Quoted from CrazyLevi:
Neither would I.
But they put out one game every 4 years.
I am told they will be announcing their next game at expo.
Quoted from TomGWI:
I think the goal is to cause hysteria. They are only making 274 LE and 30 of those are super limited. I think they are copy-cating Spooky RZ 50 LEs & 250 Regular. Only difference is you can buy a premium.
The LE luster seems to fade when the next game comes out. I'm honestly avoiding LEs and only focusing on pros and premiums at this point.
I don't know if Hysteria is the word, but they are trying to generate an artificial shortage and feeling of desperation among folks they know are all tying to "one-up" everyone else by getting the best and baddest toy out there, no matter what the cost. They are no dummies, they announce the game strategically to get everyone to forget the playfield debacle for a while....at least through expo. They alter the lineup to Prem-LE-SLE so they can jack up the prices, without people running down the street with their hair on fire. LE's will sell out fast, and they will smile all of the way to the bank, and we have been de-sensitized to another pricing hike, so we will swallow the price of the next mega-pin as "normal". The sad part is we all know this, yet we still line up at the trough like the lambs that we are, because someone else will get something we don't have. For everyone (myself included) who has said Stern has no idea what they are doing......they know EXACTLY what they are doing. Create an artificial demand.....an absolute need, and then rake in the dough from all of us. Doesn't matter is the artwork is crappy, if the clearcoat chips, or if the toys are re-hashed from an older game....so long as we line up with wads of money, they will take every cent we are willing to throw their way. Gary thanks you for your support each time he heads out on his boat and lights up that cigar.
Quoted from Rarehero:
ROTFL!!!!! Stern will never go CHEAPER! Never!!!! Especially on a game with super limited numbers. Collectors will pay stupid money if something is stupid rare. MSRP on this game will prob be $9795.
Agree...there will be some super-secret-squirrel pricing on those SLE's......just watch. With the LCD's added, they are going to be jacked up, which is why they did away with the Pro. They could not call it a Pro and charge what they need to charge. I really want to see the playfield....given they say they are keeping the crane, I really hope this isn't a re-hash of an old layout with a few new toys and some updated artwork. But given they had to engineer the LCD, I'm betting the rest of the pin didn't get a whole lot of attention, and there is only so much you can do with that crane and the real estate it consumes.........
Quoted from hawkmoon:
HA HHAA MY FRIENDS!! Just this minute,i talked with my rep.Eric,at Gameroomguys! People,i just Cancelled my GB/PRe,and JUST BOUGHT a Batman 66.LE!!! WOHOOO! Ghostbusters was a test pin for the Spike system,developed for THIS PIN!! Eric told me we have never seen anything like this before,AND I"M IN!!BATMAN66 Club,here we are!! Eric ALSO told me that tha SLE's are only given to Gary Sterns personal friends for sale! Eric has 1LE left,delivery,late November,Christmas for the PRe'sOH,by the way October for the GB/PRes I finally got the goody first!!
Yes, but let's not forget the part where Eric also said they don't have final pricing yet, but their projected sales figure is going to be somewhere from 8500 to 9K Or a bit more on the LE.....Prem's around 7300 to 7400. I said, thanks but no thanks........I like Batman, but not that well. But hey, you get free admission to the Epic Party, and they are promising to use "Bat Clear" on this model, which when chipped will leave a cool texted sound effect such as "biff", "Pow", or "Sucker"......
Quoted from Ballsofsteel:
these prices are such a sad trend, i am done with stern probably at this point. i really wanted the new star wars pin too, maybe i can sell my entire collection to buy it before they release photos.
cough. clears throat.
We don't even know what the price is at this point....just a lot of guessing. As well the distributors are also being told this is only for the anniversary model, and will revert back to the old way on the next model.
Quoted from rai:
My concern is that this is more of a warmed over TDK pin. If it was all new they would not have worded the announcement as they did, they said designed by Gomez and coded by Lyman as was TDK, the crane stays so that's another clue that this is a refresh.
I can't say that's bad, but as TDK is never thought of as one of the best pins out, that only leads me to think this will be like lipstick on a pig.
Very valid concern, and you may be correct.....but don't forget the 2 LCD's, and the fact Gary is trying to make this some kind of special show piece for the 30th anniversary. Hopefully that doesn't mean a re-fresh of TDK or maybe a VE of the TDK. Whatever it looks like, there will still be folks in line ready to hand over wads of cash...............
Quoted from Pimp77:
I like the game too. It has two of the worst toys of all time (3 if you count path of the dead part two), but it also has one of the best toys of all time: the crane! Still unsure how it fits into TDK theme-wise, but nobody cares because it's awesome!
How did the crane work?
Quoted from erak:
Not sure if this has been mentioned as I just skimmed through this thread after coming back from holidays.
But I guess Stern is now trying to charge premium prices for a pro.
Because there are Batman 66 premiums being made (rebranded pro to make more $)
250 LE's (or is it really 250 premiums)
And 30 super LE's (30 actual LE's)
Remember X-Men only had a limited # of LEs
250 Magneto's and 300 wolverine
So was one a LE and the other a Super LE?
I really want this pin if it's good. But I feel like Stern is really hurting their market.
And what happened to the importance of building pro pins to suit the needs of their target buyers the route operators.
Spiderman VE, and now batman 66 are not priced for operators.
If this pin is not completely packed with features. A High quality art package and wire form or metal ramps and not plastic I'm going to pass.
Unfortunately my fear is this "new" model is what is going to be the norm. Because of the LCD display hype. And that they under estimated the orders of GB.
Think they can cash in on a retro theme being a success at just a "bit" of a higher price in the pinball world if they name it differently and hype it up for expo.
