Agreed, but she looks SWEET on the backbox sides on the LE...very hot!!!

Yet by the looks of the game play video BM66 looks to shoot better then both TWD and GB. Put that with Lyman on code and the potential is there for a very good game. And no I don't have one on order so no cheerleading going on here.

Amen Brother, yeah we get it, it's a very expensive toy, much greater cost than usual! Buy it or don't buy it. Meanwhile, the amount of whining, weeping, and gnashing of teeth has reached epic levels in this thread.

What's my impression?

I'll play it if'n I ever see it out & about

My impression is the artwork is awesome, the theme is awesome, the LED display is awesome and the perfect size, the gameplay looks average at best, not having a Pro model sucks, and the inflated price sucks worse. Thumbs down for me no matter how nice looking and how great the theme is!

I can't afford one so perhaps my opinion is moot. If I could afford one, I think I would wait it out for at least 6 months to see where the code goes. It just looks too unfinished right now.

Rob

Read the thread title "what's your impression?" Now I for one will make it very clear at every opportunity that this particular title is way over priced. Yes we all "get it" except for Stern. Maybe if enough people voice it enough they might some day too.

That's what I thought the thread was about too but apparently not all opinions are welcomed by all.

P.S. - I'm allowed back in this thread so I'm gonna tip toe around talking about this game from now on.

Yep definitely looks to shoot better than either of those pins. Lyman took an average shooting pin in TWD and still made it great, so there may be more potential for BM66.

The thing about TWD is once you dialed it in, and its not easy, it shoots like a dream to me. Best MB pin I've ever played shot wise, like a symphony of greatness. It can be a clunky brick fest too, I just loved the unique layout from day one, but that's just me.

Lyman made that pin into something special.

I really love my GBLE but the code and ways to play it are so inferior to what Lyman did with TWD its hard to believe. Still, its really good too.

IF Lyman can take an awesome theme in BM66, integrate that LCD, and work that magic again, then its gonna be another special pin. You could be right Rob, maybe even much more potential there.

Btw, who is Little Doggie down voter?

In Lyman We Trust.

Trust, but verify.

This I find so strange. Why is it that a game is depending on the programmer to be any good. For me it seems the designer should just tell the programmer what he wants te game to be and the programmer just programs it. At Stern everything seems depending on the programmer. What if Lyman is unavailable for a while or indefinately ?

Seems more and more to me that Stern is just a big company in numbers, not in operation. Just my two cents and personal opinion by the way and not meant as trolling. It just is so strange that the pre-popularity of a machine is depending solely on the guy who does the programming. This should not be a factor at all if the designer just says what he wants. Then every programmer could program it and the machine would get the characteristic and soul of the designer, not the programmer.

Is the programmer at Stern also responsible for the audio ? As I see other machines have specific sound designers for that.

Short answer good/bad coding can make or break a game regardless of the physical design.

Long answer and imo

Code has the biggest effect on a game, it can take a simple layout and make it truely great or the other side of it with poor coding it can take the best layout in the world and suck all the fun out of it.

Take ironman (which to my knowledge Lyman finished up and polished) is probably about as simple as you could make a layout but the code (rules, video, audio) makes that game great!

TWD is another great example, this time a complex and unique layout, at first it was a clunk fest, then Lyman spent the time on the code and made it into a masterpiece.

Where as other programmers might have just left it in its original uninspired form, as has happened with past titles. Lyman's track record speaks for itself so it gives buyers more confidence reassurance the code is going to get the time and attention needed to complete it / make it great.

The other thing to remember with Lyman is that he is one of the best pinball players in the world. He is almost certainly the best player working at stern. It really helps when designing rules to be a good player and understand risk reward, what is fun, what is too hard. You could see it in the stream when he commented that Joker mode is too hard right now. It will likely change.

I don't buy into the Lyman can do no wrong argument. He has worked on games where I think the rules are the failing. Heck, even AC/DC which is great, is a failure in balance.

I am really excited about BM66, but super disappointed with the state of polish right now. Below the glass looks like a great game. Audio / video I guess needs to wait until rules are finalized.

Designers are layout designers. The coder is the one who comes up with the rules in the first place.

Agreed and I am fully aware of this. But isn't it strange that it is this way ? Why does Stern not make Lyman head programmer that delegates programming jobs to other - less inspired - programmers. So in a way grow up as a company and make any and every new title the best it can be. The head programmer can then also be in contact with the designer at the playfield designing stage to maximize the potential of the layout. He could even train someone else to think like him so if he is on vacation or otherwise engaged someone can keep the job going.

What I mean is: they keep doing it like they did 30 years ago. Why not take the next step as they are getting bigger and push out a lot more titles. There should be room for a construction like this and it would make software development quicker and much better and most importantly, every title would be potentialy a great game.

I don't understand it, maybe it's just me I simply just don't like the game. The artwork looks like a lick and stick, the music is week, the so-called interactive play with the LCD has been overstated IMO and the play field is too dark. Like I said early maybe future code updates will make the light show better like it did with GB. When I first got GB it looked like the play field was lit up with over the top "whites" then when I updated it with 1.11 it turned into an awesome game with bright colors and call outs. So maybe there is hope for this one, but I'm still out even for a premium just on the layout alone..

