As an "LE guy" that likes to own LEs, these Super LEs kill the luster of the regular LE for me.
If I can't have a Super LE, then I don't have the crown jewel, and I'm less motivated for the "next tier" LE. Might as well save my money and get a premium down the road if the game looks good in reality.
I can't be the only LE guy that feels like this.
Quoted from DaveH:
It's the "Super LE" that is bothering me about this one.
I'm still bothered by it. I'm also a little concerned if this will be an ongoing product offering now. Will every new title have a Super LE? So, every new title has a "real" LE, and then another LE for the rest of us?
It's not "Give me an LE or nothing"... but it's "If you're offering me a second tier LE (with price hike)... then maybe I skip paying extra for that LE and go with a premium... later, if I still feel like it".
Some people have commented that maybe I'm good enough a customer that I could call in some Stern favors and go for one of these Super LEs... but again, is this just the start of a new way of doing things? Do I have to deal with Super LEs from now on? As one of their good LE customers, they are bordering on running me off.
Quoted from Air_Pinball:
We just don't know what the differences are yet. Could be significant, could be lame.
If it's just an additional signature or something, who cares?
Well, exactly. We've not been given the information. Every previous announcement came with a feature matrix (and usually playfield mock up photos). This time I'm being told to make a deposit and not even know these things. How can anyone feel good about that?
Can someone who has gotten a ball park on the premium price PM me? I'd like to know the difference.
That was my suspicion at first, but now I've been told and have read it's a new game.
If that's the case, I just wish Stern would have just rolled out this announcement like normal. I don't know why the need to hold things back. Only spurs the rumors and speculation.
There's a difference between pre-ordering (well, basically ORDERING, you are ordering a game that will be delivered X weeks later) and crowd funding a new pinball venture.
Gomez probably works harder now than he ever has. He's involved with every game now at Stern, as the boss of every team.
Quoted from flynnibus:
It's going to be interesting... since it would have been impossible for Gomez to downplay the LCD anymore than he did. I'm not really expecting more than what we have w/ColorDMD of existing titles. They can take their existing rendering model they use.. and just output in color and higher res and call it a day.
I'll be shocked if the pinball doesn't take a lot of content from the slot machine. I expect it to look a lot alike, as far as the graphics go.
Expo is only a month away. I'd have to think there's a decision already about whether JJP3 will be there. My gut feels like it won't be, Hobbit needs more time to sell through.
I'm an interested buyer for JJP3, so I had to weigh when I thought it might be coming against a decision to get Batman.
In the end, I'm betting JJP3 will not be at expo and will not be here anytime soon, which then puts a Batman in my collection.
I woke up this morning with a eureeka thought that the Batman LE must come with some kind of crazy topper to help justify the price increase. That would also explain why the Premiums allegedly are priced "around the usual Premium price".
Look to the slot machine for inspiration. Maybe we're going to get some kind of Big Wheel? I'm making my prediction now that LE will have some kind of crazy topper, and that the $2k increase will be on full display.
Maybe we're on to something. A WOF wheel in game, with the LE having a large topper version.
Joe Kaminkow is getting a lot of credit on this game, so you have to look at the slot to figure out what his contributions are since Gomez seems to be fully in charge of the pinball.
I don't think it matters to a manufacturer what widget is on the line, as long as there is enough demand for that widget.
Somewhere in a business plan is a number however, of what their goals for that factory are, how many machines it can produce and what kind of potential there is for the business. Then you release as many titles as it takes to keep that factory churning out widgets at that pace.
I don't see new titles being released at a faster pace until the factory can produce them faster.
Stern's mistake was announcing this game, and later prices, without showing the game. No playfield photos, no matrix. What is left for us to discuss other than the price jump?
The little promo flyer says the 240 LEs will be "dressed even more so than a normal LE game" - I assume to help justify the price jump, but we haven't been told what that is, other than what the SLE is getting.
The last LE that had a big price jump was STLE, and that is arguably one of the best LEs ever. So, I'm game if they create the value for the LE, but so far they haven't shown it to us.
And of course there are my issues with the SLE being the "real" LE, and that the regular LEs are diminished, yet they are the most expensive LE (other than the SLE) Stern has produced. But that horse has left the barn.
Buzz/rumors I've heard for the game are all positive, so I am excited for it.
To me the real risk of not honoring Stern's SLE request is quite simply you will never be in their "circle of trust" again. What is that worth to you.
Most SLE buyers I'm guessing would like to be involved in whatever comes down the pipe later.
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:
Dear Ladies & Gentlemen
There will be NO Pro, as this is not one of the 3 cornerstone games we make each year.