I hope I'm wrong. Because Batman 66 is one of my dream themes. But I guess I'll find out at expo.
I think a lot of folks are missing the point on the "no pro" lineup. I don't think this is a future trend, or a cash grab as I originally suspected. After talking to my distributor, and another local distributor here that I work with, I anticipate they will go back to the old way of doing things with the next model. From what the Distros are being told, Gary is marketing this pin pretty much to collectors only, and there is no real intention to drive route sales on this model. These are an anniversary issue, and they anticipate much fewer sales and very limited runs. Remember, it has 2 LCD's, and they are promising a ton of other features...many of which might not fare well on a routed pin. Also, the more features it has, the higher the price they need to charge, so they are fully aware it becomes less cost-effective for a route operator to purchase one and try to make his money back a few quarters at a time. So somewhere along the line, they made the decision not to price this for route. I know there are a lot of individuals that can't afford anything but a Pro, and it leaves them hanging out in the wind.....(I'm not saying I agree with the decision, I am just relaying what I am told). The pricing model is set up knowing 99% of these will be purchased for private collections. This is also why Stern is requiring the deposit be sent directly to them. They know they are going to sell limited numbers, so they don't want to stock a bunch of units or parts that will sit in a warehouse.....they want a deposit up front, so they know the buyer is committed, and they have the Capital to purchase the parts. They manufacture only to demand, and very little more if any. If we take all of the emotion out of this and stand back and look at it logically, it makes perfect sense. So I think we can all exhale on the pricing...they are not doing away with Pros all together. However, this does give a lot of credibility to the thread debates on whether the bulk of Stern's income is still from route operators. I think this is a very good case in point that the customer base for Stern is shifting away from operators and more to private collectors. I would also think about availability of future parts for these units. If stern is marketing this as stated, they will likely not stock any game specific parts in large numbers, or for very long......this could also be why they are bringing back the crane....maybe they have several hundred mecs lying around somewhere? lesson learned......lol
Quoted from stevevt:
What does this mean? And how could you possibly know if this is true?
I don't know it is true....I am just saying that it is possible. They are throwing a lot of words around like "special", "Packed", "new"....etc. So I am guessing there will be several features in this game. Of course we won't know until we see the layout. The more toys, the bigger chance of failure...the thing may be built like a tank and last forever for all I know.....I am told they are telling the Distros, that this is not being marketed as a route pin, so it is possible they may be adding features more suitable to lighter use....not saying they would break, but maybe there is a corner where a ball can get trapped easy, or maybe it is prone to longer ball times that an operator would not like, etc... If you take the operators out of the equation, it opens up a lot of options.
According to the definition, so did your Grandma...............
Quoted from unigroove:
Here's my theory: When Stern came out with SMVE many here on Pinside, but also distributors at tradeshows, got upset about the Premium pricing of what basically was a rethemed Pro. At the EAG show Gary had to explain their reasoning to everybody. I'm not saying I had any influence, but I did tell him that if they would have named the game a Premium Vault Edition, it would probably had seen less discussion, or disappointment regarding the pricing. I recall soon after the word Premium was added to some of the promotional images of that game.
In order to avoid a response similar to SMVE, they're now telling everybody upfront to not expect a Pro price on this game. Maybe that's all there's to it. And then they figured they could probably milk it more by doing an LE and SLE as well. Based on the people that say they ordered one, it works.
Not sure about the actual names, but if you listen to the podcast, Gomez says pretty much the same thing I did. Small runs intended for collectors. The part I found interesting was right at the end regarding the deposits. They said they did it because they didn't want folks "flipping these pins", so they make them have an up front investment. That confirms they are not expecting these out on route....at least in big numbers anyway. But i found the comment intriguing. I don't know if a deposit will prevent that, but it will be interesting to see how many LE'S wind up in the market ads like Ghostbusters.
Quoted from frolic:
Expo is only a month away. I'd have to think there's a decision already about whether JJP3 will be there. My gut feels like it won't be, Hobbit needs more time to sell through.
I'm an interested buyer for JJP3, so I had to weigh when I thought it might be coming against a decision to get Batman.
In the end, I'm betting JJP3 will not be at expo and will not be here anytime soon, which then puts a Batman in my collection.
Dont know if it will be play-ready, but i am pretty sure there will be a reveal at expo unless something changes drastically.
Quoted from docquest:
Considering how fast they sold out why would a distrubutor sell it for less than MSRP?
Because folks can cancel their deposits, at least with some distros. Stern is a non refundable deposit, but many distros are covering that and allowing cancellations, given how this game was announced, else they would have had trouble getting committments. If Stern mucks up the artwork, or if it is a re -hash, or crazy expensive, you will likely see several back on the market.
Quoted from TigerLaw:
Given that it sold out in one day I think the distros "could" have negotiated a bit tougher and not offered it as a refundable deposit and they still would have sold out (maybe it takes one day longer or something).
I don't think they were ever going to have trouble selling out of the LEs.
Probably not, but we always like to take the easiest path....... Plus, they have a projected margin for games, in order to meet customer needs. Gouge your customers, and they won't be customers long.
Quoted from rotordave:
Hmmmm ... No.
They've spent $X developing Hobbit, they need to maximise return on $X by selling as many Hobbits as they can, for maximum ROI.
Once that cow has been milked dry, and maximum return on $X has been obtained, they will try and maximise the return on the $Y they have invested in #3.
While you are correct that a sale is a sale, the aim for them is to make TWO sales, a hobbit and a #3. Not just a #3.
That's the thin line you tread in business. You don't release a new model while the old model is still selling. Apple doesn't put out IPhone8 a week after iPhone7. They milk the 7 until it can be milked no more.
