(Topic ID: 167575)

Batman 66 by Stern new info

By GAP

7 years ago


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26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items. (Show topic index)

There are 7,100 posts in this topic. You are on page 63 of 142.
#3101 7 years ago
Quoted from Billy16:

For what BM66 is gonna cost I'm expecting a hydraulic/electric playfield lifting mechanism...

I'd expect something more like this.

B000F9X792-1 (resized).jpgB000F9X792-1 (resized).jpg

#3102 7 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

On thing for sure, when it is revealed I am basing the worth of BM66 on a comparison with WOZRR/ECLE since the prices are so similar. The bill of materials better be impressive or else it is a bilking of the customers. One other thing, if the playfields of these inflated priced games start chipping and ghosting in the first month after deliveries start it will be a disaster for Stern in my opinion.

If that's true I'm one of the people getting bilked.

And from what I know and have seen that's not the case. This pin will be JJP like as far as BOM and bling

I agree that the comparison is JJP

#3103 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Yup, most older games lost half their value...T3, Austin Powers, South Park, Sopranos, Elvis...most of the pre-SAM games were $2k or less all day long at auctions. Personally I think you're doing pretty damn well if you sell a newer game and take a $1k hit or less...or break even. Even if people can't profit on their used games, I still don't think Sterns will lose half their value like they used to... the tiers keep things relative. A Premium is never going to be valued less than a Pro, and an LE is never going to be valued less than a Premium.

HUO or operator pins?

#3104 7 years ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

HUO or operator pins?

Well, HUO a little higher I guess, but not by much...still, I had a HUO T3, previously owned and autographed by the writer of the movie...I could barely move it at $2300 a couple years ago.

No reason to scoff at route games unless they're REALLY F'd up. I bought a routed Elvis for less than $2k and when I was done with it, it was better than HUO. I bought a routed Austin Powers for $1900 that also cleaned up to HUO standards.

#3105 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Well, HUO a little higher I guess, but not by much...still, I had a HUO T3, previously owned and autographed by the writer of the movie...I could barely move it at $2300 a couple years ago.

That signature couldn't have helped - that script was terrible!

#3106 7 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

And the rails! I'm tired of playfields resting on anything but pegs. Peg me Jack, Peg me.

LOL. I think you might be unfamiliar with what "pegging" is. Hint: Jack probably wouldn't want to do it to you.

#3107 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I bought a routed Elvis for less than $2k and when I was done with it, it was better than HUO.

I think you just coined a new standard "Routed better than HUO" You should patent it and gety $.25 everytime pinside uses it.

#3108 7 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

That signature couldn't have helped - that script was terrible!

LOL...still, it's kinda neat when a game has an interesting history. I bought my No Good Gofers from Marty Ingels, the voice of Pac-Man in the 80's cartoon...sure, it has nothing to do with the game, but I like that the game has that story attached.

#3109 7 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

It can't be anything other than a money grab if they are trying to keep people from flipping games. All they need to do is make the LE a special edition with no limits so then flipping would not happen

?? The flippers don't keep games even if they are good. The better a game is expected to be.. the greater the speculation that feeds people buying up games to flip and creating artificial scarcity.

The way to break 'flippers' and speculation is to remove any scarcity issues. Flippers can't compete with direct sales if product is readily available at expected prices.

I'm still amazed people are harping on what the game's price SHOULD be.. when we've not seen the game relative to the games we are comparing to.

#3110 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Stern isn't dropping the ball on this one. I agree
I get the idea that some people are calling this a "money grab" but I've never heard an answer as to what you think they should do?
If they sold BM66LE at $8k and then watched people flip it for $9500-$10k what would you do?
I don't like having to pay extra on this one but that is why we have to.
And it's the whiner gnashing his teeth over whether or not he should lock in his $2k down payment that is ridiculous. That guy is just trying to figure out whether he can flip it for $11k
I don't buy pins to flip and I know I have an instant loser on this one. I can live with it

Thats not how it should work.

This happens all the time in the automotive market with new cars released to market. When the C7 Corvette came out back in 2013, anyone who didn't order one had to buy in the showroom, and dealers were asking $20-25K over sticker price. Plenty of people bought them at $85K when it had an MSRP of $65K.

So with Stern's logic, assuming they were in the car business- should they then release the next model year with a $25K price increase because some fools paid too much for the car because they couldn't wait, and there was limited market demand?

People are paying $20K over sticker for the Ford GT350... should Ford raise prices on Mustang's now?

People are paying $30-40K over sticker for the new Porsche GT3 RS... guess what.. Porsche wont raise prices to those levels either.

