(Topic ID: 337785)

Battery leakage: What are my options?

By Hodijag

10 months ago


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  • 18 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by mbwalker
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 10 months ago

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum and also new to pinball machines.
I always wanted a pinball and when I finished the game room in our house last year, I decided it could not remain without a pinball.
I researched what types of machines existed and since I knew I would not be allowed to fill the game room with several pinball machines, I decided to look for a machine which I probably would be able to enjoy for years without getting bored with it. From what I learned researching the topic, Medieval madness was one of the machines which could fulfill these requirements, and as is often the case, who looks finds and I found a Medieval Madness for sale not too far from where I live.
I suppose you will think it was Madness for me as a newbie with limited knowledge to go hunting for a Medieval Madness myself without backup. It probably was, but it resulted in the acquisition of a Medieval Madness.
I think I got lucky. I spent quite a bit of time replacing bulbs, tracing bad contacts and setting the flippers right but I got it all sorted and the machine proved to be all I had wanted.

When I got it I checked for battery corrosion and indeed found a little bit on the battery holder terminals.
I did as shown in so many you tube videos, got some ear sticks and vinegar and cleaned the terminals with the board in place until they looked nice and shiny again. This was one year ago.
I did not think too much of this any more, but yesterday I decided to have another look and I now know it is BS to tell people to clean a bit around the terminals.
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It became clear the battery alkali had come back with a vengeance and has spread a little downward and sideways on the board.

I took out the board and went for the thorough vinegar, water, alcohol routine, but of course the damage is still there. Dull solder around the resistors , ic and capacitor below the battery holder and a dark green area on the circuit board near the corner of the battery holder.
The board now looks like this:

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My question now is what to do?
Obviously, a remote battery holder or other option for the battery place/technology is needed but what else would you do.

How stable would it be in the current situation?
Is it necessary to replace the components with dull soldering connections?
Is the dark green area on the board stable or is there still cancer under the varnish?

I could hand in the board to a professional asking them to take care of the issue, but will they do a lot more than I did and do they really manage to stop the rot?

Would you maybe invest in a new board?
I see modern replacement board being offered, but I don’t like the non original look and am not sure of the quality. Are there opinions on which replacement boards to go for and which ones to stay away from?

I know, many questions and possibly a million opinions but it boils down to what would you do in this case?

Thanks a lot for any insight, tips and tricks.

Have yourself a very nice WE,

Marc

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#2 10 months ago

wire brush the crud off and hope it still works for a long while. you might want to start there. It does not appear to have been festering very long.

send off to pro to thoroughly clean it up

get replacements

#3 10 months ago

You still have alkaline damage on the board. Take a nice stiff toothbrush and scrub all the areas with vinegar. Let it sit for a few minutes then flush with distilled water. Used compressed air to blow thoroughly dry.

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#4 10 months ago

I personally would just buy a new one . For a few hundred dollars you will have a worry free and clean board . You won’t think everything that’s a little weird is a board issue . Then if you wanted I would send it off to a pro and have them go through it and keep it as a back up .

#5 10 months ago
Quoted from Phatchit:

I personally would just buy a new one . For a few hundred dollars you will have a worry free and clean board . You won’t think everything that’s a little weird is a board issue . Then if you wanted I would send it off to a pro and have them go through it and keep it as a back up .

That’s really not true; if a rotten dog is your only option and there’s a problem, you’ll always wonder. The QC on those boards ain’t great.

Original always a better option for WPC. Send the board out for repair. $150 and a couple months later you are set.

#6 10 months ago

I like keeping the original option. There are some great techs out there that can take care of this board for you. You might be down awhile but it would be original and as good as it would get. While they are at it have the tech remove the battery holder off the board or have them install an NVRAM.

#7 10 months ago
Quoted from pokerag2:

I like keeping the original option. There are some great techs out there that can take care of this board for you. You might be down awhile but it would be original and as good as it would get. While they are at it have the tech remove the battery holder off the board or have them install an NVRAM.

This is the best advice. I have had a number of these repairs done by Chris Hibler. He can make it better than original and to me that’s a better option than a replacement. Great communication and very fair price.

http://chrishiblerpinball.com/

The process and prices are on his web site. Also can see a lot of his repairs on YouTube. .

#8 10 months ago

That board doesn't look that bad at all. No need to replace it. Just brush off with old toothbrush and install remote battery. For added measure, you could apply vinegar to the corroded areas then wash off. In any event, that board should last you a very long time.

