Lyman is not on Batman '66 code exclusively. Hasn't been for months.

Thanks! Code update got the Villian Escape mode to work!

How do you know this? I heard rumblings, but nothing for sure.

You don't know this as fact. Stop promoting it as such.

He doesn't. He just can't resist blaming Stern for his uninformed decision every chance he gets and making sh*t up.

A> Gomez said he was and he can't tell the truth about Batman '66 to save his life.
B> The (lack of) output. 105 days is PLENTY of time to make a pretty giant update if you're working full-time, uninterrupted on a project.
C> It's pretty widely known he's been working on other projects. What percentage? I dunno, but all it means is Batman'66 is not being worked on full time by him.

One of you guys needs to change your avatar.

IMG_9057 (resized).PNG

I seriously doubt Lyman is working exclusively on B66. But I've got full confidence he'll get it done eventually. Been a long wait, and Stern should really be ashamed, but I like this game too much to sell it early. Sold STLE too early and before it's final update - not this time.

Stern just posted on FB ( referencing code update request for BM66):

" Absolutely stuff coming straight down the pipe. Working really hard, thank you for your patience"

Encouraging....

I get those confused frequently, too, even though it's obvious they're different if I spend a second longer looking at them.

Some more, great responses from Stern just posted:

"Stern Pinball Absolutely everybody wants a timeline, that's the number one question.

Unfortunately we have found when we start speaking in absolutes that inevitably things happen, something comes up, an error is found, some unforeseen reason causes a delay.

Then there's a new problem, the problem that we said something would come at a certain time and then it doesn't. Then people are upset about that as well.

The truth is, and this really is true, we are working as fast as possible to provide quality code updates.

On the other side of the situation it may seem that there are unexplainably long periods of time in between updates, you may wonder why or how, people spend a lot of times online trying to diagnose the exact science of it.

The real truth is, we're working as hard as we can with the resources we have available to provide quality updates as soon as possible. And we can't wait to get them to you guys.
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Mark Girardi
Mark Girardi I truly appreciate the communication, and don't really buy into the hyperbole of why code drops when they do. I just know this Machine in particular ( have quite a few pins), stirs great excitement and true, genuine passion. I sincerely want this to be something special.....to me, it's a defining moment for Stern ...I'm onboard and anxious.....approximate targeted release would be a reasonable request, I believe...REALLY APPRECIATE the communication......mark"

Also heard same in that seems like Lyman is working on Elvira 3 as well.

Do any of the Stern programmers work full time on one game? I doubt it really.

I doubt it, but they should be full time until the Alpha code is done.

I think Lyman also does the underlying system and OS work so if any of the new machines need that I think he does it. I think he will be working on new stuff, it wouldn't surprise me but I am confident we are going to get a whopper of an update - at the moment i'm ok to wait but its getting close to the end for me and by the sounds many of you. I think Stern in the end do look after us though.

I can't upvote MK6's post because it's just hogwash. While it'd be awesome to know the exact day and time, most of us are reasonable and understand that's not how it usually works. That isn't a reason to give zero updates on progress.

"Hey we're still working on it. We really have no idea where the end could be. Think months, not days. We have to finish it, do a code review and then put it through QA and play testing."
"Hey we think it should hit QA in the next 30 days; this release is so large that QA could take another 45+."
"Good news, it's actually in QA now. Next, play testing!"
"Play testing is going well. We expect you to have this in the next 30-45 days if things go according to plan."

Absolute dates and total silence are not the only options.

Not being a fanboy at all....just the most information they've been willing to interact with up until now....anything is better than what we have gotten to this point, communication wise, so I view it as progress.

Pretty convinced a major drop is close, or they wouldnt have responded....

As an SLE owner, I have one simple question. Assuming the SLE brought in pure profit of $5k/machine, that would equate to $400k into the Stern coffers. What happened to the $400k? This was not invested back into the company to help add "resources"? Again, I wish Stern the best and appreciate all they do for the hobby. However, statements like these (see above) suggest Stern has much bigger issues. Hopefully, these statements are true and code will arrive shortly as BM66 is an absolutely fantastic looking machine.

In all likelihood, Expo is THE drop dead date for this major code update. If they don't have a code release by Expo, I hope those who can attend, give them some MAJOR SHIT as they very much deserve it for such a terrible release / rollout.

