(Topic ID: 167575)

Batman 66 by Stern new info


By GAP

4 years ago



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21
#3851 4 years ago

Products made with the purpose of being collectible usually aren't.

#3852 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

This analogy still doesn't apply. A baseball card is an object you look at and hide away. Its entire value is that someone else might want it.
A pinball machine on the other hand, is a game. Sure, I collect them, but I play them. And Tron is a perfect example. I bought mine NIB, and it lost some value the moment I opened it. Later it was worth more, then less, and then more again. And none of that mattered because I think it's a very fun game. Right now, I could sell it and make a nice profit, but I wouldn't have Tron to play.
In the end, the "value" of my. Tron could drop to $2000, and I wouldn't care. It would still have the value of fun. This is the difference between this and cards. When MMr was announced, I almost jumped on it, but even though it was a big drop in price, I never considered MM to be 8k worth of fun, so I passed.

Sure, the machine itself still has value as a game, but it's all the artificial LE crap that won't hold value. Your Tron has held value because it is truly limited - you can't go and buy another new one and they're not making any more (yet). B66 is available in 2 LE versions at the moment and an unlimited premium version for as long as the licence is valid. Maybe in 10 years when pinball has collapsed again, then B66 will be truly collectable.

#3853 4 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Sure, the machine itself still has value as a game, but it's all the artificial LE crap that won't hold value. Your Tron has held value because it is truly limited - you can't go and buy another new one and they're not making any more. B66 is available in 2 LE versions at the moment and an unlimited premium version for as long as the licence is valid. Maybe in 10 years when pinball has collapsed again, then B66 will be truly collectable.

Yeah, I think the LE, SLE mark up is where the BS is concentrated for sure.

#3854 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

This analogy still doesn't apply. A baseball card is an object you look at and hide away. Its entire value is that someone else might want it.

I have to agree with this. My kids collected basketball cards in the 90's. The card market was accessible to literally hundreds of millions of people. True, some collected for investment purposes only and got burned just as some purchase pinball machines for the sole purpose of turning a profit.

That having been said, I don't understand the "false market" concept. If the product sells, there is a market for the product, if it doesn't there is no market. Nothing false about it. Since the dawn of time marketing has been focused on two aspects. Where a market (need) already exists, it is product differentiation. 'Buy my detergent because it is better, cheaper, more environmentally friendlier, etc.' Where a market doesn't exist, it is about creating one. Microwaves, GPS's, PDA's, etc. None of these were necessities at the time of their initial launches; however, companies like Amana, and Garmin, Sharp, Palm, did great jobs of convincing people they really did need them. Did they create a false market or did they create a new market to replace/augment conventional ovens, daytimers and maps?

I agree that Stern has clearly identified a potential new market of collector/investors with full wallets and have focused on differentiating that market segment for optimal profits. And, I do wonder when that well runs dry. Like 27dnast, I wonder how many in that market are in it for perceived profit only. Just like the card collectors that bought the boxes with dollar signs dancing in their heads only to be burned later, how many machines will be purchased, infrequently played, and then dumped? My kids just liked the cards and the excitement of finding a game worn jersey card. They never cared or thought about great riches. Just enjoyed the cards. Seems like that is the lesson to be learned. Just enjoy the games.

#3855 4 years ago

Just figured we were due again....

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#3856 4 years ago

The cards I collected as a kid came with a piece of chewing gum. Maybe that's what Stern is including with the Super LE.

#3857 4 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I agree that Stern has clearly identified a potential new market of collector/investors with full wallets and have focused on differentiating that market segment for optimal profits. And, I do wonder when that well runs dry.

When that well runs dry Stern has an advantage over every other manufacturer. They have pumped out 10s of thousands of cheap (sub 5k) pins. They know that market segment better than anyone else. They just go back to that and weather the storm while everyone else goes out of business trying to sell 8k pins. And we can all hail them as the hero that saved pinball... again.

#3858 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

The cards I collected as a kid came with a piece of chewing gum. Maybe that's what Stern is including with the Super LE.

Same here. My brother and I saved our cards and unbelievably, they did not get thrown out. When the whole baseball card frenzy hit, I took them to a store. Had lots of good cards. One small problem. We used to hang them on the bulletin board in out room so they all had a nice thumbtack hole in the top. (Of course, the ones we didn't save were all used on our bikes. Attached via clothes pins so they would hit the spokes and make our bikes sound like motorcycles! Thankfully, I have no idea what priceless cards were destroyed that way).

