Hey - you're going to get new code before any of us unless doc brought a USB stick to Expo.

Yeah this thread should talk about code exclusivy 100% of the time just.like Lyman

Did anyone attend the Franchi and Freres session?
Was it recorded or streamed? The one bright spot for us is art.

I’ll post the day I get it......

Too funny.....just left the powdercoat shop ( got my coindoor, shooter housing redone)....they nailed it!!!

I’ll post pics tomorrow night when I reassemble w the chrome coin doors, slots....this will look really good!!!

( and PM’ing Matt tonight, btw....)

Pinball News had a very brief blurb about it. Sounds like it was them recounting the story of how Freres recruited Franchi. No mention of any new game.

Wow. Does anyone believe Lyman is 100 percent on BM66?

I cannot believe it. Supposedly Elvira will be close to done or finished in a few months and Lyman is coding. Just cannot believe it.

Plus the code update doesn't seem great. Seems fair at best.

I kind of figured he was on a long over due vacation.

But remember him and Gomez both want it to be good, because they are both going to buy it for their own personal collections.

If he is, then something is seriously wrong. It's not like Lyman is some junior programmer learning his craft. He is arguably the best programmer Stern has.

If George says Lymsn is working on nothing else, I want to believe that's the case. But the comments last night on why the code is where it is simply didn't make sense. I'd need to hear a lot more detail on what has happened from May to October for me to give George the benefit of the doubt.

We will all know plenty enough when the next game is released that has Lyman coding it.

They signed the freakin playfield.....it’s gonna be great, and we’re gonna be pissed until it’s finished, then elated when Lyman drops the bomb code....is what it is

This is pretty much the only thing that gives me hope we have any chance of seeing the game we all think it can be.

Exactly....neither wants a legacy failure with their name on it. Truly convinced ( especially now) that this game has been a bitch to code, and they are going to be very, very picky with how the code is laid out. While excruciating, these are all signs that it will stand alone at some point, in its own way.

No way this gets abandoned...no freakin way.....

No way, doesn't pass the smell test! Actually smells like a big steaming pile of turd if you ask me.

Like Mark and others, I refuse to believe they would even consider abandoning BM66. I still believe it will be great eventually.

We bought it, we are stuck with it so why not make the best of it!

.80 code tells me Lyman has been working on every other title and a little bit on BM66.

Remember, its all about keeping the line moving and BM66 ain't gonna get that done.

Does anybody really believe Gomez and Lyman are going to (as in the future) buy Batman66?

Why not? Probably pay less than we did, of course....

Why is that hard to believe? Lyman told me that himself.

John Borg sent me photos once of his collection of his pinballs he owns.

Everyone who works there is a pinhead. We know this.

I just assumed if you were part of the design team or running the company, you already owned one. Care of the company you are working for.

Indeed we will and then the truth will set us free! Gomez is peddling a whole dump truck load of B/S. Since BM66 was announced we've had AS & SW announced, and probably next month GotG. Lyman's next game has to be just over the horizon. If he can't get BM66 past Alpha code in about a year, how can he code another game equal to or more than that in only a few months? That's why I'm CGC's new best damn NIB customer. Go Doug! F@&k Gomez!

I don't know what they pay, obviously its a factory price. I never expected they'd get freebies. McDonald's employees get food for half price, not free .

I understand that.

I guess if both Lyman and Gomez want to wait to see if it turns out any good before they bring it into their homes, they are a little smarter than the rest of us knuckleheads.

At expo last year, Gary seemed indifferent to the title, but Gomez and Lyman really seemed to show passion for this one. I get “ keeping the machine rolling” , and their overhead has to be a bitch, but doesn’t preclude them from latching onto something and wanting it right, regardless of the shit they get for overpromising underdelivering a year later.

Aerosmith...a no brainer, music pin filled w animations....Star Wars was going to sell regardless. BM was sold as a boutique, and they are going to make it one. This machine just has an appeal and recognition , that none of these others, even POTC, possess. It’s Batman, in the theme and version that is recognized by everyone. Don’t write this one off ( or do, whatever).

I believe they WANT it to be great. They WANT it to be epic! This show just laid bare that they don't know how to accomplish their own goals.

You forgot "They WANT to WANT to own it"

It showed this was going to be tougher than anticipated, and they were massively unprepared, beyond apologies ( which I chose to believe were sincere).

Lot of heat on this from day one, and only got hotter this weekend. How the respond will dictate a lot. They have the horsepower...time to deploy....

I, for one, will be looking forward to TPF more than ever now....all the heavy hitters should be coded and ready....

Why would he launch it as the 30th yr anniversary pin? Just a $$$ grab for him?

