(Topic ID: 167575)

Batman 66 by Stern new info

By GAP

7 years ago


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26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

There are 7,100 posts in this topic. You are on page 64 of 142.
#3151 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

'changed' in the specs were tweaked.. but it's still the same platform and has not gone through a major model revision. For 2007 to 2010 its main specs were virtually identical. It's received two engine bumps in it's current cycle (now to be replaced in 2017) but the car was virtually unchanged (relative to the auto industry). The pricing and editions released were to boost the ASP of the vehicle and make up for under valuing the car initially.
The saga of it's price point has been well covered..

You've never met a guy who told you he got the best deal ever? Even if he did get a car for that amount... please refer to 'corner case'. And ultimately it isn't relevant to the discussion anyway... Nissan still raised their prices SIGNIFICANTLY (nearly 15% in less than 2 years, and nearly 30% in under 4) on essentially the same car because they realized the car was under priced for the market. That's the point that matters - pricing strategies include the potential outcomes that your products are under valued and you can raise prices without even really justifying it with new value.

I'm not going to support some argument you made up by failing to follow my post. The post was in response to your idea that the prices shouldn't change simply because there was signs of excess demand (even if you wanted to limit it to short time window) when its the same product. I gave you a real world example of how pricing strategies evolve not only based on YOUR product, but how your product fits within others and the shifting demands.
If you are under priced - most businesses will raise their prices... even without adding value to justify it. It has nothing to do with me 'justifying' the price/value.. but everything to do with pricing strategies.
Do people actually think Louie vuitton bags actually justify their price differences vs gucci or prada, etc? Or how about Universal Studios Pricing vs Disney? These are examples of segments where people price RELATIVE to each other more than pricing in vacuum.

Nope, the latter is exactly what they did with the GTR... and other companies do all the time.. even without artificial scarcity. Products aren't priced in a vacuum.

The difference between a 2009 and a 2013+ GT-R premium is very significant. A 2009 GT-R has 65 horsepower less, is slower, less reliable, and the interior wasn't nearly as nice.

The 2009 GT-R was $70K. If you are comparing to a 2014 model, factoring in 1.59% inflation per year, that 2009 GT-R was really $78K

If you subtract the $96K (2013 GT-R) from the inflation adjusted price of the 2009 GT-R, it is only an $18,000 difference for what many would consider significant performance and reliability upgrades, and a better quality interior and infotainment system. That is about a 23% rise in cost, mostly due to a better built car and the fact it was a first model year and Nissan likely took losses on their 2009-2010 models just to get them on the road.

Please, show me where Stern pinball machines have risen in value, features, and build quality over the period of 2009 -> 2016. Then I will agree that Stern pinball machines deserve to have risen 30%+ during that same period- while not offering any additional hardware and value. They have simply been raising prices this whole time while lower their cost of the machine in order to profit more- not offer any additional value to the customer.. that is.. unless you put a significant value on the limited numbered nameplate on the machine itself, which Stern is clearly aiming for here.

#3152 7 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

Stern is aggressively trying to find where that point of diminishing returns exists with their pricing model, but pinball is a type of market where you won't see it happen right away when you hit it. It will be more noticeable a year or two later. Instead of buying 2 NIB games a year, a collector might drop to an average of .75 per year. The way people stagger their purchases, it might not get noticed until they've already committed to a higher price point.

I think the issue is the price point is very hard to separate from the desirability of the title... which makes things murky when making changes on new releases. You don't always have a 1 between titles to evaluate the impact of your pricing strategy. Additionally, previous releases are still competing with new releases, making it tough to evaluate price increases on re-runs.

Stern could make a move that we all think will sink them... but if the title is a 'must have' the sales numbers can still be strong enough to override that in net. It may not be till the next title that the combination of price and lack of desire sinks a title (see WWE).

Pricing along with productization is an art, not a formula.