We will begin manufacture of Limited Editions in November, following with Premiums for the rest of this year and more Premiums next year.
You will not receive a new model cornerstone game, with Pro, Premium and LE versions, until after the first of next year.
Historically Stern shows up with a new game at CES first week of January.
Not sure why'd they'd declare "3" cornerstone games per year, as you are correct, they did not have that many in 2016. The factory has barely been able to get out orders as it stands so why add new titles to the mix.
Even the Batman announcement, seemed a little rushed, fueled by the 30th anniversary party and Adam West signing. I suspect if that wasn't on the calendar we wouldn't have had the announcement yet.
Quoted from SimonBaird:
I will hold judgement on Sterns pricing untill their next release, it's still to early to determine if the Batman 66 is just a one off hike or if future Pro/premium/Le will now be all priced $2k more. If the latter is true the biggest losers are the playing public and operators.
Just from the little bits of info we've gotten, that Stern does not call this a "cornerstone" release, it does seem to be an evolution of their business model and more "boutique" pins. If so, the economies of scale are at play here. Perhaps they do really intend to sell under 1000 of these, all-in, and the development costs per unit are higher.
I'll just say, for the Stern folk reading this, that it was a mistake to release so little information. If this is a boutique release, for "us" (Pinside / hardcore collectors)... you can't dismiss Pinside then, and you can't be upset that in the information vacuum the higher price of this game is the only thing being discussed, because there is little else to talk about.
I'm going to throw this question out there for all the people upset about being "priced out" of NIB:
If this is a boutique release, and not representative of Stern's "cornerstone" releases, and that their next big title will return closer to GB prices and have Pro/Prem/LE... would that satisfy you?
With so few LEs, I would think any LE buyer could easily get out of it. Assuming the game isn't a stinking turd, but everything I've heard has been the opposite and there is a lot of internal excitement for it.
Quoted from hawkmoon:
My Dealer hasn't asked if i wanted a Shaker motor for just a couple Hundred more yet! Maybe thats not in the mix this time??
I don't think they can raise the LE price and not throw in the shaker. GBLE had a shaker as well.
I can't wait till the curtain is pulled back.
Quoted from Mr68:
Announced too soon with too many negative surprises. This needs to be a spectacular reveal in three days to recover lost ground in my opinion.
Maybe its because I dropped out... Is anybody else experiencing BM66 fatigue?
The amount of time since the first flyer is not huge, but we've had nothing to talk about other than price. That is why we're burned out and this is no fun. No other details, photos, videos or feature matrix. I hope they don't do this again.
I like what I see. It looks a lot less like the slot machine than I was expecting. The LCD is huge, much bigger than I was thinking they'd put in.
In for LE, staying for LE. The LCD is pretty significant, and I'm happy the regular LE gets the topper. They said they were giving more than normal for LE, and that would count.
We've seen many past Stern games get art tweaks in the time between showing prototypes and production. I'm not going to sweat the little stuff.
From what they've said, this is more of a Boutique release, as in the numbers they produce will be a smaller run than a normal game run. The economies of scale are going to be affected. That would also include the license fee spread across fewer machines.
I've put the SLE out of my mind, it no longer exists.
If I judge the LE by "Stern LE standards" we are getting a topper included, which is not normal, plus the usual armor, LE art package, numbered game (in this case done in an original way), signatures. We're also getting a color LCD, so I don't need to buy a color dmd. Still a stretch on price, but this is a "real LE" in that there is actually limited numbers, and I suspect they'll hold at value (not sure about SLE but don't care).
The overall package is quite nice and I'm excited about it.
Would have liked to have seen the game play at expo, but Stern of all companies don't have to convince me they can get it done. If Lyman wasn't ready for people to play it, he's earned my trust to make that call.
Quoted from rotordave:
Did you apply for one Frolic?
I did not fill out the application but made it known internally at Stern I was interested. I figured if they wanted to recognize me as a good customer I'd consider it. Obviously I was waiting to see what the game actually was first, but had an open mind and all options were on the table.
Then came the news about 80 SLE s instead of 30, so far less special. Then ultimately I was never offered one, so the decision was taken out of my hands. Whatever honor I might have felt would not apply to being offered 'sloppy seconds' if they were to offer me one now that someone else isn't taking.
So... SLE does not exist to me anymore . But I look forward to my LE.
With so many dealers competing on price and just selling pinball commodities in boxes, I commend PinballAlley for creating value for their customers and doing it different. That's how you build a business.