I think you're on to something. Maybe Gary has finally lost it. Their entire Expo pitch seemed to be a bit irrational. Barcades marketing strategy over home owners, really? Clumsy BM66 code update to Expo but not to owners. No new game announcement (largely supposedly due to too much inventory of BM66 and SWLE at distributors)! Letting JJP pull their pants down at Expo......

The other thing to consider is at half price if that is the deal they get, why are Lyman and Gomez still hesitating to buy it?

Yep...didn’t it tie into some 50th anniversary BM thing too? All the pieces and stars were lined up. They chose to meet the timeline, grab the cash, and underestimated what it was going to take. No excuse is valid a year later. Especially with no communication in between. Damn glad they did though, with untimely passing of Adam. Part of the “it” factor I was talking about.

They just need to give Lyman whatever is needed ( assistant, whatever), and finish this. We’ve already modded the hell out of it, redesigned the correct ramp...everything...screw if they WANT one, we HAVE one. Show us some form of decency..communicate and finish.....yesterday.

I'm hoping the release that they said is coming soon is at least 0.80. Someone who saw one of the expo games boot up earlier today said the version was 76.1. Later this afternoon someone did a code update on the game and I saw the version after that was 76.2.

The Stern-o-rama party has 5 star wars games and a variety of a dozen or so older pinball and video games but no Batman66 here.

I can't go into specifics, but I do spend a bit of time each week or two with a couple of the Stern coders due to other mutual activities we are involved in. Some of you already suspect this based on the emails I got after a previous few posts. I try very hard to stay away from asking any specifics about games out of courtesy to them, as they are prohibited from saying much, and I do not want to put anyone into an uncomfortable position. But, in a general conversation, we have talked in great length about the length of time it takes to code a game, and the steps they have to go through. Again, I cannot go into specifics, but there are a few things to take into consideration when making the kind of assumptions outlined above.

SPIKE is a newer system for the folks at Stern, and on top of that, they added a completely new engine to run all of the video for the LCD. The programmers are still learning the new system, and it takes a lot of time to code to something you have not seen before. There is a lot of trial and error, and they make mistakes and refinements along the way. With both BM66 and SW, there is a lot of video and audio to work with, and I am told the number of lines of code to run pins like SW and BM66 is over 10 times the number of lines that exist in the older DMD games. In fact, I know the code was taking up enough room that they had to start being selective on what video and audio was included in the initial load. I also know for a fact (because I have been there) that a lot of the engineering and code staff work a lot of very long days and short nights to get this code and these games out the door. Lyman is not working on Elvira...there may be some others that are, but he is not yet. His sole focus is BM66. Again, I try very hard to stay away from trying to garner some inside knowledge...I don't want to take advantage of the relationship, but it kills me when people think they know a fact, simply based on their own opinion. Gomez screwed up with his remark and he has publicly stated he would love to have it back. But that doesn't brand him a liar, and he has also said time and time again that Lyman was solely focused on BM66, yet people still choose to believe what they decide to be the truth based on no real fact.

Yes this all sucks, and yes I was led to believe earlier that code was going to come more often, but no one intentionally lied. It was a simple case of someone at the top changing their mind and making the decision to take this out to a more developed code before a release goes out. I want the code as bad as the next guy, but making assumptions is not going to get it to us any quicker. I am sure it will be great when it is finished, and we need to keep in mind the long hours these guys put in. All you need to do is spend 20 minutes talking to guys like Gomez, Dwight, Steve Ritchie, etc, and you see their eyes light up and they ooze passion for everything pinball. They are a very good bunch of folks that take pride in what they love to do, and it shows. Don't blame them all for decisions made by a management team. None of them want a legacy of bad games with unfinished code. I probably said more than I should have, but I see these guys all of the time in their offices at 10pm and beyond without an exaggeration.

In the Stern panel (at about 33:40), Gomez said "We will do a release probably this coming week, and that new build is on the floor [at Expo]. It should be on every game except the tournament games...the release is probably going to be labeled .8..."

So it's taken 141 days to get from 0.75 to 0.76.2 (what's ACTUALLY on the machines on the floor), but we'll get from 0.76.2 to 0.80 in less than 7 days when it's on Stern's site. Interesting. It would be nice to have 0.76.2 to compare to what they release as 0.80. I bet they're the same or almost the same.

It was hilarious in the panel at 39:30 when Gary was freestyling and saying "What more universal title than Star Wars, it is the title of all titles...put a little Williams music on/in it...y'know could have an empty box...(catches the irony, little flustered sound)...but it's NOT! Steve did a lot of game with it....(mumbles and moves on).

You continue to be obsessed with version numbers and time between releases which are both meaningless.