#3859 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

And we can all hail them as the hero that saved pinball... again.

Agreed. Just as Stern outlasted Williams, Bally, Gottlieb, and Capcom in the 1990's.

Since thread comment #3844 by 27dnast, I've given out some thumbs up to both sides of this debate.
DaveH, the more I read you anywhere on Pinside, the more you impress me.

Kudo's to all.

#3860 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

When that well runs dry Stern has an advantage over every other manufacturer. They have pumped out 10s of thousands of cheap (sub 5k) pins. They know that market segment better than anyone else. They just go back to that and weather the storm while everyone else goes out of business trying to sell 8k pins. And we can all hail them as the hero that saved pinball... again.

I am rooting for at least 1 other manufacturer to take advantage of the timing and greed of Stern (i.e. they should be killing the competition by pumping out good qualioty games for less money rather than crap for more if they want to win in the long term) in order to figure out the sub 5k market.

Then WE all win with sub 4k games

#3861 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

This analogy still doesn't apply. A baseball card is an object you look at and hide away. Its entire value is that someone else might want it.
A pinball machine on the other hand, is a game. Sure, I collect them, but I play them. And Tron is a perfect example. I bought mine NIB, and it lost some value the moment I opened it. Later it was worth more, then less, and then more again. And none of that mattered because I think it's a very fun game. Right now, I could sell it and make a nice profit, but I wouldn't have Tron to play.
In the end, the "value" of my. Tron could drop to $2000, and I wouldn't care. It would still have the value of fun. This is the difference between this and cards. When MMr was announced, I almost jumped on it, but even though it was a big drop in price, I never considered MM to be 8k worth of fun, so I passed.

Agreed.

The "collectibility" aspect of the hobby is wholly expendable IMO. Stern is just trying to milk that segment of the market for all its worth. When/if that segment collapses, Stern will do just fine making machines that are fun to PLAY.

#3862 4 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

The very essence of pinball collecting and playing has been completely overridden by an industry that is creating a false market of demand...and they are tweaking that false market right before your very eyes to make more money.

I have collected cards all my life. As a kid, there was nothing better than going to the 7-11 and getting a pack of cards and a comic book. My grandmother used to take me every time I'd go visit. My brother and i would trade and flip and have a blast. I still have a good chunk of those cards today.

As a big basketball guy, I started back up buying cards again in 1986 when Fleer came back in and started making hoops cards again since Topps quit in 1980.

Those cards in top graded condition still sell for big bucks, but it was the beginning of the rage again. Upper Deck came out as the "premium" card company in 1989 and that was the Ken Griffey Jr. and Randy Johnson rookie craze.

From then it became, ultra this, limited that, exclusive, one of a kind, exquisite, ultimate, etc..........

I still have a big collection of high end PSA graded cards from the 40's, 50's and 60's. I could sell them today for big $$ and a big profit. But they just sit in a box. Haven't looked at them in years. Some still sit in the mailing packages from the Seller!

How nice would it be to go back to the pack of cards with a stick of gum and a comic book!

Here is where pinball is DIFFERENT.

Aside from the obvious ability to enjoy what you collect, its NOT like cards in one sense.

When they make a BMLE66, it will only be 240 of them ever. Every year, a new version of a Michael Jordan "limited" auto would come out, and eventually there were thousands of that "limited" auto. And the presses keep running today. That is a HUGE difference in card collecting versus pinball.

The novelty of "limited", "exclusive", "exquisite", etc. wore off and ruined the card industry $$$ grab.

The same thing will happen with pinball but on a different level and might take a whole lot longer.

I am a pinball collector AND player. I love the hobby, see myself enjoying and playing until the day i die.

The whole "LE" and "SLE" aspect will die off because every year there will be MORE and more LE's released and super limited runs and it will mean less and less to the "collector" side.

Maybe there are 5k "LE"'s today from pin makers? What will it mean after 30k or 40k total? Not nearly as much from a collector standpoint.

So Stern and everybody else are tapping into that gold vein while it lasts, and in the process they all might end up destroying part of the market by ABUSING the collector.

Good luck with that.