Pinball machines are also highly durable goods.. so the resale possibility on them will always be good.. which makes the resale market another factor that has to be represented... from both value recovery and competing products.

Imagine if people paid used car prices like people pay HUO prices on recent sterns... So much of this is about perceived value and supply. I think the resale market in pinball is artificially inflated. I just don't know what it's going to take to knock people off their perches.

#3153 7 years ago

Is that right next to 'www.pinballIsAnotherUniverse.com' ?

#3154 7 years ago
Quoted from kpg:

Please, show me where Stern pinball machines have risen in value, features, and build quality over the period of 2009 -> 2016. Then I will agree that Stern pinball machines deserve to have risen 30%+ during that same period- while not offering any additional hardware and value

That's not even what those posts were about jezus... you guys are so single tracked you can't process anything. It's not about Stern JUSTIFYING the price.. it's about companies capitalizing on what the market will bear.

I don't think the prices are justified at all... but people like you keep paying them... so my opinion doesn't mean jack shit to Stern.

-1
#3155 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Please check in again when you keep up with the actual discussion vs getting distracted by blinky lights. Nothing about this was comparing Stern products to GTR - but about marketing, pricing and business. Something that apparently a large part of Pinside doesn't grasp at all.

Just another nonsensical argument on your long list of them. You make valid points here and there but jeebus man. I simply stated how your argument was incorrect. There was a reason for the GT-R going up in price. What's the reason for Stern, other than cash grab of course.

There's a reason I waited for the 2012 GT-R before I bought it, and it wasn't because the price went up. You want to take a guess why?

#3156 7 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

Stern definitely opened the door for a highly tolerable price increase from JJP

I have to disagree with the idea that Stern opened the door for a "highly tolerable price increase from JJP."

This implies that people wouldn't have a problem with a JJP price increase just because Stern is increasing their prices. I think it's getting to the point where a lot of us are pretty much sick and tired of these price increases, and if JJP just follows Stern and raises the price of JJP #3 by more than $500.00 compared to Hobbit, it ain't going to go over well.

#3157 7 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

There's a reason I waited for the 2012 GT-R before I bought it, and it wasn't because the price went up. You want to take a guess why?

Features that really didn't increase the price of the car to Nissan.. but instead were simply things that improve the car to the customer? The engine tweaks and refinements and restyling are things every car goes through. You waited for the mid-cycle refresh. Good on you.. that's smart. That didn't really make the price point jump valid because of increased costs... it was Nissan continuing to capitalize on the VALUE RELATIVE TO THE MARKET.

#3158 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

That's not even what those posts were about jezus... you guys are so single tracked you can't process anything. It's not about Stern JUSTIFYING the price.. it's about companies capitalizing on what the market will bear.
I don't think the prices are justified at all... but people like you keep paying them... so my opinion doesn't mean jack shit to Stern.

Ok, so it's not about Stern justifying their asking price? Gotcha.. no wonder why arent on the same page, you are the guy who likes to be bent over by corporate america and just take it.

People like me keep paying them? Yeah, not any more at these prices. That's exactly why my opinion SHOULD mean jack shit to Stern, so my opinion is worth something here- and according to you, yours is not. So why waste your time typing it.

#3159 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I have to disagree with the idea that Stern opened the door for a "highly tolerable price increase from JJP."
This implies that people wouldn't have a problem with a JJP price increase just because Stern is increasing their prices. I think it's getting to the point where a lot of us are pretty much sick and tired of these price increases, and if JJP just follows Stern and raises the price of JJP #3 by more than $500.00 compared to Hobbit, it ain't going to go over well.

But let's look at the available paths for the potential buyers...

- Cheaper, yet very comparable (proven) products have been available all along.. in the resale market. Yet, the 'gotta have the next Stern' crowd continue to line up to buy at the contested, soon to be unbearable NIB prices.
- Don't buy new games at all? Maybe..
- Buy the 'other' NIB games available on the market that may be lower priced or at least a greater percieved value per $$?