I want to hear the story of why Batman code is where it is - what specific challenges Lyman has encountered and what's being done to resolve them, details on what he wants to see in the game and, armed with the knowledge and experience gained with the new platform this year, an educated guess on what that's going to take moving forward.

But you were dead on about Gary catching himself on the Star Wars comment.

I'm sure this is all true, but we should have heard the details from George. Or, if Stern was proactive, directly from Lyman. They certainly had to know the state of Batman code was a concern.

As it was, George effectively threw Lyman under the bus without explaining how your best programmer spends a year full time and there's nothing new to share publicly than 5 month old alpha code. It might make sense if we knew the details and challenges, but without those all we have are empty promises bad continuing frustration.

I know Lyman is passionate about pinball and Batman 66 in particular. If Stern is to regain any credibility on Batman, they need to let him explain things to us in his own words.

I take is that they've completely binned the code we are running and have started again. The .8 was probably done 6 months ago but Lyman said, nah, we need to rethink this completely...

I just can't see any other explanation as to how little has been done if Lyman is truly working on this 100%

Was thinking the same thing with the way Gomez was speaking. I'm guessing The turntable provides a lot of challenges. The 4 main elements of the game (ball lock, bat cave and bat phone and villain vision) that can't be active all at the same time. And once you go down a rule path, you're locked in to that structure. To change it, requires a complete change in the game.

Villain vision for example, can't be active when battling a villain because that's when the batcave/spinner is facing. And ball locks can't be active when villain vision or batphone is facing.

What is clear from outside looking in, is that Stern need to expand their coding team.

But, maybe management sees the production line running at full capacity and therefore expanding the coding team is just an unnecessary expense?

This kind of thinking works in the short term but there is enough competition now to suggest this is a poor medium to long term strategy.

Maybe Gary needs to stay behind everyday and repeat the following:

IMG_5976 (resized).JPG

My problem is we didn't get details. I have heard from several who know Lyman who say he is not on BM66 full time. I have no idea though as its not directly from Lyman.

The solution is to let Lyman talk about it and put this rumors to rest. Tell us why it is taking so long.

I have no doubt that they are good people that work hard. I have huge amounts of doubt that Lyman is working solely on BM66 and Gomez being vague gives me even more doubt. If what you say is true about new games taking 10 times longer to code then stern should be saying that and introducing us to the new team members that are going to help keep new code rolling out.

If it takes 10 times more work then we can just forget about sterns commitment to code as future games will never get much in the way of updates.

When you start summing up some of the pieces of why BM66 is where it is at - 1) Bad turntable design 2) bad choice of inserts 3) Lyman not working on the game full-time or not enough support programmers 4) new Spike system 5) bad management decisions 6) playfield design team not in sync with the programming team at initial design 7) too many video clips to integrate into the game 8.) Scraping code so late in development.

Even if only a few of these are true it still makes you wonder if Batman can really be saved.

I bet they both end up buying a JJP Pirates instead!

Never gonna happen

If so, why release code now if it's already obsolete and you are starting over? That doesn't make sense.

None of it makes sense and the new update is disappointing from reviews. I cannot believe Stern can or will absorb the cost to continue with Lyman full time. The overhead is crazy.

I am not in the factory, but believe Lyman has not been full time on this. Running my own business and common sense say this is not how it's done.

No doubt we will get code, but it will be awhile and on Lyman's time.

Guardians of the Galaxy info will be announce in two weeks in reaction to JJP. The game is finished and is Borgs not Trudeau. Trudeau was working on something else that was finished, but Borg is redesigning.

If I were Stern I would have announced the next couple of titles in development. This would combat all current buying choices by allowing people to save money if they love a theme.

Otherwise, we are buying POTC, Houdini, Alien, AFMR, MMR, Thunderbird's, TNA, and Alice Cooper. Possibly buying TBL as well.

That's money going elsewhere and is only good for their competition. It just does not make sense.

If I know Stern is doing GOTG, Iron Maiden, Elvira, and Deadpool, maybe I do not buy something else. In summary the market has only so much money. Stern is letting more get away by these consistently stupid practices with code, announcements and attitude. Gary could not be further from the truth talking about barcades. Somehow they do not want to acknowledge the home market. It's so very strange.

They want to keep lines running, but the actions taken will prevent that from happening. Box of lights anyone?

I really appreciate this comment. It is not a far stretch to believe this game has been a struggle to code w new system, screen, amount of video material, and high expectations.

I truly dont believe they lied at expo ( sort of always puts Gary's comments in context, as he doesnt seem in touch with alot of this).

They were obviously shaken at expo, knowing this type of backlash would occur. Gomez apologized for an errant statement, he expressed that Lyman is full time on BM66, and they wanted it to be a great pin, with coding being much more complex than anticipated. I believe him on all counts.

