.

    yup, wire 30 is the common / return wire.

    Quoted from JKnPA:

    I understand how the circuit works from the Relay switches down to the SEARCH and REPLAY index
    coils. I was having a problem of when EXACTLY the search Relays Lock-On. They Lock-On when the
    Search disc passes over the Line defined by the Balls in the holes ? Does it take more than one pass
    or should it happen the first time?

    the search relays lock/stay powered only when the search wipers are stopped from rotating. It's supposed to happen immediately, but there's variables caused by the physical components and movement that can screw things up.

    short answer is:
    1] win scanning - closed playfield hole switches cause search relays to power
    2] win detection - closed search relay switches cause search index coil to power and immediately stop the search wipers on the winning rivets
    3] payout start - replay cams release and credits are adding to the replay register
    4] payout ends - replay counter unit steps up enough times to disconnect circuit to the search index and replay cams index coils
    5] no extra credits added - when all is right, no additional credits are added after the search index coil loses power

    --- can't recommend reading anything below here ---

    win scanning
    ---------------
    referring to the diagrams on manual pages 128 and 129, when the search wipers are rotating clockwise from the diagram position, the wipers contacts at position 0 move towards position 49 and you can see the ABCFG wiper fingers are going to touch rivets that are connected to game wires. Those fingers are the reference ones with a red mark on them, and looking at the chart on page 129 you see at position 49 card positions EFMNW are being checked.

    the card positions are lettered because the actual playfield holes connected to those positions changes if you rotate the squares or move the lines.

    the wiper contacts won't hit all the rivets at position 49 at the same time, but eventually the wipers will all be on rivets. At that time any search relays that are going to power (because there's a ball in that hole position) should be powered. The switches on those search relays are closed, and that in turn powers the search index coil which snags the metal ratchet and hopefully stops those wiper contacts from rotating off the rivets.

    the search wipers are held in place for the duration of the payout.

    so what can go wrong?
    1] poor wiper contact -> rivet connections
    2] poor/wrong slip ring hub connections
    3] poor connection from a playfield hole switch to search disc rivet
    4] in the case of beach time, poor connections in the squares/lines units which break the [3] path

    any of those happen and search relays don't power or power intermittently. Holding the search wipers on the rivets that should detect the win lets you see if the search relays are powering, and using the chart on page 129, you can tell which search relays should be powering.

    win detection
    ---------------
    assuming the search relays are powering, the next thing you need is the search index unit to power and stop the search wiper rotation. How many ways can that go wrong ... :

    5] dirty/misadjusted search relay switch contacts
    6] bad connection anywhere in the path from those search relay switches to the search index coil. Could be more wiper connections on the search disc, score units, replay counter units, or relay cams index switches.
    7] the search index coil is powering, but not stopping the wipers

    check for [7] first. You'll see the search index unit power and let go. The most common problem is the search index unit needs to be loosened on the metal shelf and nudged toward the backglass a little. What's happening is when the ridge on the search index armature grabs the ratchet tooth, the wiper contacts are falling off the edge of the rivets. Moving the whole search index unit forward stops the wipers before they've rotated so far clockwise....but you can go too far. Move the unit too much and the ridge slams onto the top of a ratchet tooth and gets kicked away long enough to miss the tooth it was supposed to grab.

    if the search index coil is doing nothing and you check the coil itself is ok, the easiest way to debug this is just jumper wire 45-6 on search relay #3 to one of the three "outputs" of the search relay switch maze AND below the routing back through the search disc wipers. Wire 61-3 is good because it doesn't go back thru the search disc, but if you want to look at 3-in-line or 4-in-line, connect the jumper from 45-6 to the wires going into the top of the score discs on the schem.

    with the jumper on, you don't care that the search relays are flapping. You should have a closed circuit path from wire 30 all the way to search index coil, so if you put a meter probe on wire 70, you can poke around everywhere along the path from wire 30 to 15-2 and see where the 50V drops/disappears.

    if you want to be super lazy, just connect wire 30 directly to the score disc wires (e.g. 54-3, 83-8 or 61-3 on the yellow score disc). If you still have no search index coil powering you know the problem is further down the schem and the circuit should be always closed.

    generally you poke at easy places to get to and someplace in the middle of circuit first then work your way up/down. If you need to see voltages on stuff under the playfield, it's often easiest to poke the plug connections first to see if you need to go under there to check stuff.

    if the search index is powering and stopping the search wipers on the rivets, but the game just sits there doing nothing...

    payout start
    --------------
    8] the relay cams index unit didn't get powered to release the replay cams.
    9] one credit gets added and the search wipers release. The process repeats adding one credit at a time.

    [8] is pretty easy as the only thing that can cause that is a bad coil, a search index unit switch not closing, or a mechanical issue with the index unit. [9] is either an issue with a power resistor on the search index coil, dirty/misadjusted replay cams index switches, a bad replay register step-up coil causing large current surge, misadjusted switches on search index unit

    payout ends
    --------------
    if the replay cams are spinning, you almost certainly have credits being added and you've only got a couple hurdles left.