#3863 4 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

.
That having been said, I don't understand the "false market" concept. If the product sells, there is a market for the product, if it doesn't there is no market. Nothing false about it..

Speculation can cause a false bubble tho. The sales may not represent a sustainable, true demand. In a gold rush, there is a market for things, but that doesn't mean it's sustainable at those levels for a longer period of time. What happens when the bubble pops? How exposed are you?

When the companies over feed a similar concept that exists only because of a constrained element... It's always going to burn itself out. The cycle will implode and usually any inflated values will disappear.

Yes a playable pin still has an intrinsic value... But it will be determined by its value as a playable pin... Not its artificial scarcity. And in a bubble... That depreciation could be huge.

#3864 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I still have a big collection of high end PSA graded cards from the 40's, 50's and 60's.

Hopefully we won't have to send or machines out to get graded. When I collected cards they were mint or not mint. Still remember getting the new Beckett price guide every month to see how prices changed. Now with grading it's more then just crisp corners and they look at aspects such as the printing on the card. I can just see it now...pinball machines being graded for their playfield artwork registration, cabinet decal centering, insert opacity, etc.

#3865 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

When they make a BMLE66, it will only be 240 of them ever. Every year, a new version of a Michael Jordan "limited" auto would come out, and eventually there were thousands of that "limited" auto. And the presses keep running today. That is a HUGE difference in card collecting versus pinball.

This. They could make 100,000 copies of a card. The IDEA is an interesting comparison, but that's it.

#3866 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

The cards I collected as a kid came with a piece of chewing gum. Maybe that's what Stern is including with the $15,000.00 Super LE.

but will that piece of chewing gum be randomly stuck on a playfield plastic, flipper or the translite? and just like the gum in the pack of baseball cards, will it de-value the piece that it's stuck to?

#3867 4 years ago

The chewing gum can be used for repairs.

#3868 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Those cards in top graded condition still sell for big bucks, but it was the beginning of the rage again. Upper Deck came out as the "premium" card company in 1989 and that was the Ken Griffey Jr. and Randy Johnson rookie craze.

From then it became, ultra this, limited that, exclusive, one of a kind, exquisite, ultimate, etc..........
I still have a big collection of high end PSA graded cards from the 40's, 50's and 60's. I could sell them today for big $$ and a big profit. But they just sit in a box. .

You mean like this Upper Deck Complete Set from 1989:

ebay.com link » 1989 Upper Deck Complete Set Baseball Cards

$40 OBO... and that's an overly hiked eBay price. Call up The House of Cards and try to sell a mint Upper Deck set (with the Griffey and Johnson rookies 100% mint and untouched) for more than $20 and they'll laugh... and those complete sets were selling for $55 and up back in the 80's.

Your old (old) cards do have value... of course they do...because they have actual rarity do supply and the passage of time. All of those special sets from the 80's seemed important at the time, when that manufactured importance was only immediate and not long term.

We can agree to disagree on this card analogy... it's fine. You and I agree on plenty... but just look at what Stern is doing. They created artificial demand for their little party by selling a limited run of tickets. Then, guess what happens? Money grab time! They "found" more tickets! Super LE... same thing! My argument isn't that there isn't a market. People are buying... don't disagree... my argument is that Stern is self-creating a sense of rarity for these products to fleece the consumer's wallet. It's marketing 101...and its working.

Where we do agree is this notion of "tapping the vein" with ever increasing prices.... I, too, think they are going to destroy themselves. The dust is going to clear in a few years and only one or two of these companies will be left standing.