Will be anxious to see where it goes from here. Communication is key, but generally people dont like to hear bad or delayed news

Is what it is at this point, and stand by my previous comments that they cant, and wont abandon this title....Batman told me...

Thanks for the info Manimal, I agree that they all seem like really good guys doing their best. I'm just not gonna believe though that Lyman has been dedicated to BM66 since last expo, that would be a terrible business move on Stern's part. I guess we will see when coding credits come out on future games.

This is ALL Stern's OWN DOING! I can feel sorry for the individuals BUT as nice as George is he's running daily operations at Stern now. He, Gary and the rest of the beancounters bear the responsibility.

You guys remember last year at Expo when we all wanted to see the BM66 reveal and play it and Lyman wouldn't let it happen because the state of the code was in terrible shape, he's a proud coder, yet it got shoved out there anyhow.

STERN made this ALL about a freaking $$$$$ grab. As much as i love my BM66, it is what it is.

Let's NOT FORGET, Stern went as follows on PRICING:

GBLE $8,000
BM66LE $10,000
BM66SLE $15,000
ASLE $8,300
SWLE $8,500

It's THEIR business, with all due respect, I don't really want to hear F ing EXCUSES (again, not the employees fault)! As a business owner myself i find it hard to believe what the F i'm hearing!!! Management doesn't respect their CUSTOMERS and worse, take us for granted, it's pretty F ing clear.

If I sell my services for X and then tell my clients, sorry guys, these legal, tax and financial issues are really complicated with the new laws and products, bear with me, I'll eventually deliver what i promise, MAYBE.

What a GOOD business does is WHATEVER IT TAKES to implement the system they put in place, SPIKE, get their shit together and get it done!

What I'm hearing is that the owners and management DON'T and WON'T put the CUSTOMER FIRST. See above pricing and then following results.

That's the bottom line, period end of story.

The presentation they gave was PATHETIC. They should have come out and addressed every single issue up front. We the CUSTOMER, shouldn't have to ask the questions! One guy asked a BM66 question, very respectfully i might add, yet so many more needed to be asked and answered.

On the other hand, you had JJ and the multi millionaire investor himself, Abess, standing up on the stage putting WE the CUSTOMER FIRST, in their own words (yes i understand all the differences and you know i've been very critical of JJP) and so far they are delivering.

I've been probably the most vocal Stern defender and JJP critic over the last year.

After this Expo and digesting what has happened over the past year and the contrast between the two presentations, I'm simply tired of all of the EXCUSES from management (again no offense to the great individuals that work there)

You heard JJP talk about delivering the quality and code that WE want. You see that in how Keith and crew are getting it done.

You heard Gomez talk about "making a pass" on this game or that game. Sorry, the VIBE is totally different folks.

Bottom line, i love my Stern pins HOWEVER, the pricing above, continuos excuses and delays, attitudes toward the customer, etc. mean no more NIB for me.

Yeah i know, they don't really care. It's what they do, take us for GRANTED. Sadly, we as a community, and the BM66 group is the greatest example, great people, great mods and ideas, have much more PASSION about their products than management seems to have.

Back to BM66, looking forward to greatness!

Bingo, Iceman.

I’ve learned my lesson which companies cater to my interests as a home consumer.

Announcing future titles would have done Stern no good with me. A year ago I would have ordered Elvira almost sight unseen. Also very interested in GOTG. Now I won't even consider either until I see code. That probably means I miss out on an LE. I'm not buying another box of pretty lights at launch game.

I'm no longer going to consider either game unless Stern delivers what they promised on Batman 66. If I were a betting man, I would say that probably means Batman will be my last Stern game.

Stern needs to stop promising and start delivering. It's that simple. Batman is Stern's most expensive game ever. If it becomes the most expensive flop ever I'm certainly not going to trust them enough to take a similar risk again with my pinball money.

I work a lot with programmers and saying that the amount of work on the new games is 10x more they are doing something very very wrong. Every programmer I know says that programming has gotten quicker because of the use of libraries and such. I do not know the technical terms, but if Stern has designed Spike and the programming takes so much more work, they have made a ginormous mistake with that.

My thoughts are that Stern wants to exchange the world under glass for a world on the screen. The programmers have to program much more of a videogame than a pinball machine and that is quite different.

Also the fact that SW does get quicker updates and Dwight seems not to have the big delays that Lyman does could mean two things: Dwight is better with the new system OR Lyman does not get as much time for making the updates. My guess is the latter.

As much as I respect the faith that Manimal has for the programmers, the fact that they are not allowed to say anything, even to people they work with, has got me wondering.