#9 10 months ago

Can I ask one additional question?
When the battery fluid leaks onto the conformal (green) coating on the PCB the coating darkens.
I was wondering whether it is just the top layer of the conformal coating which is attacked or whether it needs to be assumed that the copper traces under the conformal coating in the dark areas are also affected by the battery fluid and will rot over time.
Does the vinegar treatment on the dark conformal coating fully eliminates the battery fluids in the conformal coating?

Thank you for any information on this.
Marc

#10 10 months ago
Quoted from Hodijag:

Can I ask one additional question?
When the battery fluid leaks onto the conformal (green) coating ...
Marc

Battery Acid is insidious. It gets in the traces. The trace IS compromised, but remove as much battery acid (alkaline) obvious corrosion as possible and I've seen a lot of these 'dark green conformal coating' traces continue to work. Sometimes for a year, sometimes for many many years. It all depends on how much alkaline is creeping under the coating. The only practical way to get the vinegar (acid) to the copper of the trace is to scrape off the conformal coating which is covering up the dark black copper top of the trace. I've done some work here with fiberglass brushes:

https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-FGB

But it's easy to scrape the trace itself thinner and thinner as you remove the conformal coating leading to breaking the connection and having to install a lot of 'bug wires' out of 30 gauge wire wrap wire to fix what you scraped off... it's do-able, but not actually worth it. Dark green conformal traces I generally leave as they are until the alkaline damage breaks the connection... then I use the 30 gauge wire to fix the connections that are broken.

Here is my friend Lenny's answer to battery acid (alkaline) damage:

Replace anything that is grey or greyish-green with shiny. In your case, the CPU socket is compromised, probably the 6809 CPU chip itself, the 74LS14, a handful of resistors and capacitors and diodes. Long experience says replace any component that is compromised.

Or not.

You can attempt to stop further problems by really cleaning, maybe using some vinegar solution. I've crossed my fingers and hoped before. About one in five boards continue working well year after year. The other four boards you end up replacing the CPU board. Most acid (alkaline) damage is much more severe than what you have, so maybe you'll get lucky... Or you'll replace the board.

Which is my advice.

Replace the CPU board, get the batteries off the board if you need to keep a midnight madness real time clock working, otherwise replace the Ram chip on the replacement board with NVRAM.

If you send the acid compromised board out for repair ask them to put the ram chip in a socket and replace the chip with NVRAM when you get it back... desoldering ram chips on this cpu isn't all that difficult as far as these things go, but if you've got a professional already looking at the board it's a job best left to the guy who does a LOT of this.

This is a much lighter case of battery acid (damage) than most... but I strongly suspect you'll be replacing the CPU board if you don't have it professionally repaired.

Good luck!

#11 10 months ago
Quoted from PinRetail:

Battery Acid is insidious. It gets in the traces. The trace IS compromised, but remove as much battery acid (alkaline) obvious corrosion as possible and I've seen a lot of these 'dark green conformal coating' traces continue to work. Sometimes for a year, sometimes for many many years. It all depends on how much alkaline is creeping under the coating. The only practical way to get the vinegar (acid) to the copper of the trace is to scrape off the conformal coating which is covering up the dark black copper top of the trace. I've done some work here with fiberglass brushes:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-FGB
But it's easy to scrape the trace itself thinner and thinner as you remove the conformal coating leading to breaking the connection and having to install a lot of 'bug wires' out of 30 gauge wire wrap wire to fix what you scraped off... it's do-able, but not actually worth it. Dark green conformal traces I generally leave as they are until the alkaline damage breaks the connection... then I use the 30 gauge wire to fix the connections that are broken.
Here is my friend Lenny's answer to battery acid (alkaline) damage:
Replace anything that is grey or greyish-green with shiny. In your case, the CPU socket is compromised, probably the 6809 CPU chip itself, the 74LS14, a handful of resistors and capacitors and diodes. Long experience says replace any component that is compromised.
Or not.
You can attempt to stop further problems by really cleaning, maybe using some vinegar solution. I've crossed my fingers and hoped before. About one in five boards continue working well year after year. The other four boards you end up replacing the CPU board. Most acid (alkaline) damage is much more severe than what you have, so maybe you'll get lucky... Or you'll replace the board.
Which is my advice.
Replace the CPU board, get the batteries off the board if you need to keep a midnight madness real time clock working, otherwise replace the Ram chip on the replacement board with NVRAM.
If you send the acid compromised board out for repair ask them to put the ram chip in a socket and replace the chip with NVRAM when you get it back... desoldering ram chips on this cpu isn't all that difficult as far as these things go, but if you've got a professional already looking at the board it's a job best left to the guy who does a LOT of this.
This is a much lighter case of battery acid (damage) than most... but I strongly suspect you'll be replacing the CPU board if you don't have it professionally repaired.
Good luck!