First off using a one of game is a joke.Look at the price of the next game or last game I don't see Stern sticking with the $15,000 game The last pro msrp was $5995. You also fail to mention the move to a 110,000 sq ft factory

Good Points. I asked "Coders" on the Stern tour, why there isnt a team of coders working on a game, or why they arent outsourcing some of the mundane needs.
Even if there isnt a Library of code to be reused, and edited.

Unfortunately, the answer is pretty much...thats the way it is.

What gets to me is this game was started long ago, and 12 weeks roughly since expo.
It wasnt ready then. Or as the release of the title was earlier in the year...lots of time to code for release.

Im not questioning anyone here, or trying to insult, but I do understand, parts, and fabrication delays...its a whole new physical beast with lots of parts, but to not have a full coding support team, competent, experienced people under
the direction of Lyman, to ease his pressure, I dont get.

Yes, I know, every coder has his own nuances, but some standardization to allow others...

So let me ask this, because its been years since Ive coded anything robust.

Those that know....how big is the code? How long should it take for a team of 3-5 people to complete?
Even to give us the full range of controls in settings?

I have only asked my nephew, hes coding in the Aerospace industry, now doing Blue Horizon Propulsion,
and his guess was if his team was doing it would be 60-120 days as a guess to do.

Any thoughts as to why this area isnt functioning up to speed?

This is exactly how I feel. I am involved in a lot of custom programming in different area's and have done a lot of programming myself. Programming something as basic as BM66 is right now at this moment should not take long. I know of some guys who could program something like the GB software in a few weeks tops, provided the video and audio would be delivered to them, and also if they did it single handedly.

Despite what you all might think, it is not very difficult what they are doing with the coding. Just a lot of IF this switch is hit THEN do this and keep track of a whole bunch of variables of what switch has been hit before and what modes are running. The LCD just plays a bunch of clips and for now even just one at a time. Compared to the JJP system which has a screen divided in 4 main area's which all should work at the same time this should be easy to program.

The difficulty lies in the tracking of what is running at which time and there also the bugs come from, but compared to a simple RPG the software of a Pinball machine is quite limited.

edit: just to clarify what I just said: I am not saying there is no deep and difficult programming on any machine, just what they have shown until now with BM66 should be not months of work and in my opinion should be further along now. I cannot imagine that the programmers only started three months ago, that would be very unprofessional.

Lyman is hands down Stern's most valuable employee by a country mile!! I hope they give him a good raise this year

Im too old for a lot of the coding, but early enough, I was taught by the masters, that if one was running a crap load of if/than statements, we moved our code to Fortran....a dead language now to a degree, but compared to other languages
a table based control of if/then statements with timers became super easy, and 1/10 the code.
These are coded today in C++? What causes all the coding issues other than the mile long if/then statements to keep running correctly as new switches are activated?

Something Im most certainly ignorant to.

Yes, I know, just wanted to make it more understandable for everyone. The new way of programming is much faster and way more reliable even, that is why I also do not understand the many bugs in pinball software and why they take ages to be corrected.

I watched the Dead Flip video, enough of it to get an idea... here's my impression:

Sorry, George...but that huge rotating platform, cool and interesting as it is, is an operator's or non-fixer-home-owner's worst nightmare. Holy COW that thing is crazy! The ball lock being on the mech is interesting and novel, but also apparently problematic as there were several times where it just didn't even see that the ball had gone in there. The saucer on the top right was not stopping fast balls from the orbit, LOTS of ramp rejects, and sucker shots everywhere. Hitting the phone or the spinner on the rotating platform nearly every time returned the ball practically STDM...and with what looked like flatter than average flipper set (Like how WWE was...) and a pretty decent flipper gap (Gomez taking after Trudeau?) lots of those balls were unsaveable for a perfectly made shot..

It looks fun to play, but I'm sorry...that huge mech ain't worth 3 grand. Think they did a good job with the LCD, can't judge sounds from the video.

And you passed on an SLE, right?

Maybe Lyman doesn't want to manage people and just likes writing code? And coding for a pinball machine looks non-trivial to me - show some respect.

He's a superb chap though - autographed my Medival Madness

Did any of You get selected and pass on an SLE???

Programming is an art. Lyman is an artist. Some artists are just better than others.

A pinball playfield is a finite physical object. Lyman looks at that and thinks of on fire posibilites. Imagine creating a new version of chess each year. Some people would hair scratch their head and make checkers.

Let's look at Metallica for example. Another programmer might have just made each shot light up an insert until they were all collected. Lyman came up with this (as far as I know) completely unique rule set where shooting a shot "selects" it and then shooting another feature (like Sparky or the Snake) lights the insert on the "selected" shot - and then when all the inserts of a shot are lit, it pulses to let you know you can shoot it to light the captive ball hurry up - and then if you make THAT, that shot becomes "completed". THEN if you complete all those shots, Seek and Destroy starts and then that's got its own cool rules! And that's just ONE thing on that game...there are a ton of crazy fun things to do.