Quoted from taz:
Look no further than BM66 to see what would happen if the Pro model went away.
I agree. I always found it odd when people would say that Stern should drop the Pros because they don't want a stripped game on the market. All you've done is removed that price tier completely. The Premium will not be offered at a Pro price.
The only game I can think of at a Pro price not made by Stern is Dominos. No other competitors are offering Pro pricing either. So if Stern got rid of the Pros, then buh-bye to ~$5k nib pinball.
Quoted from rai:
But it's the higher price of the LE that really has me puzzled since to me it's just for the topper, the armor and a few trinkets.
It's also the higher price of the premium that I can understand although that's the only sane price of the bunch. But to me the addition of a color LCD does not equal to a $1000 bump over prior premium costs. And I'm thinking Stern is laying the groundwork for the new price structure going forward.
Aerosmith will confirm whether BM66 is a "boutique" release, with a higher price, or a new standard. Everything Stern has said is the higher price represents the smaller run of the game.
I won't argue for the value of the LE, it is high, but at least we do get a $500 topper which is not an LE feature. Plus the color lcd to me is worth something since I put colordmds in my games. The LE itself is a fine looking LE. If the SLE didn't exist, the LE is a plenty nice machine. And at 240 produced LEs, with the individualized machine names, it is a real LE.
For me personally, the SLE DOES NOT exist. I had entertained buying one before all the details were announced, and in the end wasn't even offered one. So I also have no opinion on its price any longer, or care that they went from 30 to 80. Since I'm not a buyer, it gets a big "meh" from me.
I'd like to know if Batman has a factory date, when is it expected to be on the line.
Considering Aerosmith is expected at CES first week of January, something has to be moving along with the BM66 by then. There's no way they'd announce their next game and not have any deliveries of the previous one, would there? I think that would be unprecedented.
This thread is almost 3 months old and we still have never seen the game play at all, let alone any deliveries. Highly unusual for Stern. I wonder how much the 30th anniversary party drove the announcement of this title, and if it wasn't for that would they have announced the game much later when it was closer to actually being produced.
To be fair, Batman (even the Premium, which people like to call a "pro") has 2 color lcds. I suspect a Star Trek sitting next to it with red dots will look quite dated.
Historically, containers for overseas are shipped first and are in transit for a few weeks. After those containers are shipped, the first truck gets sent to Canada, and every truck after that goes to American distributors.
But until they show us the games on the factory floor, I'm doubting anything is being shipped imminently.
Quoted from docquest:
Lots of funny ones I didn't remember until I saw the list. I love the "Empty Alphabet Soup Bat-Container" from the Green Hornet episode. It even comes with a Bat-Funnel so you don't spill the soup.
Nice. I'm hoping to get a truly terrible one. I think the worst would be to get a middle of the road one.
This seems like a lot of work for each LE. Far different than an engraved plaque. These really are "1 of 1" LEs.
yeah the Jack Danger stuff is usually promoted. So.... cell phones it is, and maybe even mine .
Before the Jack Danger streams that was basically how it was. A machine just showed up somewhere.
Quoted from hawkmoon:
OK,I just got this: Stern Factory currently shutting down for the holidays.Christmas party tomorrow afternoon,when production line shut down ,stocked,cleaned!Production will resume 1-9-17!Nebody else hear this???
They shut down for certain, but I guess this answers the "will we see BM66 before Christmas?"
Can we wait to see the production games before we get our titties in a twist about ramp flaps?
Quoted from Eskaybee:
So for the most part, the criticisms on this title have been spot on.
The criticisms of non-flipping prototype game shown 3 months ago that was filled with 3d printed parts?
All I'm saying is temper the outrage, it gets embarrassing that these are our problems.
Lyman signed the playfields, for the first time, so there's no doubt in my mind he is highly dedicated to this being a masterpiece.
I also acknowledge that Lyman's games take a while to mature.
Quoted from MK6PIN:
Glare from translite- The LCD doesn't reflect at all, but the translite is BRIGHT. There may be a brightness control for it ( kind of doubt it, but didn't have time to tinker much), but the glare on pf glass was pretty strong at the rear of the playfield.
Spike 1 games (GOT and GB) have a setting to turn down the backglass leds. I set mine to 25%, which basically removes all glare from the glass in a dark environment. I suspect BM66 will also have this setting inside the standard adjustments.
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:
So same old graphics and interface but on the LCD - that's disappointing.
Seems to me that is something easily upgraded at some point, possibly from some other programmers, shared with Aerosmith, etc.
I hardly think Spike 2 is going to somehow keep the old dot menu for the duration.
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