On the brighter side, Expo starts Oct 12th so we have just over 1 month remaining of wait "hopefully"

MK6PIN I know you're not being a fanboy. My comments were directly at the message from Stern and were not directed at you at all. I apologize if I wasn't clear. Hell, I was the biggest B66 fanboy for the first few of months. I had faith, they'll do what they said etc. Count me among the burned and jaded now.

Yea, where did all that pure off the top profit go?
Is the hold up code? Is it creating the content or massaging existing and making it look right for the display? Whichever the holds up are attributed to, they need another additional team hired for it. Their release schedule of 3 + 1 with current staffing is beyond inadequate.

I would love a code drop by Expo. However, if the code is still buggy or not finished then they shouldn't release it just because Expo is going on.

If they dont release by Expo a lot of us will be disappointed but I dont think Stern is too worried about us making a "big stink" about it at the show.

If its not released by Expo I would imagine someone at the Stern presentation would ask where the BM66 code is. Gary or George will give the same thing they've already said many times: "We are hard at work on new code, it has new exciting features and modes, we are committed to finishing the game and it will be coming out soon".

Then they will show the next shiny new game (Guardians of the Galaxy?) And everyone will forget about Batman66 and jump over each other to order the new game.

Sad and depressing truths.......

I do not doubt this to be true and that they are working hard on code with the resources that they have. It is painfully obvious that not enough resources at stern are being spent on code updates. Not sure how stern doesn't come to this realization other then it's just not a huge priority for them. Games with great code continue to sell for years. Ones without do not. Seems like it would be good for business to do a better job on code.

I want a BM66 premium. Get the code were it needs to be and you will get my money, otherwise it's staying safe in my account.

Yup, think there might be code update before Expo and not just BM66.

Huge one for BM66 and minor updates on other games.

I added GB to your comment so this response makes a little more sense.

The new shiny game amnesia was certainly true a couple of releases ago but I think we saw a change with SW, a lot of people dropped out of LEs because the value and features where not there over the premium, a lot dropped out due to ghosting being a normal expectation to some degree now and I know BM66 played a good part in myself and a few others in this thread dropping out of SW, if Sterns current behaviour/treatment of customers can loose them sales on one of the biggest licences in history there is proof there is a change starting/coming.

It's been more than a year since I dropped my deposit on BM66 and I still consider the code alpha at this point (a good alpha to be fair) due to so many features not active yet. I can no longer grant Stern any good will at all. I don't trust anything they say. We've fought shorter wars than the supposed BM66 dedicated code time. At Expo we'll see a third game announcement since BM66. WTF?

BM66LE is a beautiful game. However its just sitting here waiting for Lyman's special treatment!

Frustrating.......

5k? Are you serious?

More like 10k.

Seriously ... normal Pro "wholesale" is 4500-4700. And they make a profit out of that. BM66 Premium has no more in it than Aerosmith Pro or TWD Pro does, and those Pros are $4500-4700 wholesale.

With BM66 SLE - how much more did 2 translites and some fancy rails and some fancy cab decals cost at wholesale? $200 all up? Sounds fair ... $20 per translite, +$100 extra for the custom rails with powder (remember the cost of the standard ones is deducted) and $50 more for the fancy decals. Oh yeah, some signed cards, another $20 per unit.

And they sold them direct ... no Distributor margin.

Don't kid yourselves ... 80 SLE pins = a whole lot of profit.

Genius marketing by Stern.

rd

We all know it was a heck of a lot more than $5k. My point was what did Stern do we all that profit? They give us the sob story about doing the best they can with the resources they have at hand. However, they rake in huge profits and do nothing to address their coding issues.

btw...you forgot the matchbox cars. Those were at least another $20.

Oh yeah!

Funny story ... My buddy in LA was going to buy a B66 premium, and he wanted the same Bat cars as the SLE, so he went to Walmart and got the whole lot for like $2.99 per each.

Actually, come to think of it, he didn't end up buying a machine in the end ... I'll ask him if I can buy them off them and stick em in my premium. Hot glue gun for the win!!

rd

didn't realize Aero Pro or TWD Pro had mechs like this hidden somewhere inside

Screen Shot 2017-01-04 at 1.19.43 PM (resized).png

I was about to post something very similar. I agree that BM66 is overpriced but at the same time the BOM on it is definitely higher than a recent Stern pro.