Ok that was probably boring to read - but Lyman's gift is this: he makes games that a newb can play and have tons of fun without understanding Pinall that well...seasoned pinball players can also have fun by discovering really interesting and fun rules.....and super Pros can find crazy nuance and "chess like" strategies. Bottom line - ART that everyone can enjoy...it's more than a box of lights for quarters.

Cool with me. If your campaign has any success here, please jump over to some BMW forums and help us get those prices down too.

Exactly. We have the stradivarius violin, Les Paul or a Ford GT 40. All designed and in the right hands of the player or driver, it becomes a work of art.

Ones i know that sent in a video (5) just to see what happens. They got selected but didn't really want the pin bc of the price and not being a ground up build.

That's right, and I would of gladly paid for it too if there was something to look at and it was an amazing machine to play which I'm sorry to say is not IMO. However, I will say that I bought 3 NIB machines right around the time I put that video in for the BM66 and learned a lot. Getting to know those machines and learning what I like and don't like played a big role in whether or not to pull the trigger on that SLE site unseen. That combined with the opinions of this forum helped educate me a little bit about Stern and the industry in general.
Now all these lesson will play a role in how I choose my 4th pinball machine. I will not get sucked into the hype of these dream themes if this is how they will market new titles going forward. I will just simply look for code completed NIB machines or as close to NIB as possible for the next one for the game room.

Those of you that have spent the money, I hope you enjoy the game.. Let's hope BM66 is complete in a timely manner.. I would hate to see a "Where is the BM66 and my damn KISS code" on this forum a year from now after spending 15K... lol

I know I'm in the minority, but I really liked the last update to KISS. I don't really feel like it needs a lot, but if they did something interesting with the cities they left in then maybe that would push it up to AC/DC level and open up some scoring possibilities to push it up even higher in tournament use. I think it's a viable tournament game as it sits though. I certainly have fun playing it against other people at Nickelrama. /shrug

You are right, KISS is still a fun game to play. I just felt it was important to point out that since it's become a pattern to throw games out there that are not complete even if the incomplete game is playable we as consumers still deserve a premium product if we are going to be expected to pay a premium price. As far as my situation is concerned Stern could not demonstrate to me beyond the hype of the theme that it was worth the $15,000 and now that we have a game play video I feel much better in my decision to stay in the market for that 4th machine and from what I am hearing it appears 2017 might be a good year with some nice options to choose from.

It's cool. Definitely a fun and challenging game to play.

The code issue has been a little overblown here on Pinside. Sure it needs its final polish up but if you listen to some people here, you'd think no lights work and the display is blank.

rd

Oh for sure. I wanted Batman VE to be BDK VE not "rework and upcharge" VE. I don't blame anyone for passing on it, at all. Prices are ridiculous, and now we're seeing just how badly they're having to kludge things to do a rework from an existing layout to get it to be interesting. I'm *SUPER* interested in seeing how that rotating canister thing holds up over time. I hope it does, just because I'd like to see more crazy stuff on pins, not less.

This is the most fascinating thing to me about Kiss. Knowing how vocal people are about code, why on earth would they include something on the DMD like "choose a city" that does nothing? There are no cities on the playfield. Had they left that out, people would think the code is done!!! They should release an update that just removes the city choice ...lol.

Exactly. They should've pulled it with that last release and just said "Well, we had planned to do something with that but it didn't work out to be fun so we removed it." and just been done with it.

seventies you have posted 15 times in this thread first post 51 up votes 7 down but after you regurgitate the same shit for 15 post it gets old stop acting the victim

Jody, chill.

The LE topper is supposed to be different than the SLE topper, right? Has anyone seen the LE topper yet? If it has been shown somehow I missed it.

This is news to me. I thought the SLE and LE toppers were the same. Only the Pre are to have a different topper sold at a later time...right?

Got another hour on the machine today...focused more on shots/ flow as opposed to obvious early code omissions.

Easily the most satisfying session for me yet...both ramps flow well, and fast, but different length, so making combos with them was a lot of fun.

Finally started making sense of how the modes are working ( now)...and color direction / purpose were lots of fun.

Using the crane bash to complete Penguin is super fun.

Rotating table makes for great fun with spinner, batphone , and multi ball tv....got stuck a couple times, but ball save released it early....it then hit me....what better machine to put a rotating, complex " gadget" on than Batman.

Overall, a great hour of play...really got into the layout more, and am still very happy with it.....

LE and SLE toppers supposed to be identical, except SLE will have interactive bat beacon to shine on ceiling, wall, etc.

Being they haven't shipped any of them yet, I'm gonna try to get the SLE topper for my LE. Premium has a different design.

I thought they were the same except for the SLE having the bat signal light.

"Did you ever know that you are my hero?" - Bette Midler

You definitely did us a solid with that outfit. Stay sexy you fierce beast!

Love you DeadFlip

e440573be05a41cc935c7eba95181e85~2 (resized).jpg

That's right, now I remember. Does anyone know if the Bat signal topper mod will be sold separately from Stern?