No, that is assuming a single product, single need customer. Unlike folks that only want to pay for one smart phone at a time.....pinball owners have different likes, and more often than not have multiple machines. It would be more like Nike......everyone has multiple pairs of shoes, even though they can only wear one pair at a time. Each model is different, appealing to a broader audience. The real trick is convincing that buyer he or she needs your product, even though they might already have something similar. Oh I don't know, maybe you convince folks they are going to be really collectible or in short supply by limiting LE sales and taking deposits before the thing is even designed. Play on the need for people to be one better than their neighbors, and folks will hand you dollars. Nike and Stern are both masters of that game. Ever seen the line at a Nike store when new models come out?
Why not deal with anyone would charges more than minimum pricing? Because most distributors provide valuable services which cost money. Knowing my distrubutor will stand behind the sale and come to my rescue if needed, are worth a lot in my books. Just look at the GBLE thread and you can tell who bought from a no-service seller, vs a reputable dealer. For me it is a matter of trust, rather than dollars.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
about time for Jared to leak secret reveal pics. Give us something Stern!
On the plus side, I did get an e-mail today from a distributor, advertising Batman 66 with the poster we have already seen, and telling me I cannot buy an LE, but that there are a "few premiums" left. I thought those were unlimited?
Quoted from lllvjr:
I mentioned this before. I heard premium could be limited to 500
Sorry, missed that one, but I need to go back and look at my Email. I read somewhere there was no limit to the premium run, so long as deposits were made. Now that doesn't mean they will run it more than once, but I am sure they will take as many premium deposits as people are willing to put down.
Ugggh, that artwork.
Maybe, just maybe, Gary is really the Riddler! Maybe the details to the new pin and pricing are hidden in a riddle, that only the REAL Batman can solve. What a cruel and twisted mind...........Send up the BatSignal!
Quoted from dgarrett:
A sold out or a few left, means HIS dealership inventory. Other distributors have "many" left. Totally confusing, but both can be true - its sold out at one guy, but not at another distributor.
Are you meaning production allotment? I don't think there is any inventory anywhere just yet
Quoted from Air_Pinball:
Art style is fine. That's what the promo materials from the TV show looked like in the 60's. It's era appropriate.
Some of you have gotten spoiled by the Yeti!
Maybe, but when you have a choice that is historically between badly photoshopped art and an original scribble, I think we will take our chances on the drawing.
Quoted from Air_Pinball:
It doesn't have to be badly photoshopped. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm just saying the art isn't bad....whether it was made in 1966 or 2016, it's not terrible like some people were groaning about.
It's all good...just busing chops. We won't know anything for sure until the show........
But for the record, I agree on the ZY faces, but to be fair, it takes a really really skilled artist to correctly capture a face, and especially the eyes. I work with a bunch of very skilled artists, but there is only one that I would say has that talent, and he is friggin amazing. He is highly sought after across the US for the bike work he does. In fact, the Evel Kenivel museum just hired him to restore artwork on some of the original jump bikes. Nothing worse than seeing otherwise awesome artwork and then a face in the middle that has google eyes........ if you really look at the artwork posted above, the one thing lacking are the eyes. They are pretty, but have no depth or soul.
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:
Rubbers, balls, novus, bulbs, batteries, fuses, ghosting playfields, etc....
"Firearms" please...Only becomes a "weapon" when your intent becomes ill, and in that case anything has weapon potentential...car, fist, nail gun, microwave, sock full of pinballs, etc...
Nahh...not going to get into a debate, but I can't pass that one up. I own and collect firearms, and was in law enforcement for over 20 years. I am as conservative as one can be, but guns are weapons. They are designed primarily for one thing. A car can be used as a weapon, but a gun is a weapon.
The whole "guns don't kill people" thing is a whole different argument, and people confuse the two.
Quoted from labnip:
i think a large group of people are actually in the middle of suing Kevin (predator) right now.
And even if they win...what do they get? Can't get blood out of a turnip. You can sue anyone for anything...winning and ultimately collecting are the real challenges.
Quoted from ATLpb:
Imo, its extremely reasonable to assume BM66LE ~$9k USD.
BM66P ~$7.5k USD.
Uggghhh, let's hope not. Not that I am buying one, but I hate to see folks lining up to pay those prices. I have no issue with a company making a profit, but it seems the more they charge, the more folks will pay.
Quoted from docquest:
You can now fill out an application on sterns facebook page to try and get a batman SLE. Requires a short essay and a video as to why you deserve an invitation.
Yea, fill out the application and submit a short video they get to use for marketing. Nothing like hanging that dog biscuit out there for the puppies to jump at.....maybe they will yank it back at the last minute! lol Actually, I am guessing they couldn't find 30 "good friends" willing to buy the machines. Sad part is, there will be a line of folks willing to throw all kinds of money at this........
Quoted from flynnibus:
I think this is perfectly reasonable... and better than not offering any at all to the public.
There is nothing in there really odd-ball... and submission videos is pretty much the defacto application now for any participation stuff.
Yea, gotta disagree with you on this one. We are not trying to get on a reality show, we are talking about buying a friggin pinball machine. You gotta put on a skirt and dance, just to get the chance to throw money at them...this is taking the hobby to complete stupidity, and one gets the feeling someone is just seeing how high they can get people to jump. If they really want to do this right, auction a couple off and donate the extra bucks to charity.
Quoted from flynnibus:
Funny.. you all flock and foam to buy LE versions of Sterns... and now that Stern is offering a LE you can't just buy your way into you all cry foul. So funny.
This is not people upset at Stern's actual offerings... its people upset they can't get their hands on the most exclusive thing.