#3869 4 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

This is all just so stupid. What a crock of crap. All of this LE and Super LE non-sense. Many moons ago (several years past) Nate Shivers joked about a Super LE version of some game and it sounded so silly... and here we are. People worried about LEs and Super LEs.
This reminds me of what happened to baseball cards back in the 80s. Baseball cards got uber popular - truly rare (old cards that survived attics and shoe boxes) cards got super expensive and new young player cards from newish standard run of the mill yearly releases were gaining value. Think of those newer players as the Trons and IMs (pre Vault Edition) of the pinball world.
Know what happened?
Companies got greedy. They started releasing special sets, sets with foil cards, extended rookie sets that captured rookies that had unexpected good rookie years... all kinds of craziness...and prices skyrocketed. Things got super expensive.
New companies started popping up (Fleer and Topps were challenged by Score and others).
Collectors started buying complete sets in the box and storing them - keeping them mint and untouched.
And guess what happened?
Well, for one, the card collecting craze ended. And all of the nonsense manufactured during those boom years is completely worthless. None of it ended up being special in the long run - it only felt special during the "forking over more money" and immediacy of the "fear of missing out" limited nature of card run IN THE MOMENT. There's nothing special about the special cards made during those years because it was all a completely manufactured limited nature....and too many collectors bought and mummified the regular run of the mill stuff.
Don't believe me? Go call up a card shop (if you can find one) and tell them you have a complete set of Topps 1988 cards - never opened, Mint - see what they say.
Sound familiar?
Just step back and look at the crap that modern pinball companies are starting to pull... there's an end game coming to this nonsense, and these LE and Super LE games are not going to deliver on their faked limited nature. Go ahead and trick yourself now, if you must, but a wake up call is in order IMO.
The very essence of pinball collecting and playing has been completely overridden by an industry that is creating a false market of demand...and they are tweaking that false market right before your very eyes to make more money.

Probably one of the best posts I've read on Pinside, ever. Man, you nailed it. I didn't even think back to the baseball card craze and think about comparing them until I read your post. You are exactly right. It totally feels this way, and if anything, this whole BM66 debacle may be signaling we are at the top or nearing the top of this craze. Pricing machines simply based on limited availability versus actual higher build quality and features that justify the price tag is just ludicrous, and not sustainable.

#3870 4 years ago
Quoted from Nevus:

Products made with the purpose of being collectible usually aren't.

Mic drop

#3871 4 years ago

I still can't wait to see this machine - so many cool animations for the LCD

#3872 4 years ago
Quoted from BoJo:

Hopefully we won't have to send or machines out to get graded. When I collected cards they were mint or not mint. Still remember getting the new Beckett price guide every month to see how prices changed. Now with grading it's more then just crisp corners and they look at aspects such as the printing on the card. I can just see it now...pinball machines being graded for their playfield artwork registration, cabinet decal centering, insert opacity, etc.

Or the condition of the carton for your NIB games

#3873 4 years ago

I'd stick my gum to this card

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#3874 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

This. They could make 100,000 copies of a card. The IDEA is an interesting comparison, but that's it.

Until they make a Luci... or a VE... Or a cousin edition to your SLE...

The analogy holds true. The scarcity of these titles is artificial and can be diluted because what the value is based on (the game) can be reproduced and hence the scarcity of the desired attribute is diluted. Old cards are not valuable because the content_ is unique.. they were valuable because the idea of something that was not forseen at the time became in demand later. The idea of a 'rookie card' being valuable was because it was not known that guy would be huge and it was the 'first' of something.

Yes the original is more desirable than a remake/repo... but the presence takes away most of what the pin's value came from.. that exclusive element you could only get if you had the original. The repo/VE/luci/whatever will scratch the itch for most.

As soon as everyone starts speculating on what the 'big rookie' is and you take away that dimension of 'first' and 'unpredictable' its going to be in numbers and flooded. That's why these LEs don't really hold any value as 'rare' or 'diamond in the rough' - they are hoarded by collectors up front and pimped as such. The same thing that happened in the card market.

The 'its made to be collectible' dimension will always undermine what actually drives vales of collectibles.

When we had people buying games NIB and sitting on them to speculate on appreciation it should have been the sign for people to slow down.. but the train kept accelerating and buyers kept amping things up to avoid being left out. Now that the manufacturers are jumping in and trying to manufacture 'collectibility' and capitalize on it.. its just the next phase. All the same parallels to cards are happening there..

#3875 4 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

You mean like this Upper Deck Complete Set from 1989:
ebay.com link » 1989 Upper Deck Complete Set Baseball Cards
$40 OBO... and that's an overly hiked eBay price. Call up The House of Cards and try to sell a mint Upper Deck set (with the Griffey and Johnson rookies 100% mint and untouched) for more than $20 and they'll laugh... and those complete sets were selling for $55 and up back in the 80's.

I think mine cost $70 if my memory serves. I have roughly two loose sets and one sealed set. It was the year before that I got into cards.. and even at that time my uncle had been buying Topps cards by the CASE and reselling later.

But the upper deck cards at the time at least did include a boost in quality We were paying a premium per pack for the card quality too. But yeah, it all went haywire after that..