The market of 'I don't buy old games.. NIB is where it at' is the new money in the industry over the last decade and they've proven turning to just buying resale games isn't their outlet. So I think the tolerance for NIB prices is very much about what NIB alternatives you have.. vs not buying at all.

#3160 7 years ago
Quoted from kpg:

Ok, so it's not about Stern justifying their asking price? Gotcha.. no wonder why arent on the same page, you are the guy who likes to be bent over by corporate america and just take it.

No, I made the mistake of trying to help you understand what and why things happen. But fool me twice I guess.. just like when I tried to tell you exactly how your GB playfield issue would pan out... but you kept spinning in circles wondering why the world didn't change to the color YOU thought it would. Same thing here I guess.

Quoted from kpg:

People like me keep paying them? Yeah, not any more at these prices. That's exactly why my opinion SHOULD mean jack shit to Stern, so my opinion is worth something here- and according to you, yours is not. So why waste your time typing it.

Because I'm intelligent enough to recognize we can have a discussion about product marketing without me deciding if I'll participate or not in the purchase. I can talk about something without focusing only on ME as the customer.

I'm not a customer at these prices... but I know there are plenty more to replace me.. because I haven't been a buyer at those prices in awhile. I'm cognizant enough to realize that and that Stern doesn't revolve around ME as an individual.

#3161 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No, I made the mistake of trying to help you understand what and why things happen. But fool me twice I guess.. just like when I tried to tell you exactly how your GB playfield issue would pan out... but you kept spinning in circles wondering why the world didn't change to the color YOU thought it would. Same thing here I guess.

Because I'm intelligent enough to recognize we can have a discussion about product marketing without me deciding if I'll participate or not in the purchase. I can talk about something without focusing only on ME as the customer.
I'm not a customer at these prices... but I know there are plenty more to replace me.. because I haven't been a buyer at those prices in awhile. I'm cognizant enough to realize that and that Stern doesn't revolve around ME as an individual.

Thanks Flynn, and with all due respect, I personally don't need you to help explain things to me that are based on your personal opinion. I appreciate the efforts and hard work you have gone through to do so, however. That is very nice of you to take time out of your busy schedule to 'help' me here. I feel as if a burden has been lifted off my shoulders, and my daily struggles may now subside.

Also, I commend you on your intelligence levels. I see you are highly skilled in product marketing and have really enlightened me in life, love, and overall appreciation of humanity. Please, excuse me while I now go off and do something awesome with my newfound intelligence that I have been given as a gift from Flynnibus on Pinside. You know, I truly love this community. I feel like a better man already bro.. thank you.

#3162 7 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

Peg me Jack, Peg me. Now we're talking.

This should be in the LGBT thread.

10
#3163 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Features that really didn't increase the price of the car to Nissan.. but instead were simply things that improve the car to the customer? The engine tweaks and refinements and restyling are things every car goes through. You waited for the mid-cycle refresh. Good on you.. that's smart. That didn't really make the price point jump valid because of increased costs... it was Nissan continuing to capitalize on the VALUE RELATIVE TO THE MARKET.

I see what you're saying but I disagree to an extent. The changes did increase the cost to Nissan. R&D isn't free. My point was/is quality and performance were going up while the price increased. Was is it complete correlation? Prob not. Stern quality and features have gone down while prices increased. That's all I'm saying. Now is a great time for some sexy GT-R action.


#3164 7 years ago

I just went to lunch today at my favorite spot Willies and they raised the price on my Chili dogs with cheese by a buck

Cash grabbing m fers

#3165 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I just went to lunch today at my favorite spot Willies and they raised the price on my Chili dogs with cheese by a buck
Cash grabbing m fers

Now THAT'S some BS!

#3166 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I just went to lunch today at my favorite spot Willies and they raised the price on my Chili dogs with cheese by a buck
Cash grabbing m fers

Did you get ghosting buns??