Again I disagree. This game...the Prem, LE, SLE, or double eagle gold LE with the authentic bat-wing topper doesn't appeal to me. What concerns me most is how Stern's marketing folks are counting on the fact we are so easily distracted with the new shiny toy, we will forget about the utter mess they made out of the GB production with defective playfields. Remember way back when they continued to ship out playfields they knew full well would ghost at some point? (We found out they were indeed serious)
They are not stupid, the timing of all of this is to keep minds occupied during the show and parties.....it will be back to business as usual afterwards. Not saying they won't take care of the playfields, and I am not saying they are not a stand up company, but I think the "give a crap factor" will be less in a few weeks. Also, this is all a de-sensitization to the price jumps...take a look at prices before the GBLE, and then compare them to now......you can't! lol The latest game that sold out, did so without a price tag on it! Who in their right mind gives a non-refundable deposit on something they have never seen, and don't know the cost of? Where are the prices now, and where do they fall back to once the hype is over? Stern has found they can slap some bright paint on a pin, add a few hot-wheels, and charge what they want. The trick is make everyone feel second-rate if they buy less than what their neighbor has.....do you buy the stock Camry? Or the one like your neighbor with the sunroof, aluminum wheels, and fancy trim? They both get you to the same place safely. No, these past few months have not been kind to the consumer...we just don't know it yet. I know a lot of you will disagree, but I guess time will tell.
Quoted from flynnibus:
No, you are trying to get into an exclusive set of picked individuals.
If you just want to buy a pinball machine... there are other games you can buy.
The problem is, people want to be in #1, but won't admit it to themselves and try to mask it with excuses like "I'm just trying to buy their product". If you just want a Batman, there are general availability games to buy. Stop trying to fool yourself... but you aren't fooling us.
"exclusive set of picked individuals"........did you really just say that? Thanks for making my point, and a whole lot of others. Since when does buying a pinball machine or being "picked" by Gary Stern for anything make you an exclusive individual? I learned long ago if you are trying to be judged by your possessions, you will always be second-rate, in more ways than one. Wow.......
Quoted from flynnibus:
You can keep beating this drum... but all you are going to do is make yourself hyperventilate while the world passes you by. This path of action from Stern has been the writing on the wall FROM THE BEGINNING. Stern would handle stuff on a case by case basis, won't make any big announcements, will probably take awhile to resolve, and Stern will just keep on keeping on. It's their MO and what they've done in the past, fits their attitude, and low and behold... exactly what they did again.
People are fallilng over over themselves with 'omg, I can't believe stern isn't doing XYZ' -- because they want to make noise rather than actually pay any attention to the facts available to them. New buyers come along and think the company should behave some way and refuse to absorb any history at all about the company or the people running it. 99% of the pinside drama on this is because people are more interested in gabbing and believing that Stern needs to start acting like Amazon.com or shits gonna get real.
Meanwhile... Stern offers tidbits about a game, and hundreds can't help but signup because they don't want to be left out. Stern isn't the problem here...
Not real sure what the 1st 2 paragraphs actually said, but I assume you are talking about the way Stern is handling the playfield issues. I said nothing about that.....I was referring to the way they treated folks by shipping out the known defective units in the first place. And yes, they knew full well they were defective, else they would not have stopped the runs like they did.
As to the last sentence, you are correct....Stern is only part of the problem. If folks weren't lining up to throw money, they wouldn't be taking it. But what goes up will come down, and as in the past, this will end......probably in bad fashion. Just hope is doesn't kill off the hobby for good this time.
Quoted from Mojosan:
Who's looking to be "judged" on their possessions? Maybe guys just want a pinball that they like.
And who, exactly, are you to judge anyone else on what they want?
Do you judge people who go to Capital Grille instead of Outback? Do you look down on the "exclusive" people who buy a Honda Accord LX instead of a base model DX?
What a bunch of miserable, sour grapes, bitter individuals that have taken over this forum.
I wasn't judging anyone. That is totally the opposite of what I was saying. Folks can have anything they can afford.....no skin off of my back. I was responding to the comment that owning an SLE made folks better somehow. And I said it with a smile, so no sour grapes at all.......lol
Quoted from flynnibus:
Reading.. it's fundamental.
Exclusive does not mean 'special' - it means restricted or limited. It's a finite # of people that are being picked to be part of an opportunity. It doesn't mean anything about the people except in context of the opportunity.
But since you projected that being part of this means something about the people or special.. it's telling all about how you think about this.
Again, if you just want to buy a pinball machine... there are other editions. You don't even fucking know what the SLE is... and you are having fits about who can buy one. Reality check dude...
This is soooooo funny.....No one here knows what the SLE is, so the entire conversation is about an imaginary pin with an imaginary price at this point. I don't want one...don't like Batman....and quite frankly, I have enough pins. I have never even seen a Batman movie past the old series.....maybe I am missing out? You are trying awful hard to twist my words into something they are not. Maybe you should go back and look at your comments....part of an exclusive group, and being #1....yea, tell me again how it is just in the context of an opportunity. This has very little to do with the Batman SLE, and was more of a social commentary about this industry. I hope you guys snag one....I'm sure it will be the crown jewel in your collection. And I say that sincerely.
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:
The whole thing is absurd - the market for them is so tiny to start with do they really need an application process?
Like I said, an auction would be the sensible way to go. Let he who has the deepest pockets and the greatest desire win the trophy! I'm guessing the reason they have some to sell might be because the pockets they thought were deep.....eh not so much.
Quoted from LTG:
I submitted an application. Why not ? If picked, I might have the only one on location. I always try to do the best I can for my customers.
LTG : )
Now this......is the best thing I have heard all day. I think Stern should base the decision on those that are going to put them out in the wild for play. hell, I might even come by and carve my initials in it, or at least leave a cigar burning on it. lol OK, kidding about that part, but anyone wanting to put one on route would be a front-runner in my books.