My stay in the card hobby was very short.

#3876 4 years ago

Alright, who used to collect Beanie Babies? You're up to bat next with your analysis. Room for a good Stamps collector on deck.

#3877 4 years ago
Quoted from taz:

Alright, who used to collect Beanie Babies? You're up to bat next with your analysis. Room for a good Stamps collector on deck.

Problem with all these analogies is you don't play any of them. Pinball is so unique you really cannot compare it to anything else.

#3878 4 years ago
Quoted from taz:

Alright, who used to collect Beanie Babies? You're up to bat next with your analysis. Room for a good Stamps collector on deck.

Still feeding and watering my pet rocks. Anybody else keeping theirs alive?

#3880 4 years ago

Coleco cabbage patch dolls were all the rage. I had to fight an old lady for the last one at the toy store once. She won the fight that time but I have been training and looking for a rematch ever since.

#3881 4 years ago

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#3882 4 years ago
Quoted from BoJo:

Problem with all these analogies is you don't play any of them. Pinball is so unique you really cannot compare it to anything else.

You don't have to have the same features... to be analogous. The point is they PARALLEL each other.. that they share similar structure or pattern.

Pins are a hobby that you engage with.. vs simply admire/present. The key is pins should have some value outside of 'collectible' because they are something someone would play. A car collection is analogous because the cars are not just presentation, but you drive them and enjoy them as cars, not just statues.

Pins are not unique.. you just have to acknowledge what makes up the elements that people like them for. The play part of pins is not shared equally either.. many games are valued for other attributes, which means the play aspect is far less significant to their value, and would hold up less if the other desirable aspects fell out of favor.

#3883 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You don't have to have the same features... to be analogous. The point is they PARALLEL each other.. that they share similar structure or pattern.
Pins are a hobby that you engage with.. vs simply admire/present. The key is pins should have some value outside of 'collectible' because they are something someone would play. A car collection is analogous because the cars are not just presentation, but you drive them and enjoy them as cars, not just statues.
Pins are not unique.. you just have to acknowledge what makes up the elements that people like them for. The play part of pins is not shared equally either.. many games are valued for other attributes, which means the play aspect is far less significant to their value, and would hold up less if the other desirable aspects fell out of favor.

A good example is BBB. It's legend is incredible. It is one of the best art packages ever put together. Gameplay - eh... And trust me, I owned one. It's still very valuable, but it's really NOT for the gameplay.

#3884 4 years ago

I don't disagree with the card analogy to a certain degree 27D

That 89 upper deck is really a box of garbage now and everything made after that date for the most part

86 fleer basketball in high grade. Take a peek at that. 87 too

For example I have an almost complete set of 61 fleer basketball, 66 cards, in either PSA 8 or 9

Take a look on eBay as to what Chamberlain, West, Russell, Robertson etc go for in PSA 8

I lack Chamberlain and Robertson due to today's prices. Yet since pinball came along I have next to ZERO interest anymore

Do a search on a Russell Topps 57 in 7 or 8

Yep, the original classics that they can't bastardize do great in high grade

Maybe that will be the case for an original Cactus Canyon 10-20 yrs from now. Value only grows? While all of this LE garbage today takes a dump

Anyhow, still much different from card collecting imho

#3885 4 years ago

All the people that play my AC/DC Prem and say "Shame its not a BIBLE or LTBR or Luci" = 0

#3886 4 years ago

BBB is valuable as a true original collectible that will never be made again

Just like a 61 Jerry West rookie card in PSA 8. Much less quantity than a BBB

Now go buy a pack of cards today, like a lottery ticket junky, and hope you pull a Steph Curry ultimate auto 1 of 10

Problem is, that is one of 10 is this years version and one of probably 50 different variations for a given year

The result will be 50k "limited" Curry autos by the time he dies!

No thanks, I'll stick to pinball first and true card collectibles!

Now, when the money/ankle grab jumps the shark like we may be there now or soon then this guy will move away from NIB and

Go back to the classic originals like CCC

#3887 4 years ago

How many people here have kids..... and of them, how many buy webkinz?

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#3888 4 years ago

Announced too soon with too many negative surprises. This needs to be a spectacular reveal in three days to recover lost ground in my opinion.

Maybe its because I dropped out... Is anybody else experiencing Batman fatigue?