#3167 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

But let's look at the available paths for the potential buyers...
- Cheaper, yet very comparable (proven) products have been available all along.. in the resale market. Yet, the 'gotta have the next Stern' crowd continue to line up to buy at the contested, soon to be unbearable NIB prices.
- Don't buy new games at all? Maybe..
- Buy the 'other' NIB games available on the market that may be lower priced or at least a greater percieved value per $$?
The market of 'I don't buy old games.. NIB is where it at' is the new money in the industry over the last decade and they've proven turning to just buying resale games isn't their outlet. So I think the tolerance for NIB prices is very much about what NIB alternatives you have.. vs not buying at all.

I really have no idea what your point is?

#3168 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I just went to lunch today at my favorite spot Willies and they raised the price on my Chili dogs with cheese by a buck
Cash grabbing m fers

Did you try their new Super Limited Edition chili dog?

It's the same thing as their regular chili dog, but it comes with a limited numbered stamp on the bun since they will only make 30 of them. It's about 50% more expensive though.

16
#3169 7 years ago

Behind one of these doors is a Batman SuperLE, another one is a GTR, the third door is a Willies Chili Dog. You can pick any door or double the money you have. Which will it be?

montyhall (resized).jpgmontyhall (resized).jpg

#3170 7 years ago
Quoted from kpg:

Did you try their new Super Limited Edition chili dog?
It's the same thing as their regular chili dog, but it comes with a limited numbered stamp on the bun since they will only make 30 of them. It's about 50% more expensive though.

Nah, I wouldn't fall for that one

#3171 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

if JJP just follows Stern and raises the price of JJP #3 by more than $500.00 compared to Hobbit, it ain't going to go over well

Speaking as a buyer of pinballs, Hobbit is already at least $500 more than I'm willing to spend on a game. Any game, from any manufacturer. If they tack another $500 it won't change anything for me, but I wonder where other people's personal lines are. At some point it's just too much right?

15
#3172 7 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I wonder where other people's personal lines are.

Say what?

coce (resized).pngcoce (resized).png

#3173 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I just went to lunch today at my favorite spot Willies and they raised the price on my Chili dogs with cheese by a buck
Cash grabbing m fers

The price was raised by a buck? Maybe it was this guy?

Funny deer images2 (resized).jpgFunny deer images2 (resized).jpg

#3174 7 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

If they tack another $500 it won't change anything for me, but I wonder where other people's personal lines are.

No personal line, but to me it's important to get value in the form of stuff in the game. For example, though expensive, I think WOZ is a good value and Hobbit is an okay value when compared to the other new games/price available.

On the other hand, it doesn't matter how fun RZ might be, at $6k there just isn't enough in the game for me to purchase.

#3175 7 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

No personal line but to me, it's important to get value in the form of stuff in the game. For example, though expensive, I think WOZ is a good value and Hobbit is an okay values when compared to the other new games/price available.

That makes perfect sense to me, I get where you're coming from. But for me the key word is "game". I buy pins to play them. And after a certain price point it's just too much money for a game. I can spend it on other things to have fun with instead. Like cheaper pins! Or I'll pick up some more candy cabs and a bunch of PCBs. Or upgrade my gaming PC. Or remodel the bathroom, I dunno, it just becomes too much money to be worth any game.

#3176 7 years ago

Artwork teasers on Stern's FB page. Let me be the first to throw up just a little. They are failing on all levels on this one........

#3177 7 years ago

That looks really great! LE Deposit sent.

#3178 7 years ago

Maybe Stern is pulling a WWE

You know. Low run game on the first title utilizing new hardware

WWE was the first Spike

Bowel Movement 66 is the first LCD, Spike 2.0 or whatev

FWIW to me the art seems fine. Its a legit teaser too.