Not sure why you keep calling it battery acid when it is alkaline leakage . Huge difference between the two. Potassium hydroxide is just about on the opposite end of the PH spectrum of sulphuric acid.

#12 10 months ago
Quoted from PinRetail:

Battery Acid is insidious. It gets in the traces.

You talking about your car battery!? It contains acid.

Quoted from generalgman:

Not sure why you keep calling it battery acid when it is alkaline leakage .

In your pinball machine, you are correct!

#13 10 months ago

Thanks a lot for all your replies.

I asked around a bit here in the Netherlands for repairing the board, but the consensus seems to be it just gets too involved (read expensive) even for minor repairs such as this to make it economically viable to repair the board properly, which is remove and replace all the components affected, remove the conformal coating in the dark areas, resolder the tracks there and redo the conformal coating on the repaired area.

Since the board works fine as it is, I suppose removing the battery holder and replacing it with a remote and give it another good vinegar/ alcohol clean myself is the way to go in this case.
I might have a look into replacing the affected components myself but I am not sufficiently equipped to do a proper job (de soldering station) and I don’t have the time to get involved in this right now.

Time/ money wise, I gues a replacement board is the way to go when looking long term fiability, even if I would have preferred to keep it all original.

Kind regards

Marc

#14 10 months ago

The stuff on the parts can be cleaned up. But the discoloration under the soldermask is a bit disconcerting. Not so much the ground plane, more concerned about the traces.

Are you able to remove the battery holder so we can have a 'look see' underneath? You mention you don't have the skill set/time for some repairs, but is removing the battery holder something you're able to do? Just curious if it's a mess under there or if more traces are affected.

#15 10 months ago

Hodijag: I would have the board professionally repaired and keep using it. That said, your location/shipping may make this highly cost prohibitive. I also think that all your posts have you leaning towards a new board to begin with and you do not seem comfortable that a repair will last. Keep in mind that this isn't an airplane where failure means disaster- if the old board died for some reason you can still replace it down the road. Also remember this is pinball and stuff will constantly break whether it is this board or something else.

Regardless - if your comfort level says replace the board - you should definitely replace it.

Personally I put NVRAM in all my games - for reasons you now know batteries are terrible and shouldn't be in any pinball machines. I suggest your new board have NVRAM instead of batteries.

#16 10 months ago

I removed the battery holder and this is what is behind it in case you are wondering.

I think that having a professional adressing the coper paths in all the affected dark conformal coating areas, i.e. Removing the conformal coating, cleaning the copper trails and recoating makes no economical sense.

Messing with the conformal coating myself is not an option.

I am going to ask around if one of my friends has proper soldering/desoldering equipment and if that is the case I will see if I can replace the affected components.

I will put in a remote battery holder, give it another good acid scrub and then hope for the best.

Maybe I will still get a new board if all of the above starts eating up too much time. I am too busy right now for another project.

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#17 10 months ago

Pour on some vinegar, scrub with a toothbrush, rinse and dry. Install remote battery. You'll be good to go for a long time.

#18 10 months ago
Quoted from Hodijag:

I removed the battery holder and this is what is behind it in case you are wondering.
I think that having a professional adressing the coper paths in all the affected dark conformal coating areas, i.e. Removing the conformal coating, cleaning the copper trails and recoating makes no economical sense.
Messing with the conformal coating myself is not an option.
I am going to ask around if one of my friends has proper soldering/desoldering equipment and if that is the case I will see if I can replace the affected components.
I will put in a remote battery holder, give it another good acid scrub and then hope for the best.
Maybe I will still get a new board if all of the above starts eating up too much time. I am too busy right now for another project.
Kind regards and thanks to all for your input[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I recall many decades ago at work, we use to use an electric eraser to remove solder mask on engineering prototypes. Worked rather well.

I know you're not going to try to clean it up further, more of a FYI.

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