The crane mech was streamlined a bit from BDK to BM66 but its still quite a complicated mechanism. Also the rotisserie has a lot going on with it as well with the physical ball lock, batcomputers, mini LCD, batmobile spinning platform, atomic pile, batphone toy and targets. Also throw in the center playfield magnet and custom callouts by Adam and Burt (not cheap), cpntrolled diverter gate, spinner, lock down bar gadget button, playfield slide supports, steel ramps and wireforms, VUK, main LCD, 20 standup targets. Plus don't forget Joe Kaminkows piece of the profit pie for the BM66 license. No way this is same cost as a regular pro model game.

Its kinda like people originally saying TNA should be a cheap game to build. Once you look under the playfield and see all thats there you realize its not as simple electrically or mechanically as it looks at first glance.

Saying BM66 is same manuf cost as aero pro or TWD pro is just incorrect.

Excellent post Doc! Puts it in perspective when you see the list of stuff going on in BM66.

Not to mention that BOM is only a fraction of the true, weighted cost of any of these machines. Suggesting a 10k net profit on a BM66SLE is just insane.......

All about margins...Sterns overhead (including the people that actually hand assemble these things) is quite substantial, I would believe.

I think if there was a 20% NET profit per any machine sold, they would be sitting on gold bricks...personally, I doubt it's that much.

Hence the need to keep the gears grinding.......

Okay, if Batman '66 premium is $8k retail, then give $700 to the distributor, that's $7300. Giving Stern 20% GROSS profit puts their cost at $5840. Assuming Batman'66 topper and the few upgrades over the premium are worth $500 COST (again very generous estimate to Stern side), that's about $9k profit in each of those SLEs, which is over $700k profit. The only thing this doesn't really account for is if the KaPow cut is a percentage or a flat rate. Overhead, etc are already baked in from the LEs and Premiums that were on the line. Bottom line, there was a LOT of profit in those SLEs, and Stern still screwed up handling it so the well is poisoned for any future ones.

I hate to defend Stern here, as I'm in a very foul mood about the lack of code progress of my BM66 right now, but I think that when everyone reverse engineers Stern's financials there's just too much non-component info to really know how they're doing.

I suspect that internally, they consider the upcost of the LE models to cover the large development costs of the game. I read long ago that Gary has said it takes about one million to develop a new game. I also think LEs and premiums kind of subsidize the pros in that regard which keeps that model viable. Spare parts stock for new games and new systems, etc., are upfront costs, though they eventually get their pound of flesh from us on them.

Stern is probably doing very, very well right now compared to 10 years ago, but if they're making such huge profits and their BOMs are so low, I wonder why everyone else has found it so difficult to legitimately compete against them.

Starting the engine from scratch is hard. Once it's running, expanding or making changes is easier. That initial bump is the moat that keeps most competitors at bay. It's no coincidence that JJP and AP both have billionaires behind them.

No way am I defending the $15k on the SLE over the $8k on the premium....my only point was NET profit (which would include the "baked in" overhead you refer to) per machine is much lower than what some might imply (imho).

Example - I would venture to say that Jack actually LOST $$$ on WOZ for quite some time, until the sales #'s exceeded a certain point, allowing him a return on investment.

My only point being...if there was that much NET profit in these machines (as a whole, not an inflated one-off) it wouldn't be so hard for new companies to get off the ground. I suspect total labor (including design, engineering, programming, and building) cost substantially more than the BOM, actually.....these are still hand assembled machines.....

^^^

In answer to the replies to my post, as you probably know I am one of the few pinsiders who won't get into an argument on anything. But I stand by my comment that B66 SLE wouldn't cost substantially more than say TWD pro or AS Pro to build. A few hundred difference. Not thousands.

This comes from my background of running manufacturing factories, understanding economies of scale, and understanding also how marketing works through running my furniture store chain.

Also a note: my own B66 Premium arrives here in a few weeks. I like the game enough to buy one. My first new Stern since Metallica.

There IS the profit there... at least on paper. That's why so many companies have started in the last few years. It's not rocket science to work out what a machine costs to build.

Where these new companies have failed is they didn't understand that Stern are a well oiled machine. Theyve been running for 30+ years, and they fire out 50 machines a day blindfolded. When Andrew Heighway said they were going to make as many machines as Stern straight out of the box, that's when I knew he had no idea what it would take to do that.

JJPs initial problems were the same. They couldn't make the machines fast enough to fill the orders. No production = no sales = no money for wages, parts, rent, etc etc. By all accounts, they were a lot closer to folding than most of you realise.