#3179 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Please check in again when you keep up with the actual discussion vs getting distracted by blinky lights. Nothing about this was comparing Stern products to GTR - but about marketing, pricing and business. Something that apparently a large part of Pinside doesn't grasp at all.

image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpeg

#3180 7 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

Let me be the first to throw up just a little. They are failing on all levels on this one........

I dunno, the composition isn't fantastic but the art is good. I wouldn't call it a "fail".

#3181 7 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Speaking as a buyer of pinballs, Hobbit is already at least $500 more than I'm willing to spend on a game. Any game, from any manufacturer. If they tack another $500 it won't change anything for me, but I wonder where other people's personal lines are. At some point it's just too much right?

Bingo! The funny thing is that THLE's price was actually $500.00 above my limit as well. I was weak and went ahead anyway (part of my weak ass justification was that at least I didn't have to wait 3 years for it like others did, so it was worth paying a little more). I really do enjoy the pin, and do feel like I was getting more for my money vs a Stern LE...but either way, since I already broke my price limit by $500.00 on that one, any additional price increase just makes it that much further away from what I'm willing to pay.

If Stern Premiums are going to be $7500.00 (street price) that is going to be a hard pill to swallow too. I am resigning myself to no more than one NIB purchase every year and half or so.

Quoted from Aurich:

hat makes perfect sense to me, I get where you're coming from. But for me the key word is "game". I buy pins to play them. And after a certain price point it's just too much money for a game. I can spend it on other things to have fun with instead. Like cheaper pins!

Exactly.

I think people like Odin and NimblePin have this figured out.

#3182 7 years ago

I see Roddy McDowell in there. Bookworm FTW!!!!

#3183 7 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

I dunno, the composition isn't fantastic but the art is good. I wouldn't call it a "fail".

I think you are right about the composition. Truth be told, I guess I was expecting to see those characters, but I figured there would be more surrounding artwork and less cut and paste. Makes me really worry about the playfield. Just looks like it took about 5 minutes for some kid to put together....pretty basic, like the other images we have seen. I know, they work from a library, etc, etc.....just expected something more. And for close to 10K, this is a fail as far as I am concerned. I would expect this on a standard release pro, instead of a 30th anniversary pin. GBLE set the bar high, but they seem to be reverting back to the old ways.

#3184 7 years ago

Looks like the left side of the cabinet. Maybe the second pic is the right side of the cabinet.

#3185 7 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

But I figured there would be more surrounding artwork and less cut and paste.

Yeah, it's definitely a little too much "floating head" and not enough cohesive illustration. Like, the GB art is one piece of art for each part - cabinet, backglass, playfield. It doesn't look assembled.

#3186 7 years ago

I agree Rob. $7500 for a premium is a no go for me. Not gonna do it

I would pay up for what I want like I did with this one. It's gonna be an LE or JJP for me every now and then

Will I end up grabbing my ankles, probably, but I will enjoy the shit out of it

Whoops, enjoy the pin!

#3187 7 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

Artwork teasers on Stern's FB page. Let me be the first to throw up just a little. They are failing on all levels on this one........

I have to say, I take back everything negative I've said about this machine.

This artwork is absolutely stunning! Whomever artist they employed did a great job. The talent I see is simply phenomenal and surpassed my high expectations. It looks like at LEAST 4 photoshop layers deep of images they manipulated... and wow... the use of the color saturation tool really shows off how well they enhanced the graphics files they used from the licensor! Man I'm blown away.. I hope to one day possess such amazing graphic design skills.

#3188 7 years ago

I can't wait to shoot that artwork. I'll bet it flows.

#3189 7 years ago

It's high quality art that looks odd for pinball. Photorealistic images make it look like a photoshop job where they apply a filter to a photo.

Also, they need to lose the thick outlines. Makes them look like decals.

#3190 7 years ago

You guys that BM is crap from what you know, take a guess,

How much will I lose on this pin if I pay $9500 today and try to sell it in a year?