Sure, cars have gone up in price over the years- but car manufacturers add new compelling features and raise the performance bar all the time, you are getting more bang for your buck, plain and simple. Stern is raising prices and offering the same shit in the same wooden box, but raising prices- just because people are flipping machines? If anything they are lowering their cost and taking away certain features with the Spike system. Yeah, no thanks.

A couple of guys may think I am beating a dead horse, that's fine- remember, Stern hasn't even shown us what the horse looks like yet... so there's plenty of beating left in it

#3111 7 years ago
Quoted from SuperPinball:

I think you just coined a new standard "Routed better than HUO" You should patent it and gety $.25 everytime pinside uses it.

It seriously was! I added gold armor & a shaker so it looked like an Elvis Gold...total teardown shop job, new white rubber and lights, all new drop targets and decals, updated the roms, new DMD, new "upper playfield" plexi, color Cliffy post sleeves and PBL's stronger LOTR coils on the lower flippers so it played super fast and snappy, unlike stock Elvi.

#3112 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

LOL...still, it's kinda neat when a game has an interesting history. I bought my No Good Gofers from Marty Ingels, the voice of Pac-Man in the 80's cartoon...sure, it has nothing to do with the game, but I like that the game has that story attached.

I sold a Dirty Harry to the guy who wrote Die Hard 4.0 or whatever it was lol.

He also wrote the last Planet of the Apes movie which was pretty damn good. The game is in his office so I can only conclude it helped him write better scripts.

#3113 7 years ago

They are able to flip the machine because it is deemed worth more to someone else!

In the cargument, the dealers are making the extra profit, not some customer doing a car flip because they just got a great f Ing deal

When you go to sell that Hobbit of yours you won't get out of it what you put into it. May not matter or you may never sell it. At $6500 I may not get that out of my WozLE some day, not planning on selling

Limited anything usually retains it value better over the long term. That's why some Operators are buying LEs now and when they have recouped cost they go on the secondary market for more

If I got f Ed like you did on that GBLE I'd be pissed at Stern too

#3114 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

They are able to flip the machine because it is deemed worth more to someone else!
In the cargument, the dealers are making the extra profit, not some customer doing a car flip because they just got a great f Ing deal
When you go to sell that Hobbit of yours you won't get out of it what you put into it. May not matter or you may never sell it. At $6500 I may not get that out of my WozLE some day, not planning on selling
Limited anything usually retains it value better over the long term. That's why some Operators are buying LEs now and when they have recouped cost they go on the secondary market for more
If I got f Ed like you did on that GBLE I'd be pissed at Stern too

I would agree only if there were no Vault editions made as far as making a profit on a HUO game. I mean if you have a TRON LE HUO, I will gladly pay you what you bought it for when it was released

#3115 7 years ago
Quoted from kpg:

Thats not how it should work.
This happens all the time in the automotive market with new cars released to market. When the C7 Corvette came out back in 2013, anyone who didn't order one had to buy in the showroom, and dealers were asking $20-25K over sticker price. Plenty of people bought them at $85K when it had an MSRP of $65K.
So with Stern's logic, assuming they were in the car business- should they then release the next model year with a $25K price increase because some fools paid too much for the car because they couldn't wait, and there was limited market demand?
People are paying $20K over sticker for the Ford GT350... should Ford raise prices on Mustang's now?
People are paying $30-40K over sticker for the new Porsche GT3 RS... guess what.. Porsche wont raise prices to those levels either.

See Nissan GTR - its price increase has been steady and quite significant while mostly being the same car. They realized the intro price point was under priced.

Prices are increased when a company realizes they missed the mark. But customers are very sensitive to price increases, so typically you use tricks to get the same effect without people seeing a 1 to 1 price increase. Introduce a new model at a higher price point and slowly or coyly remove that prior model. Etc

When the company seems the market is EAGER to overpay for your product or a competitors product.. you will evaluate your own price points.

They aren't going to look just at the corner cases, but this kind of comparative analysis and evaluation of price strategies happens all the time.

#3116 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

See Nissan GTR - its price increase has been steady and quite significant while mostly being the same car. They realized the intro price point was under priced.
Prices are increased when a company realizes they missed the mark. But customers are very sensitive to price increases, so typically you use tricks to get the same effect without people seeing a 1 to 1 price increase. Introduce a new model at a higher price point and slowly or coyly remove that prior model. Etc
When the company seems the market is EAGER to overpay for your product or a competitors product.. you will evaluate your own price points.
They aren't going to look just at the corner cases, but this kind of comparative analysis and evaluation of price strategies happens all the time.