Quoted from jellikit:
"There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde
Actually a good point. The sad part is, Stern could be legitimate 'rock stars' of the industry, if they could just find some quality representation and produce a consistent quality product. The only reason they have the status that they do is the fact they are the only big producer left. Yes, there are others out there that are chipping away at the market, but Stern is producing the titles each year. With all of the issues they have, and with the way they treat some folks (not all), they would really be hurting if they had any major competition. But in a twisted way, I guess their smug attitude is a good thing, in that it helps keep folks like JJ and Spooky in business, and hopefully keeps them growing.
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:
and if they try to enforce it they may end up spending a lot in court to fight it out.
Doubtful that is anything they would try to litigate...the fallout would be bad for them. This is just a provision in the agreement to try and keep a flipper from getting their hands on one and trying to make a buck. They can't enforce it and they know it.....more of a symbolic gesture relying on the "honor" system, if there is such a thing anymore. I would almost bet if someone were to go back to them and try to sell it back to them, they would pass and tell them to put it out on the market. Notice they say they get first choice....it doesn't say they will actually buy it.
Quoted from flynnibus:
It would be a contract between two parties, signed and agreed to up front. The hardest part would be spending the money to pursue.. not the legality of it. I'd love to hear the cites of state laws preventing a party from granting the First Right of Refusal to another....
In order to have a binding contract in place, there is a criteria that has to be met, one element being mutually agreed price and product. In other words, in order for them to get the pin, you would have to set a price up front. A contract with ambiguity is rarely enforceable. So are you going to sell it back to Stern for the same as you paid? Less because it is used? Or more because they are now super-rare collectibles? You would have to set this amount up-front, else you could say you now want 30K for the pin, and since they won't pay that, you are now going elsewhere, etc. What id the thing becomes as valuable as BBB, would you be willing to sell it back to Stern for the same amount, knowing they are going to make a hefty profit from the next buyer? A person would be a fool to set all of that in stone from the beginning, if there could be any chance at all of having to sell in the first 18 months. If you are Uber wealthy, and don't have to worry about things like a natural disaster, kid getting really sick, etc. etc., then the contract is really just a piece of paper and you could care less. But if you are the guy who is scraping savings together to try and get your hands on your grail pin, then you would be a fool to sign a binding contract. Most likely the buyers of these will fall into the 1st group and could give a crap, and I doubt very seriously if Stern is actually going to have them sign one anyway. I am betting this is more of a handshake agreement, and the penalty will be having you on their shit list if you flip the pin. And as small as this community is, word would get around fast, no matter how hard you tried to keep it secret.
Quoted from flynnibus:
Do you even know what Right of First Refusal is?? Because from this post... you don't. You don't need to set a buy back price at time of purchase.. and the whole application process at this point is NOT you entering an agreement on not to sell. They are just telling you that's the expectation of the terms of sale before you apply.
Ha...been dealing in the legal realm for over 20 years, so I think I know a thing or two about contracts. Right of first refusal is NOT a binding contract....there are elements of a contract that have to be met for it to be actionable, and it doesn't matter whether the contract is verbal or written, the criteria is the same. States differ on the details, but the main elements are the same across the board. This discussion started regarding the word "litigation"...as I have said, they are not going to litigate any of this, and they are not going to make anyone sign away their first born. This is just going to be a gentlemen's agreement between parties. Not worth getting into a whole legal discussion about a document that doesn't even exist. If they do come up with a written contract, then someone can post it here and I will be more than happy to debate the legalities.
Quoted from flynnibus:
I agree.. and I think this kind of selfish outrage seen here reflects very very poorly on the community. Makes people look like spoiled brats.
Stern does a special run of games to celebrate 30 years to party and celebrate with a circle of associates... and people are losing their mind because Stern has the audacity to make stuff and not make it available to them to buy.. even tho they probably don't want to buy the game in the first place.
They are screaming bloody murder over the very idea of Stern making stuff and not selling it to the general public. Yet, its an idea that Stern, WMS, Bally, and everyone has done for decades. Or the idea of running contests to get access to events, buying opportunities, etc... like happens every day all around. But in pinball? HOLY F*$%%& its satan himself!
And people wonder why vendors aren't on pinside? Exhibit A right here...
I personally don't think anyone is being selfish or "outraged" as you mention. There are people speaking their minds, which is what a forum is for. Passionate, yes...outraged, I doubt it. Spoiled brats? I could place that label a lot of places in this forum...but I am not sure this is one. I don't think people expressing their concern about being jerked around on a string is being spoiled. And if you are correct, this being a one time thing, having no effect, etc etc, then so be it. We just then move to some other topic and all of thie disappears into the archives. But my guess is you will see this model more in the future, and this conversation will continue, as pointed out above. The SuperLE will happen again......and I am serious when I say I hope your passion for this pays off in having a room full of them. They are not for me, but obviously something you care deeply about. To each their own.
Quoted from Mr68:
I've had guys flip games for profit after I sold them and it never bothered me once. I got my price, what the hell do I care.
Its hard for me to imagine that Stern views game flippers as a threat. Quite the opposite I think.
Actually, that was exactly what was mentioned in the podcast. I can't remember who made the comment, but it was something along the lines of "we didn't want these machines to be flipped", when responding to the question of a non-refundable deposit.
Quoted from flynnibus:
Who is being jerked on a string? The dozen people here posting that aren't even the audience for the game edition? Don't you get it? Internet rage over shit that doesn't even apply to you. That's what makes people look like brats.
Oh I see....so having a different opinion than you and expressing it on the forum make someone a brat? No one is threatening your piece of the universe....you are entitled to your opinion, and everyone else is entitled to theirs, you need learn to respect that and calm down a bit. This is just pinball, and Gary is not a god, nor is he the devil. When you run a company and market to an audience, there is bound to be those that disagree with your methods. Time will tell who is correct and who is not.....not the end of the world either way.