#3889 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

BBB is valuable as a true original collectible that will never be made again

Purely based on speculation (I have NO knowledge or grapevine to pull from)

but...

What if they remake BBB?

#3890 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Announced too soon with too many negative surprises. This needs to be a spectacular reveal in three days to recover lost ground in my opinion.
Maybe its because I dropped out... Is anybody else experiencing BM66 fatigue?

I was tired of it as of the SLE announcement, (which came after the stern party announcement confirming Adam West)

#3891 4 years ago

Random thinking while at lunch, if we are paying $10k for a pinball machine today, or $7-8k for that matter, don't you think it should have SOME collectibility factor?

I understand where the EM guys like Odin are coming from.

I have games like RS, NBAFB, Indy500 and WPT that are $3k type pins and a blast to play

Maybe EMs will be in my future to collect and play

#3892 4 years ago

I know they want people to dress up for the BM66 party, but I hope they have a Star Wars party...

COSTUME READY EVERYONE!

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#3893 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

BBB is valuable as a true original collectible that will never be made again

BBB was valued because of the game's significance to Capcom and that it was a finished game (unlike many never produced prototypes) that never made it into production. The fact it's a FULL game that was very different and yet... out of reach... is what drove the BBB value.

It's those same conditions that make a IPB BBB less valuable... because the IPB BBB were not the fabled games that were out of reach. It's not about 'original' or not, its about NOT BEING THOSE GAMES.

It's like the difference between the gun that shot kennedy... and the very same model rifle, but wasn't the one used by LHO.. The other gun is just as original, but the value of the first rifle is not about it's originality.. its about **that** individual piece having historical significance.

BBB was valued because of its 'unobtanium' and significance... while still being a complete, and very different game. IPB's games weren't those games built and aborted by Capcom... so they won't ever be the same because they weren't there.

There are other sample-only games that exist... BBB differed because of its story and the completeness of the game.

When you lose the attributes that actually drove the value... thats what matters.

#3894 4 years ago

Maybe we need an Iron Man VE2 party...

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#3895 4 years ago

Theres 2 kinds of collectors, the first is someone who will pay 15 to 20K for rarity, BBB, Kingpin, KingKong, Batman66 SLE I think I'm the other kind in which I'm not paying 20K for BBB which offers the same if not less amusement than TS or JM or AFM which I could buy all 3 for the same price and still have enough left over for 2 girls and party favours , If I was collecting coins or cards well then I can see it but I buy pins to play them not to impress other collectors or turn a profit, nothing wrong with it but difficult concept to grasp in the game playing department.

#3896 4 years ago

Why are you guys going batshit over a woman who has to be 70 years old? True, she was amazingly beautiful in her youth but that was 35-40 years ago. It's kinda weird to me.

#3897 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Announced too soon with too many negative surprises. This needs to be a spectacular reveal in three days to recover lost ground in my opinion.
Maybe its because I dropped out... Is anybody else experiencing BM66 fatigue?

The amount of time since the first flyer is not huge, but we've had nothing to talk about other than price. That is why we're burned out and this is no fun. No other details, photos, videos or feature matrix. I hope they don't do this again.

#3898 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Announced too soon with too many negative surprises. This needs to be a spectacular reveal in three days to recover lost ground in my opinion.
Maybe its because I dropped out... Is anybody else experiencing BM66 fatigue?

Fatigue is setting in for me too. Thankfully we know in a few days the good, bad and the ugly.

I got fatigued on RZ and something else came along.

Same thing happening with Alien.

The BS tactics these guys have implemented recently don't help matters

#3899 4 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Why are you guys going batshit over a woman who has to be 70 years old? True, she was amazingly beautiful in her youth but that was 35-40 years ago. It's kinda weird to me.

I think she was responsible for some of these fellas discovering their PP's, there wasn't any internet porn or Hustler magazine, that kind of thing "sticks' to you, I mean with you.

#3900 4 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Why are you guys going batshit over a woman who has to be 70 years old? True, she was amazingly beautiful in her youth but that was 35-40 years ago. It's kinda weird to me.

What's weird about it James? Just because your wife doesn't look like she did 20 years ago does that mean you don't love her anymore? Wtf

I like to look at hot sexy women, in their prime, today or 30 years ago, doesn't mean I'm jerking off to an 80 yr old Neymar, although I'd wish my wife looked like that at 80

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