#3191 7 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

It's high quality art that looks odd for pinball. Photorealistic images make it look like a photoshop job where they apply a filter to a photo.
Also, they need to lose the thick outlines. Makes them look like decals.

Honestly if they just removed those outlines it would look so much better, and not so layered and copy/pasted.

#3192 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

You guys that BM is crap from what you know, take a guess,
How much will I lose on this pin if I pay $9500 today and try to sell it in a year?

You lose a year.

#3193 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

You guys that BM is crap from what you know, take a guess,
How much will I lose on this pin if I pay $9500 today and try to sell it in a year?

Depends on how bad the ghosting & incomplete code is in 12 months lol

#3194 7 years ago
Quoted from kpg:

Honestly if they just removed those outlines it would look so much better, and not so layered and copy/pasted.

No matter what they did, you'd still be on here bitching about it, nonstop.

#3195 7 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

Artwork teasers on Stern's FB page. Let me be the first to throw up just a little. They are failing on all levels on this one........

Isn't that Locke from Lost?

That's a teaser?? Consider me 100% flaccid...

#3196 7 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

This should be in the LGBT thread.

That's actually not true - pegging is a hetero activity as much as anything else.

#3197 7 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

You lose a year.

And some self-respect......lol

#3198 7 years ago

Well folks can't lie the art is nice...yes lazy as usual with the outlines of the cut and paste but nice. They're going to need a lot more than just art to make this stick though.

#3199 7 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Speaking as a buyer of pinballs, Hobbit is already at least $500 more than I'm willing to spend on a game. Any game, from any manufacturer. If they tack another $500 it won't change anything for me, but I wonder where other people's personal lines are. At some point it's just too much right?

I can't really put a line in the sand on " too much" as long as I can comfortably afford it, in regards to toys. That's all these things are ...bottom line. I spent $50k on an H1 Hummer several years ago.....no way you can rationalize or justify that fiscally....was just fortunate to have the means, enjoyed it for about 6 years, and sold it for $55k. I was lucky.

Hard to put a price on enjoyment ( activities or toys) when you have very limited free time. I'm not paying $15k for the SLE, simply $9500.00 for the LE. I buy when I can, am a hoarder ( don't "flip" anything), and truly enjoy the hell out of the hobby. There are friends I know that drop sick money on bass boats, golf clubs, etc. ?..I don't judge them, it's their money, but I wouldn't pay $50 for a set of clubs.

When I get lost in the zone, it's the best release I have at the moment. If that changes ( fuck it) I'll sell them all and move on to something else.

I have no inside information regarding the game, but seems like a safe bet if you love the theme ( as I do), and given the high profile nature of the release, game is not going to suck. Why would they do that? Don't buy the cash grab argument, they get plenty of cash from running titles. Think they want to make a statement with this one....we'll see.

I truly believe WOZ ended up costing more to make than what it sold for ( counting development, etc.). Jack had a passion for an " ultimate" pin, and like the theme or not, it's truly a landmark machine.

Would like to think Stern also has passion in their craft ( shows more on some titles than others). No way this hype leads to a dog...period. If I lose 2k, even 3k after several years of ownership....wtf....Horray, could have spent that easy on commodity based shit that vaporizes over that time. Suspect they are circling the wagons on this one....I'm happy to be in on an LE.

#3200 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I really have no idea what your point is?

The tolerance for prices will be influenced by the alternatives for their "fix"

Look at how many people say " well I'm disappointed in game x from comapnyA, I guess I'll buy that other startups game instead"

These buyers aren't saying " I just won't buy a game" they still feel the urge to buy and are just shifting who they will buy from. Instead of running buyers out of the market... They'll just shift to the guy that is better... You don't need to be that much better when people are that eager to buy. Price sensitivity is weak when people are so eager to buy "something"

As long as there are other new games enticing people... They are going to break their price limit rules.

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