Quoted from kpg:
Hitler reacts to Stern's Application Process for BM66 SLE:
EPIC! "All you with ghosted playfields, leave the room" lol ........ "ate paint chips as a child"........lol
Quoted from drjbeyer:
I think that's a really cool idea...
I do too, and it is a good topic worth discussing So on the flip side of this, (pun intended), would you be killing the resale value years down the line? I don't know....doesn't seem to affect autographed pics and such? Thoughts?
Quoted from MikeS:
Wow! $1004 increase over the previous game (GB) for a Premium and a $1204 increase on the LE. I guess we now have our answer on how much extra Stern is going to charge for the first LCD game! Premium price is basically what the LE price was before. Hopefully Pro price does not follow suit on the next Stern release as that is the only reasonable option left.
Remember, there are 2 LCD's in this model.....whatever that means. But with that said, it is a stiff price jump. If the LCD is indeed the major cause of the jump, then you could probably estimate 500 to 700 permanent increase per model once things settle back down. And as much as we will all gripe, the price will be paid. The 10K by Christmas is more of a reality than folks think.
As an added benefit...those of you that did not get in on the LE runs will most likely have some open up for purchase. You might want to call your distributor and ask them to put you on a list. Given this pricing, I am betting several folks will back out (many distros were offering refunds on the deposits), and I doubt those that were buying to flip are going to be so eager to lay out the cash since there is going to be a very limited group of consumers. Gomez said they didn't want people flipping them, and this is their way of making sure the flipping slows down. Just price them where fewer folks will be able to afford them. As I have said many times, they are not stupid, and they read these forums. They saw what was happening to the GBLE's and what folks were getting for them. Sadly, we are our own worst enemy.
Really think about this.....a $10,000 (MSRP) game sold out at 240 units sight-unseen. They are going to sell an additional 30 with a bunch of extra goodies and better sound at $15K sight-unseen. Why would Stern NOT charge these prices if they can get people to pay it? I know, there are some that will back out of the deal when reality hits, but all in all, most folks knew or at least feared this was going to be the price range when they ordered. Gotta give Stern credit for generating some good short-term cash. Time will tell if the customer will sustain this business model, but so far, the need to feel better than the other guys in your league, is bringing a lot of seemingly unlimited cash to the surface. Maybe pinball has really come back that strong? Maybe not.......but the one thing I do know is that quality will need to get much better fast, or all of this will come crashing down. With inflated costs, come inflated expectations. I sincerely hope this new pin is something special........
Quoted from DaveH:
There were deposits put down. However without pricing, they were really not sold. Now that we know pricing... well that makes it more real.
So now we know the price. However we don't get to see the playfield until EXPO, on basically the same day as the meet and greet that is included in the pricing. I would expect this to go bad. No matter what they show, some people in line won't like it. They won't be able to cancel because of the meet.... OMG Stern is being fucking stoopid. I am just baffled by how they thing this is going to go smoothly. You can't get 10 pinheads in a room to agree on something, and now they will be 10 pinheads spending 10 grand to be there? Expo is going to be a shit show with this one (just my opinion).
I was just referring to the fact Stern has commitments for all of them when I say sold out. And yes, I do know some will back out, and many sales were distributors, but all they had to do was say the magic word "limited" and there will be plenty of folks ready to buy. Now what happens after that, is still yet to be seen.
Quoted from taz:
I was in before for an LE and remain in now. Hell, I paid $9,995 for JPoP's RAZA imaginary game, and now in this case I actually get a game for my cool $10K. What's not to like? $10K by September!!
And that.....is why everyone will be paying more for their next pin. Not calling you out specifically, because there are many more behind you. (And even I purchased a GBLE) I'm just saying the market is bearing the weight right now, so it will continue. Kind of like gas prices.....they raise them a dollar a gallon and everyone squeals. then they lower it 75 cents and everyone breathes a sigh of relief and says thank god. They never stop to think they just got took for a quarter............works every time.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:
and that is why the market is going to shit.
Depends on what side of the fence you are on. If you are Stern, you are smiling like a Cheshire cat. If you are the consumer....well you know the answer to that.
The price itself is not what will kill the market, but rather the high prices and horrible quality that has been coming out the door of late.
The Cheshire Cat (/ˈtʃɛʃər/ or /ˈtʃɛʃɪər/) is a fictional cat popularised by Lewis Carroll in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and known for its distinctive mischievous grin.
Quoted from j_m_:
if they use this as the justification, then they must truly think their customer base is naive. off the shelf LCD displays (which are widely produced) are a lot cheaper than the custom LED display panel that they've been using for the past 6 years.
Agreed, and I'll admit, I don't know if the support (programming, drivers, etc) is cheaper or more expensive for the LCD, but it is the excuse they will use for sure.
Quoted from Pinstein:
Batgirl appearances were special and few. I hope there's a batgirl multiball or batgirl cycle video mode. I wonder if she ever fantasized about sliding down the batpole.
There just has to be a Batgirl lock, where she grabs the Jokers Balls and holds onto them until you hit the blue lighted shots, causing him to die.
I got to say, I am really not into the modern Batman theme, but have been pretty tempted at buying one of these just for the nostalgia factor. I did like the old series.
I've also been following the tidbits we know about this and the JJP game that are going to be revealed at expo. We know the JJP game will be an original design, and not a "licensed" theme. I don't know any real particulars outside of that, so I don't want to come off sounding like I do, but I can say I have talked to a couple of people working on the project whom I trust, and they seem genuinely excited about this game, which give me a good feeling. Not sure I can say that about Stern. Maybe Gomez is, but he always seems very guarded, which leads me to believe he has less than 100% faith in his own words.