    10] runaway payout / payout never stops.
    11] payout stops early

    [10] is usually a bad switch in the replay cams stacks. Some payouts will work right because they use different switches. The chart on manual page 126 shows which switch is being used to step up the replay counter for the win.

    [11] is usually bad wiper-> trace connection on the replay counter disc. Payout typically stops when the wipers have stepped off a shorter trace. Note that in many cases multiple traces are connected back to wire 30. The longest trace terminates the payout when the wipers step off.

    no extra credits
    ------------------
    12] payout rounds up to a consistent multiple too much

    almost always misadjusted replay cams index switches being closed when the cam locking pin is riding on the cam edge after the replay cams index coil loses power.

    #73 11 months ago

    I am saving your Post so I can Digest it completely.
    ..............................................................................
    the search relays lock/stay powered only when the search wipers are stopped from rotating.
    ............................................................................. Are they 'Pulsed' when the Search Disc Wipers'
    first pass over the rivets on that exact ball line, and they then stop later; or do the Wipers stop EXACTLY
    on the correct ball line for the Win the first time they touch them ?
    I don't suppose there is a Timing chart that explains this.
    I saw a Post from last year where you and Nick talked about a 'timing chart' for the Ball Lifter'.
    ***** OK........ I will save your post and read the complete thing.
    THANKS....
    John

    #74 11 months ago
    Quoted from baldtwit:

    the wiper contacts won't hit all the rivets at position 49 at the same time, but eventually the wipers will all be on rivets. At that time any search relays that are going to power (because there's a ball in that hole position) should be powered. The switches on those search relays are closed, and that in turn powers the search index coil which snags the metal ratchet and hopefully stops those wiper contacts from rotating off the rivets.
    the search wipers are held in place for the duration of the payout.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Ok......... So it ALL happens immediately while the wipers are on that one set of Rivets.
    Its hard to believe the Search Unit can stop that fast.
    Thanks.......

    #75 11 months ago
    Quoted from JKnPA:

    Are they 'Pulsed' when the Search Disc Wipers'
    first pass over the rivets on that exact ball line, and they then stop later; or do the Wipers stop EXACTLY
    on the correct ball line for the Win the first time they touch them ?
    I don't suppose there is a Timing chart that explains this.
    I saw a Post from last year where you and Nick talked about a 'timing chart' for the Ball Lifter'.

    there's all sorts of ugliness that's happening due to coil inductance (building/collapsing magnetic fields in the coils), mechanical wear, imperfect connections, the physical distance stuff needs to move, arcing, etc.

    with the wipers spinning at 19rpm (or 22 rpm in some later machines), it all still works with enough margin to not be too finicky.

    there's no diagram that shows the higher level sequence of events for win detection and payout (or anything else), and it can be even murkier if you don't have the timing diagrams for cams which show you when switches toggle relative to each other.

    Nick had the issue that to accurately emulate the games, you need to know the timing ... i.e. you need to know where the bumps are on the cams so you know when the switches change state.

    the other thing that helps it all make sense is remembering that stepper units actually rotate the wipers when the step-up coil loses power. That lets you use the same power pulse to do something like trip a trip relay and step a unit. The relay will trip if the stepper wipers are completing the circuit BEFORE the wipers move, but won't trip if the circuit completes after the wipers step because the power is gone. You'll mostly see this with the before/after 4th/5th trip relays and how they interact with the timer unit wipers.

    #76 11 months ago

    I finally got to play a few games.......

    IMG_3103 (resized).JPG
    #77 11 months ago

    is your F line moving/registering ok and the number strip position needs adjusting, or is the line not indexing at the right spot and the numbers don't detect properly because the wiper contacts aren't on rivets?

    if it's the second one, you may be able to loosen the locking relay assembly and slide it up/down some to center the wipers on the rivets and move the number strip.

    #78 11 months ago

    if it's the second one, you may be able to loosen the locking relay assembly and slide it up/down some to center the wipers on the rivets and move the number strip.
    ****** I think its this one.
    I didn't notice it at the time.
    Thanks

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 99.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 29.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 125.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    pinballmod
    $ 27.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 79.99
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    PinGraffix Pinside Shop
    $ 5,899.00
    Pinball Machine
    Little Shop Of Games
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 12.75
    $ 229.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 9.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    pinballmod
    $ 10.00
    Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
    UpKick Pinball
    $ 40.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    $ 5,899.99
    Pinball Machine
    Music City Pinball
    $ 40.99
    Lighting - Interactive
    Lee's Parts
    From: $ 99.99
    $ 54.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lermods
    $ 25.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Back Alley Creations
    $ 239.99
    Cabinet - Toppers
    Tilttopper
    From: $ 449.00
    $ 11.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 99.00
    Playfield - Other
    Arcade Upkeep
    $ 76.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    There are 78 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside