(Topic ID: 168122)

Battery leak in NGG, Suggestions please


By Robl45

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 132 posts
  • 21 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by PinballManiac40
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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MPU back damage (resized).png
20160906_190315 (resized).jpg
20160906_065148 (resized).jpg
20160906_065053 (resized).jpg
20160906_065127 (resized).jpg
NGG security chip (resized).png
20160905_164639 (resized).jpg

There are 132 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 2 years ago

I'm beside myself at my stupidity at this point, Games put away for 5 years and two of them have batteries in them, don't know about the third. I knew to take the batteries out, I just can't believe it. Anyway, on my other thread, TOM was okay, this is NGG, I fear I need a new board?

20160905_164639 (resized).jpg

#2 2 years ago

Ouch!! Yes, I would just install another board and sell this one on Ebay.

#3 2 years ago

What brand batteries and what is the expiration date on them?

#4 2 years ago

2011 expiration. Duracell. Is there no way to send it out for repair or clean off the acid? These things seem to be 300 dollars with the chips. Thats 300 more than I have at the moment. LOL. Are the chips I need to remove on the new blank board damaged too? Some of the socketed ones look damaged.

#5 2 years ago

NGG CPU isn't going to be cost effective to have repaired; at least the ASIC looks okay in the picks, you can probably salvage it.

#6 2 years ago

ebay.com link » Williams Pinball Wpc 95 Cpu Mpu Pcb Board A 20119 For Parts Or Repair

What about this? Is it possible to see from the pics if its good? What chips would I need to replace? The rom seems fine as its on the other side of the board.

I can't just soak the whole board in vinegar and water, dry it out and try it? What happens if I just turn it on as is? Smoke and explosiions or it just won't work correctly?

#7 2 years ago

Agreed. You need to remove the parts of the board that are in sockets to move to the new/replacement board.

Even though the batteries had expired, I think it is worth contacting Duracell to see if they will offer anything in this situation. So you need to put the batteries in a zip lock bag and send them with the board if they will agree to anything.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/watch-out-for-cheap-batteries#post-283179

Post #6 from the thread

I buy Duracell because of this:

DURACELL® BATTERY GUARANTEE

If you're not completely satisfied with a Duracell® product, contact us.

All of our batteries are guaranteed against defects in material and workmanship. Should any device be damaged by these batteries due to such defects, we will either repair or replace it if it is sent with the batteries. Send with postage prepaid to:

Duracell
Berkshire Corporate Park
Bethel, CT 06801
Att: Consumer Dept.
Phone: 1-800-551-2355

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

ebay.com link » Williams Pinball Wpc 95 Cpu Mpu Pcb Board A 20119 For Parts Or Repair
What about this? Is it possible to see from the pics if its good? What chips would I need to replace? The rom seems fine as its on the other side of the board.
I can't just soak the whole board in vinegar and water, dry it out and try it? What happens if I just turn it on as is? Smoke and explosiions or it just won't work correctly?

I'm afraid not. That board is in no better shape than yours. Any parts that were affected would also need to be replaced.

Original boards are hard to come by, so it will be best just to go with a new replacement board.

#9 2 years ago

Most after market boards will not have the ASIC, CPU, or ROM.

#10 2 years ago

So I can't clean this board or at least attempt it? I figured I could at least try and clean it. Is it safe to drop the whole thing in vinegar and water or do parts have to be removed first? I figure its worth a shot.

#11 2 years ago

http://littleshopofgames.com/product/williams-wpc95-mpu-board-wpc095/
If you go this route, toss the remote battery pack and install a NVRAM, which the old style RAM is in a socket so it will be an easy replacement.

-1
#12 2 years ago

Why on earth would Duracell help in this matter? Their batteries were disclosed as being no good 5+ years ago and he's going to complain about... what exactly?

To the OP - you can seek out members who repair boards on here. I think you may find it cost prohibitive. My suggestion is to replace board and sell this board to a member who repairs to recover some of your costs. Obviously you now know never to use batteries in a game EVER because this can still happen with brand new batteries.

If you want to soak the board in water and vinegar and then let it dry for a few days and prey you can do that. I'm 95% sure it still won't boot or play properly but you can hope. Even if it did work you'd have a time bomb that will break soon.

Do not under any circumstances run that board as is. You will risk breaking more parts and spending more money.

It's a mistake and it sucks - all you can do is learn from it. I'm sorry to see this happen to your game.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

So I can't clean this board or at least attempt it?

You will be better off putting your money toward the new Rottendog replacement.

#14 2 years ago

The bottom 2 pins of the security chip are corroded. That part itself is $40 plus shipping.
I can't tell whether the other socketed parts were damaged at U1, U9 and the game ROM.NGG security chip (resized).png

#15 2 years ago

Does the game run? My Congo had a corroded mpu. Worked okay up until it wouldn't boot. Rottendog replacement was only $135. I used all my chips but needed new ribbon cables.

#16 2 years ago

With the green on u15 that board is garbage. Costly mistake for sure.

#17 2 years ago

You could try it but it might cause something to lock on and do damage to other items.

#18 2 years ago

So I pulled the board out. back looks okay, pulled out the rom and security chip. The security chip on the a couple of legs had some green, but looks okay, Can I just clean that with vinegar? I would like to try and clean this board just for the heck of it before I spend more money, I"m just unsure if I can dump the whole thing in vinegar and let it sit like I did for the corroded battery holder in TOM. Is that okay for the chips? Then assuming cleaning fails, is there a recommended place to get this from? Is it easy enough to get the ASIC out or should I get a special tool? saw something about doing it with 2 paperclips.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Rottendog replacement was only $135.

From?

#20 2 years ago

Don't know didn't try, figured I should at least attempt to clean first. Waiting on proper way to do it before I try.

Quoted from jawjaw:

Does the game run? My Congo had a corroded mpu. Worked okay up until it wouldn't boot. Rottendog replacement was only $135. I used all my chips but needed new ribbon cables.

#21 2 years ago

You can just plug in the power to the MPU at J210 to see if it boots up. Hold the board along the edges of the board when you turn on the game.

-4
#22 2 years ago

You're not alone, this seems to be a common problem among the older pins. First pull your ROM chips and set them aside (you will need it if the board is damaged beyond repair.)

In the case of battery acid like the board pictured, the board should be neutralized with a mixture of baking soda and water forming a thin paste. Gently scrub the paste into the PCB with a toothbrush and let it sit for 20-30 minutes. Note that acids can often get *under* the protective solder-mask coating of a PCB and travel along the traces to areas quite far from where the visible battery damage has occurred. A neutralizing "soak" with the base mixture will help mitigate any further ingress of the acid.

The actual cleaning of the board can usually be safely accomplished by
spraying the surface with a generous amount of a household, non-phosphate
based cleaner. "Simple Green" and "409" seem to work quite well. Let the
cleaner sit for 10-15 seconds to loosen the dirt and then scrub lightly with
an old toothbrush or (A 2.5" wide nylon paintbrush will make short work of removing the grunge. Once the board is scrubbed down, you will need to rinse it *very* well with water. Technically speaking, purified water should be used, but tap water is probably fine for 99% of applications.

After rinsing, carefully blot the circuit board dry with a clean terry-cloth
towel (and shake it to get hidden water out). Compressed air (either from a
can or a compressor) can also be used to blow off excess water.

Thorough drying of the circuit board is critical. While hand-drying the
board, preheat a household oven to about 170 degrees F. Once the oven is up
to temperature, turn the oven OFF, and place the cleaned PCB inside the oven
and close the door. Allow then board to dry for 2-3 hours. (Overnight is
fine.) It's a good idea to warn roommates/spouse when you do this. Having
someone preheat the oven the while you board is still in the oven sucks! After the drying cycle is complete you can remove your board from the oven and perform a visual inspection for any damage.

You will need to replace any chips, resistors, or diodes that are damaged, expanded or discolored.

Worst case you will need to buy the updated replacement board for $199.99 Part # MPU095 (Please insure I'm correct on the part number!)

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

I would like to try and clean this board just for the heck of it before I spend more money, I"m just unsure if I can dump the whole thing in vinegar

Just dunking the whole board will guarantee the damage to spread faster. There is much more involved in just cleaning parts. You must remove the parts that were hit, sand down traces, clean the areas that were affected with vinegar and then follow with alcohol, and then install new parts. Many hours involved in doing the job right.

Quoted from Robl45:

Is it easy enough to get the ASIC out or should I get a special tool?

You would need a special PLCC chip puller to remove the U9 ASIC chip.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-ICE

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Just dunking the whole board will guarantee the damage to spread faster. There is much more involved in just cleaning parts. You must remove the parts that were hit, sand down traces, clean the areas that were affected with vinegar and then follow with alcohol, and then install new parts. Many hours involved in doing the job right.

You would need a special PLCC chip puller to remove the U9 ASIC chip.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-ICE

I get that, however I'm not doing that,I just want to give it a shot before going out and buying a new board for 200 plus dollars. Can the chips safely get wet? Is that a problem? Worse case I need a new board, but no harm in trying to see if I can salvage this one.

As for the puller, I can get that chip puller, saw it mentioned somewhere, but is it definately a no go on the paper clip method I saw mentioned? Someone else sells a tool that says you lift up a bit on one end and then move the tool to the other end, that sounds risky to me.

#25 2 years ago

There is no short cut here. If you "just try it" by half heartedly cleaning it and drying you not only risk damaging other things in the machine BUT also damaging the chips you need to re-use in any new board you might buy.

You have four choices as I see it.

(1) Send the board out and pay to have it repaired ($150 ???)

(2) Buy a replacement and swap over your chips ($200 ???)

(3) Sell the machine "as-is" and walk away from it

(4) Try your patch-it methods (which will not work) and risk damaging more and end up costing $????? - probably hundreds

There is NO short cut here. There is damage to the electronics and it must be fixed PROPERLY or replaced - end of story.

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from RickAHG:

In the case of battery acid like the board pictured, the board should be neutralized with a mixture of baking soda and water forming a thin paste.

THIS IS SO WRONG!!!!
Batteries leak alkaline not acid. To neutralize it you must use a acid like vinegar then 99% isopropyl alcohol to clean it after.
This only works on lightly damaged boards. The boatd in his ngg is toast like complete garbage. It will probably cause damage to other things in his machine if he trys to clean it and use it causing alot more damage to other components.

-2
#27 2 years ago

Right now I'd just like to find the right way to clean it. In theory I could potentially do some of the repairs depending on how bad it is, but I need to clean it off first. I don't see what the big issue is, worse case I destroy the board, best case I save 200 dollars.

Quoted from Homepin:

There is no short cut here. If you "just try it" by half heartedly cleaning it and drying you not only risk damaging other things in the machine BUT also damaging the chips you need to re-use in any new board you might buy.
You have four choices as I see it.
(1) Send the board out and pay to have it repaired ($150 ???)
(2) Buy a replacement and swap over your chips ($200 ???)
(3) Sell the machine "as-is" and walk away from it
(4) Try your patch-it methods (which will not work) and risk damaging more and end up costing $????? - probably hundreds
There is NO short cut here. There is damage to the electronics and it must be fixed PROPERLY or replaced - end of story.

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

I don't see what the big issue is, worse case I destroy the board, best case I save 200 dollars.

Are you not reading what anyone posts? You ask for advice and then ether totally ignore it or didn't read it.

THE ACID DAMAGE IS SEVERE!! IT CAN CAUSE DAMAGE TO COMPONENTS ON OTHER BOARDS IF YOU USE IT. IT CAN ALSO CAUSE COILS TO LOCK ON UNDER THE PLAYFIELD AND MELD AND ALSO DESTROY THIER CONTROLLING TRANSISTORS. THIS WOULD COST YOU ALOT MORE THEN A NEW BOARD.

You forgot about the batteries and now it cost you a new board. If you can't afford it sell the game as is or wrap it back up till you can.

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from RickAHG:

In the case of battery acid like the board pictured, the board should be neutralized with a mixture of baking soda and water ...

I made the same mistake yesterday Rick. It's not acid that has leaked, so it doesn't get cleaned with a base. See Terryb's guide for a great explanation.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Repairing_Alkaline_Corrosion

Terryb's great guide
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-repairing-alkaline-battery-damage

#30 2 years ago

You guys are right, the board is in bad shape, I"m going to have to get a new one unfortunately. So how about salvaging the chips. The Rom is fine, the ASIC I believe is fine. The Security chip and other other chip each have one or two legs that were green, but they both look fine, can I salvage those chips? I could try to send the board to get repaired if that would be cheaper, but its definitely more than I can handle.

#31 2 years ago

There is no "cheap, fast, easy" way to resolve this problem.

WARNING - Cargument:

If you hit a tree in your car and crush the front - will you get a hammer and some sticky tape and try and fix it? Probably not.

You have to realise you made an error, accept that and move forward. Just "trying to patch it" WILL NOT WORK and will likely cause much more damage.

The damage you can potentially cause will be FAR greater than just the board damage.

I would strip the parts in the affected area and attempt a repair myself BUT it seems your level of competence for this type of repair is low so maybe that is not an option open to you. You can't just "clean it a little bit" and cross your fingers - it doesn't work that way with electronics!

Get some professional help to investigate the board is where you probably should start. Muck with it yourself and then NOBODY will touch it after that and the hole you are digging will be deeper.

#32 2 years ago

Take it out and send it to Rob Anthony and he will do a kick ass job repairing it.

#33 2 years ago

Who is rob Anthony? Will it be cheaper than a new board?

Edit: found and emailed him.

Does anyone think my chips will be okay to move to new board?

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

Who is rob Anthony?

He posts here as Borygard. Check out Chris Hibler and John Wart Jr. too.

LTG : )

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

He posts here as Borygard. Check out Chris Hibler and John Wart Jr. too.
LTG : )

Chris is awesome

#36 2 years ago

Whoever may take on the repair will want to see a picture of the back of the board. I can imagine what it looks like.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Agreed. You need to remove the parts of the board that are in sockets to move to the new/replacement board.
Even though the batteries had expired, I think it is worth contacting Duracell to see if they will offer anything in this situation. So you need to put the batteries in a zip lock bag and send them with the board if they will agree to anything.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/watch-out-for-cheap-batteries#post-283179
Post #6 from the thread
I buy Duracell because of this:
DURACELL® BATTERY GUARANTEE
If you're not completely satisfied with a Duracell® product, contact us.
All of our batteries are guaranteed against defects in material and workmanship. Should any device be damaged by these batteries due to such defects, we will either repair or replace it if it is sent with the batteries. Send with postage prepaid to:
Duracell
Berkshire Corporate Park
Bethel, CT 06801
Att: Consumer Dept.
Phone: 1-800-551-2355

Why would you not at least give this a try before you do anything? All it will cost you is $6.95 shipping and a week's worth of your time.

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from Dooskie:

Why would you not at least give this a try before you do anything? All it will cost you is $6.95 shipping and a week's worth of your time.

Hell, even calling Duracell will only be 10 or 15 minutes of your time.

#39 2 years ago

The batteries expired in 2011. What would I say to Duracell? Chris and John responded. Not econical to repair. Now I just have to figure out if I buy full board with chips or try to reuse mine.

-3
#40 2 years ago

Try to fix it yourself. Buy a new battery holder and yes I would buy a new board mounted battery holder after this episode. Neutralize the acid. Replace what you have to replace but I would think that almost everything there is ok. Try to get it running with that board. If you don't want to mess with it send the board to one of the online studs here. Replacing the board would be my last resort. That damage is minimal IMHO.

#41 2 years ago
Quoted from Robl45:

The batteries expired in 2011. What would I say to Duracell?

Just as stated. You have a damaged board with expired batteries from 2011. Is there any thing covered under Duracell's battery guarantee? Even mention the board was deemed not economical to repair as 2 board techs stated.

Right now, you have nothing to lose by calling, except a little bit more time.

#42 2 years ago

I also think you should contact Duracell. The expiration date refers to the batteries being charged if unused. There is no advertised may leak after this date.

Going dead is normal. Leaking isn't.

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from TVP:

Neutralize the acid.

There is no "acid" to neutralise.

-1
#44 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Just as stated. You have a damaged board with expired batteries from 2011. Is there any thing covered under Duracell's battery guarantee? Even mention the board was deemed not economical to repair as 2 board techs stated.
Right now, you have nothing to lose by calling, except a little bit more time.

So... Ummmm... Do you drink 5 year expired milk and call the farmer from the hospital? He does have something to lose - self respect.

The batteries expired 5 years ago - people should be accountable for not using a product correctly and it sounds like the OP is doing just that. Duracell specifically says not to leave batteries in a device for extended period of time...

-2
#45 2 years ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

So... Ummmm... Do you drink 5 year expired milk and call the farmer from the hospital? He does have something to lose - self respect.
The batteries expired 5 years ago - people should be accountable for not using a product correctly and it sounds like the OP is doing just that.

I agree - I would be too embarrassed to call them and I would expect them to laugh at me down the phone.

#46 2 years ago

this looks bad but its not that crazy.
dont think duracell would care much? i mean why would they 5 years after something expired... i could be wrong, dont buy any of these things for ur pinball machine. quick and easy do a cr2302 battery much cheaper in the long run too.
some say but u have to remove the board? its a 20 second job on the max, not that many connectors.

these batterys have killed off plenty a pin they need to go the way of the dinosaur.

if u have the tools go for it. most ics are not that expensive...

if u not really up to soldering, get a junk board and practice abit... u should be able to get away with just a solder sucker and some solder wick possibly? but obviously a desoldering station would make life easier... on the junk board practice removing stuff etc.

its more a time thing as in what they talk about "economical" parts wise its not crazy unless im missing something ?
for instance u5 is a 74ls14. that ic costs under a dollar?
the worst one on there is u15? 74LS240 costs like under 2 dollars?

desolder everything in that area or that looks like it has been affected, look carefully.
use sockets for the ics u removed. sockets are cheap and make life easier.
check traces after u done with the clean up work, trust me its much more simple to fix a trace when u have nothing in there yet.

#47 2 years ago

In all honesty I have seen worse boards with worse acid damage and my dad and I have fixed them. There hasn't been one that we haven't fixed. With that said you need to have a lot of patience, work ethic, and discipline. You'll need to neutralize it with vinegar, rinse with water, sand off all the corrosion (off all the chips and legs, off all the traces, off all the grounds, everything), test for continuity, you may have corrosion in the connectors as well and you'll have to fix those, etc. If the traces have been destroyed, you'll need to make your own with some wire and solder. You may have to replace some chips/resistors/capacitors as well depending on the amount of damage.

It may seem a bit daunting but it's not too bad if you take it one step at a time. There are plenty of guides out there, just google it. And if you really mess the board up, well the board wasn't going to work with the acid anyway, so you'll end up needing a new one but at least you tried to fix it.

This isn't the most in depth guide and I do not take responsibility for any damage you may or may not do to your game. But you should know that I believe it can be fixed.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from Bugsy:

In all honesty I have seen worse boards with worse acid damage and my dad and I have fixed them. There hasn't been one that we haven't fixed. With that said you need to have a lot of patience, work ethic, and discipline. You'll need to neutralize it with vinegar, rinse with water, sand off all the corrosion (off all the chips and legs, off all the traces, off all the grounds, everything), test for continuity, you may have corrosion in the connectors as well and you'll have to fix those, etc. If the traces have been destroyed, you'll need to make your own with some wire and solder. You may have to replace some chips/resistors/capacitors as well depending on the amount of damage.
It may seem a bit daunting but it's not too bad if you take it one step at a time. There are plenty of guides out there, just google it. And if you really mess the board up, well the board wasn't going to work with the acid anyway, so you'll end up needing a new one but at least you tried to fix it.
This isn't the most in depth guide and I do not take responsibility for any damage you may or may not do to your game. But you should know that I believe it can be fixed.

I doubt you have seen ANY boards with "acid" damage - guys, can we get the terminology right to avoid people making errors when repairing such as using baking soda instead of vinegar etc - this would only make the CORROSION worse!!

#49 2 years ago

Yes excuse me, sorry for trying to make it a more ELI5 post and not up to your standards. Calling it "acid damage" is the same as calling a pop bumper a jet bumper, people pretty much know what you mean. Especially in this thread since the topic is about AA batteries leaking (or Mignon batteries, if that is what you'd like the terminology to be.)

This is from a fellow pinsider in a different thread: "The acetic acid in vinegar neutralizes the alkaline (base) that's leaked from the batteries". The vinegar keeps the alkaline from spreading and causing more damage, it doesn't make it worse if you use the vinegar then clean the board off with water or even better, alcohol.

More info on cleaning battery damage can be found on pinwiki: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Repairing_Alkaline_Damage

#50 2 years ago
Quoted from Bugsy:

Yes excuse me, sorry for trying to make it a more ELI5 post and not up to your standards. Calling it "acid damage" is the same as calling a pop bumper a jet bumper, people pretty much know what you mean. Especially in this thread since the topic is about AA batteries leaking (or Mignon batteries, if that is what you'd like the terminology to be.)
This is from a fellow pinsider in a different thread: "The acetic acid in vinegar neutralizes the alkaline (base) that's leaked from the batteries". The vinegar keeps the alkaline from spreading and causing more damage, it doesn't make it worse if you use the vinegar then clean the board off with water or even better, alcohol.
More info on cleaning battery damage can be found on pinwiki: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Repairing_Alkaline_Damage

That is an excellent quote:

"The acetic acid in vinegar neutralizes the alkaline (base) that's leaked from the batteries". The vinegar keeps the alkaline from spreading and causing more damage, it doesn't make it worse if you use the vinegar then clean the board off with water or even better, alcohol."

It has NOTHING to do with posts being "up to my standards" for one second. People should remind themselves that if you don't use the correct terminology it is all too easy for others to take things the wrong way and cause more damage to things.

Calling things "acid damaged" could mislead some so they start trying to neutralise it using an alkaline and that is what I would like to avoid.

Different pinball companies have called "bumpers" pop, jet and other names so they are all valid.

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