When it comes right down to it, good pinball is good pinball, and I really don't care that much about the theme. I care more about the quality of the product, code and game support, and customer service after the sale.
Stern= Undeniable Cash Grab, little or no code support, No communication with the customer, and a required $2K deposit prior to reveal
JJP= Usual pricing model, continual code support, $250 refundable deposit after reveal, and a CEO that will personally return your call/email.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why Stern is trying to lock in deposits before the expo.
I realize Stern is a much bigger company, and they can't answer to everyone, but the truth of the matter is they are answering to No-One. I also realize there may be a longer wait for JJP to ship, but If I have to put a deposit down on a promise, the last few months have shown me where to spend my money.
Artwork teasers on Stern's FB page. Let me be the first to throw up just a little. They are failing on all levels on this one........
Quoted from jwilson:
I dunno, the composition isn't fantastic but the art is good. I wouldn't call it a "fail".
I think you are right about the composition. Truth be told, I guess I was expecting to see those characters, but I figured there would be more surrounding artwork and less cut and paste. Makes me really worry about the playfield. Just looks like it took about 5 minutes for some kid to put together....pretty basic, like the other images we have seen. I know, they work from a library, etc, etc.....just expected something more. And for close to 10K, this is a fail as far as I am concerned. I would expect this on a standard release pro, instead of a 30th anniversary pin. GBLE set the bar high, but they seem to be reverting back to the old ways.
No, and that is exactly my point. I would think the GB artwork and how well it was received, would give a hint to Stern for the future. But instead, they take their 30th anniversary flagship piece and slap in a bunch of library stock images. I know it doesn't affect play, and good pinball is still good pinball, but I just thought the GB artwork was a sign of new things to come. They would have been better off making GB their anniversary piece since this is starting to look like a BDK VE more and more.
Quoted from docquest:
You are incorrect sir. See comments from the artist, Chris Franchi, from his facebook page.
OK, I stand corrected. Still looks shitty in my books, but that is just my personal taste. I don't like the outlines....it needs something to blend, which is the same thing I have said about many of the Stern games.
Quoted from jar155:
Thick outlines on photorealistic images is so jarring to look at. Outlines are very cartoony. Looks really odd. Cheapens the art.
Yea, kind of like he was coloring inside the lines of a coloring book. I'm not saying the guy isn't talented, as he obviously is....but it is just not for me.
Quoted from Trekkie1978:
How many people on this thread actually ordered a Batman 66 LE?
I have one available to me that another buyer wants out from under. I really dislike the artwork I have seen so far, but I am trying to keep an open mind and hope the LCD and movie clips will be the saving grace. I would have to do the deposit prior to expo.....anyone want to be my backup in case I back out after the reveal? lol Don't want to flip for anything extra, but I also don't want to take a risk, based on what I have seen so far+ I think I am really gonna dig the new JJP game and my need to spend my game money there.
Quoted from o-din:
Yep. She also hit the big screen. She played a feisty squaw with Gregory Peck in MacKenna's Gold.
A movie well worth watching even without her swimming scene.
Always liked that movie. It has a great plot, but the lack of special effect capabilities gave it kind of a whacky feel at the end. I'm a big western buff, and I always like the movies with the odd plots. Now I have another reason to go back and watch it again.
Quoted from DerGoetz:
How do you know someone is in the military?
He tells you about it.
Yea, I could give a crap if he is singing it from the rooftops....it is something to be proud of, and something for all of us to be proud of. No matter how badass we all talk, there isn't a one of us that want to go there and trade places. Thank you Capguntrooper.
Quoted from taz:
Rest easy Bat fans, I just took a peek at JJP 3. I still can't believe what a fail it is. It was the great pin everyone has been waiting for and now they're going to sell 6,999 LEs? Talk about a crash and burn. They'll be lucky to sell 100. It makes BM66 look amazing, hell even Houdini is better.
Agreed. The BM66 just got affordable for a lot of folks. I am a huge JJ P fan. But I gotta admit this one sucks.
Talked with the Stern folks tonight. YES, the pricing structure for these is insane. But what is REALLY insane, is the extra 5K for the SLE. Same playfield with a few extra hot wheels, and a $5 bat-signal projector that they are going to offer for purchase to add to the LE. Granted, the SLE cabinet finish is really nice, but nothing makes that machine worth 1K more, let alone 5K. Think about it....Stern is making a really nice profit on the LE's at 9500. Realistically, add a few hundred in toys and make that original profit plus another 5K? That part is just plain greedy, same as JJP trying to sell 7K of their LE's. Stern was originally only going to do 30 of the SLE's as a collector item, and when they saw the potential revenue, they upped it another 50 units. It wasn't because they wanted to help a bunch of poor souls......it was a money grab, plain and simple. I really like the game....love the LCD....and I am still on the fence as far as a purchase. For those of you going for a super LE, I would contact Stern and demand more of a difference, and much more bang for the 15,000 bucks. They can afford it......
Quoted from Rarehero:
I was under the impression that the bat signal that wasn't included with the LE is the little yellow plastic one in the back right corner of the playfield.
No, the playfields are the same. The super LE has a little projector on the back of the topper. The LE topper is the same, just without that little projector. The connections are there, and Stern rep said it would be available for purchase.
Quoted from dmbjunky:
Somebody else said and I think it's correct, if you want to get rid of flippers, get rid of the LE. Sell a base game that everyone can buy and then offer all of the additions as accessories to buy separately. They could even sell a version of the base game that had all of the options already installed for people who don't want to do that. It's the LE that makes people try to flip them for profit. Raising the price just hurts all of your potential customers not just the flippers.