Spooky has done it exactly the way I would have done it (if I was silly enough to do it!!) Under promise and over deliver. Keep it small. Grow organically. Work 100 hours a week to make it happen. Charlie and family get all my kudos for making it happen with the minimum of BS.

All good.

rd

Looking for opinions...

I just finished powdercoat on my machine, it's a premium. Went with a black metallic with a slightly smaller metallic flake than the LEs shipped with. Did all the normal armor components plus the coin door, speaker panel and shooter housing. I'm having airbrushed pinstriping done next week. Going to do a red outer edge similar to the SLE and doing the bat insignia near the button on the lockbar in a custom painted bat logo to match th machine. Wanted to get away from the decals...

Anyways was thinking about doing some different things with the striping. There's lots of colors in the premium art and not as much focus on the bat mobile. Looking for opinions on using two colors for striping? Was thinking about adding some purple but welcome other ideas.

If your pinstripe guy is also a good freehand artist, the fighting text "POW" "WHACK" "BIFF" would look pretty cool on the armour.

Or the villains catchphrases, but in phonic style writing - jokers laugh "hahaaahaa, penguins qwack qwack qwack, riddlers giggle, catwomans meow etc etc

As far as how much profit Stern is making on these games, one must remember that they recently moved in to a new much larger facility than they were in before and that surely wasn't a cheap move. And the bills to operate there are certainly going to be higher than where they were before.

It's no wonder they would charge as much as they can for games as long as people buy them to cover the higher overhead and the want to still make more profit.

I personally don't get why the concern over how much profit Stern makes. It's a free market and these are toys. This isn't cancer medicine sold to dying people who need it. It's either "worth it" to you, or it isn't. You either have the money to buy it or you don't. Last I checked, these games were still available in the public to play for around a buck.

I'm not complaining about cost or profit, just thought Stern could spend a little more on coders.

At one time they were called commercial coin operated machines with the intent of making money for the buyers of them. And in a few places they still are.

Not only the building, but a substantial # of employees, when I was there. I laugh when people think there is huge margin in these games ( meaning "net profit" that Stern actually makes). Suspect one of the major reasons they pump out so many games is not because they can, but rather because they have to.

And if they are not in business to make/ realize a profit, they will close. Amazing the economic experts on here....I'll be very, very happy when Code drops on this machine ( and this thread) so we can have better things to talk about.

Anyone in this club in or near Marco Specialities in South Carolina?

Amen to that!

You don't have to be an economic expert.

Pro - they make a profit on it. They wholesale it for $4500, and they do not sell it for a loss. $4500 covers everything, parts, labour, design, licence. THEY MAKE A PROFIT out of the $4500. These machines are the cornerstone of the business.

Premium - they add a few things - they make more profit percentage.

LE - they add a couple more things - make even more profit percentage.

SLE - they add a couple more things - they make a shit load of profit.

Pretty basic economics. I could bore you with hundreds of examples in the furniture industry, but you'd be looking like Hans Solo in the carbonite after 2 minutes of that.

And good on Stern! They are a company, and any companies aim is to make as much money as possible. Making way more money per unit is everyone's goal, and the LE/SLE model certainly achieves that goal, exactly as they designed it to do.

After 30 years in this tough industry, Gary deserves all the money he can get.

rd

Agreed, and wasn't referring to you or anyone in particular w my comments..( I enjoy a lot of yours actually). My point is that some on here genuinely believe that wholesaler $4500.00 pin has $2500 in net profit in Gary's pockets. No way...

Did the $15k SLE's ( all 80 of them) net Stern more profit than the premiums?....Without a doubt.

Did it cover his payroll for the month or clear his debt service? Highly doubt it...

That was my only point.....Is my Jager too expensive? Absolutely

Am I going to keep drinking it?.....yep......

I added spotlights to the sling tops a while ago. Recently I've been trying to find the brightest bulbs I can to help brighten up the playfield. I added Comets Op-Max. They seemed better than what I was using but I still wasn't 100% satisfied. On a whim I decided to take off the diffused lens and holy crap what a difference! The light reaches all the way to the back of the playfield. Not sure if the Comet 1 Watt is brighter but I'm more than happy with the results. With the lens off they are very low profile so you don't see them from a player's perspective. You can see in the video how far the light reaches. The crane, Villain Vision and even the back left building are being lit. It might look too bright by the spots but that's just over exposure from my phone. Just wanted to share my results for anyone dealing with the same issue.