I thought it was funny that Gomez said in one of the podcasts that they were pricing and labeling these pins to cut down on the flipping. I think it was more a desire to get in on the action, and rake in the dough the flippers were making. What the heck do they care if someone buys and flips a pin? It is still a sale to them. I like the pin, and I have a lot of respect for Gomez..... but that is about as far as I go. They are really working on alienating a lot of customers.
Quoted from WackyBrakke:
Does the Premium have reduced game play like a Pro?
From what I was told at the show, the answer is no. I didn't catch all of what he said, as we got interrupted, but I could swear I heard a comment that they (Stern) was trying to standardize the play across all levels, which makes it easier to code, and only one playfield version has to be produced. I don't know if that was just BM66, or all models going forward. I guess time will tell, but on the BM66 at least, all levels of play are the same.
The differences are finish, armor, LE/SLE plaque, and some extra add-on's such as playfield toys and an autographed collectors card affixed to the LE and SLE versions. Rumor has it there is some different callouts on the SLE, but when I asked about those type of differences, I was told that was not the case. Given the confusion, I suspect they really don't know that yet.
SLE and LE have toppers, but only the SLE has the bat-signal. It can be added to the LE easily and will be available from Stern at a "nominal" cost...
SLE has a really sharp embossed type of decal on the cabinet exterior, as well as some extra "bat-toys" on the playfield, but none of them are interactive...they are just hot-wheels, etc. Again, this was part of the conversation around different code for different models, and this is where the comment came in about code being the same. Both LE and SLE have nice flaked black paint on the legs, lockdown bar, etc.
So unless there is something that pops up that wasn't presented at the show....there is absolutely nothing included on the SLE that would justify even one tenth of the additional 5K. And for that matter, there is very little to justify the increase of the LE over the premium, but at least that difference gets you a topper, armor, and some nice paint. Not worth the price jump, but at least it is something material.
So if you are buying to flip.....LE is your model. If you are buying to play, then a Premium is the best bang for the buck. Same Bat-game, less bat-cash...............
Edit: Forgot, the SLE has the upgraded sound system and speaker lights/grille inserts. Still not $500 difference, let alone 5K
(Disclaimer: Our conversation got interrupted several times, so if there are some differences I haven't mentioned, please bay all means post them)
Quoted from rai:
So is everybody loving the clip art or should a milestone pin with a milestone price have hand drawn art like GB?.
I think they had to use the stock images due to the licensing agreement, but I for one would have liked to have seen more hand-drawn work. They cabinets are decent, and the playfield is OK....but they could have really dressed these pins up with a little more work. As it is, they just cluttered things up with a lot of bright color distraction, and called it good. If we actually saw a stripped playfield, it probably wouldn't look that much different than BDK.
Quoted from Mojosan:
The SLE also is supposed to include a personalized voice mail greeting recored by Adam West that will be integrated into the game in conjunction with making shots that activate the Batphone on the playfield.
They didn't know if Adam was going to be physically up to doing it after signing all the cards and such (he's 88) but Jared (Jason?) from Stern confirmed to us that he felt good and recored all the voice mails.
Which is hella cool.
That alone is worth 4 out of the 5 grand for that model.....lol Actually, it is interesting.....I believe every word of what you say, and I am sure it is just confusion on their part. But when I specifically asked about this of their guy who was guarding the games and giving out info, he told me this was not the case. He said the play and features were the same across all models, and that they would not customize any games like that. It is entirely possible he didn't know, and maybe the idea was still in flux, so I take everything said with a grain of salt this early in the game. It's not like Stern has ever shown us they will say one thing and do another.........
Quoted from LTG:
He didn't know. The LE's and SLE's will have some unique features.
LTG : )
I hope so. You would think they would list that in the matrix, but then again, I stopped trying to figure out what they are doing. I am betting it is less 'individual', and more by model....such as all of the LE's having the same messages, and all of the SLE's having their own version?
Quoted from PW79:
I'm not here out of excitement for the game. I'm here as a spectator for the impending shit show.
Stern, or clearly its just us pinballers, are good at hype followed by... well you know.
Wait until they decide to release another 250 LE's that will be subtly different, like having a different color, or no signed card, etc. If this game sells well, it will happen. Just like the extra SLE's, just like the additional epic party tickets, and just like the LE Pinball book run that they are doing. I see it was announced another 100 LE books will be produced due to the large demand.........
Not basing this on any inside knowledge, but just saying they have a history of LE's, not being so limited.......
Quoted from docquest:
I don't think the bat signal projector is motorized for movement or focusing. I saw George adjust the projector at the show and it was manually postioned and manually focused.
Maybe one board is needed for the projector and another to drive the beacon lights?
The beacon looked like it didn't actually rotate. I think is has several LED segments that alterately light that simulate a rotating beacon.
The same as the GB topper. It has 2 of the LED panels
Talked to a Distro today about another issue and asked about the Batman66. I was told they are making Overseas versions over the next couple of weeks, with no expectation for the US versions to ship until well after the 1st of the year. Don't know for a fact.....just what they told me.
Quoted from docquest:
It shouldnt take them that long to make 320 machines. I thought they could make a 1 or 2 hundred per week?
That would be full-blast, which never happens....more like half of that. Also, they have a bunch of other pins they are producing, and I am sure a lot of those are rush jobs for Xmas. Batman66 is likely left to a few of the more seasoned assemblers (if they are smart), so my guess is that they are probably doing 20 a week or so, if that
Quoted from docquest:
Seems unusual for a factory to shut down for 3 full weeks. Especially if there is a backlog of orders.
They usually shut down the week between Xmas and New Year. You can't send an entire factory home with no pay for 3 weeks, and I doubt very seriously they are going to give the staff a 3-week paid vacation.
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