BAM! WHAP! KA-ZING! You nailed it! Pro's will become the new PREM models while simply just charging PREM prices for pro's. SLE's will be the LE models....ha ha!

#3117 7 years ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

I would agree only if there were no Vault editions made as far as making a profit on a HUO game. I mean if you have a TRON LE HUO, I will gladly pay you what you bought it for when it was released

I may take you up on that if/when a TRON premium VE gets released.

#3118 7 years ago
Quoted from SuperPinball:

I may take you up on that if/when a TRON premium VE gets released.

HA HA, exactly my point, if a TRON VE gets put out those LE prices will drop over night

#3119 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

See Nissan GTR - its price increase has been steady and quite significant while mostly being the same car. They realized the intro price point was under priced.

This is true, but it is also the reason that you can get huge discounts from sticker price on a GT-R now compared to the first few years after it was released. I don't see that happening with the new Stern pricing structure, especially in light of the strict minimum selling price that Stern is putting on their distributors.

#3120 7 years ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

Pro's will become the new PREM models while simply just charging PREM prices for pro's. SLE's will be the LE models....ha ha!

batman-umbrella.gifbatman-umbrella.gif

18
#3121 7 years ago

People are calling it a cash grab because it is a cash grab. No ifs, ands, or buts. Period.

It's a damn BDK retheme. With photoshopped "artwork". And it's 2.5x to 4x what BDK cost originally and a LOT of the work is done. And you have to apply for the right to buy it!

Stern is taughting this 30 anni and they give the pinheads this? They could have went 100% original build but they didn't. Ask yourself why. And if you have to, go rub one out before answering. I really don't get the reason why people have such a boner for this game.

They should have went all out but instead give us a slap in the face.

IMG_0862 (resized).PNGIMG_0862 (resized).PNG

#3122 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

See Nissan GTR - its price increase has been steady and quite significant while mostly being the same car. They realized the intro price point was under priced.
Prices are increased when a company realizes they missed the mark. But customers are very sensitive to price increases, so typically you use tricks to get the same effect without people seeing a 1 to 1 price increase. Introduce a new model at a higher price point and slowly or coyly remove that prior model. Etc
When the company seems the market is EAGER to overpay for your product or a competitors product.. you will evaluate your own price points.
They aren't going to look just at the corner cases, but this kind of comparative analysis and evaluation of price strategies happens all the time.

Flynn,

The GTR changed every single model year since its inception in 2008 as a 2009 MY. They had significant transmission issues for that model year too, and it only had 480HP when it was first released in 2008.

From 2010 - 2013 the horsepower incrementally jumped and is now at 545HP. Powertrain, cooling, and other enhancements were made including better wheels and other interior features. You were definitely getting a better, faster, and more feature-rich car as those prices went up. I am one of those who feel it went up too much for its own good, but still- a car worthy of its price tag.

When it first was released in 2009 it was around $70K. You couldnt get much of a discount back then as it just came out. I met a guy about 6 months ago who bought a 2015 for a huge discount, loaded - for $85K. Factoring inflation from 2009 to 2016, he didn't really spend much more for his 2015 that is massively improved vs the first model year GTR in 2008/2009.

So.. tell me how the Stern pricing increases are justified from a build quality, feature set, and bill of materials standpoint - not just "limited numbers" which is a cheap ass way of increasing prices - while offering the exact same product and materials- in my opinion.

In summary:

Auto industry price raise mentality: Lets build a better, faster, more feature rich, and higher quality car and raise prices!

Stern's price raise mentality: Lets build the same machine, just less of them- and raise prices!

#3123 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

See Nissan GTR - its price increase has been steady and quite significant while mostly being the same car. They realized the intro price point was under priced.
Prices are increased when a company realizes they missed the mark. But customers are very sensitive to price increases, so typically you use tricks to get the same effect without people seeing a 1 to 1 price increase. Introduce a new model at a higher price point and slowly or coyly remove that prior model. Etc
When the company seems the market is EAGER to overpay for your product or a competitors product.. you will evaluate your own price points.
They aren't going to look just at the corner cases, but this kind of comparative analysis and evaluation of price strategies happens all the time.

Please don't compare the GT-R to a Stern pinball ever again.

#3124 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

his is true, but it is also the reason that you can get huge discounts from sticker price on a GT-R now compared to the first few years after it was released. I don't see that happening with the new Stern pricing structure, especially in light of the strict minimum selling price that Stern is putting on their distributors.

Stern is constantly playing with their pricing and release structures. If the current ones aren't working to their satisfaction you can bet they'll change things up.

12
#3125 7 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Stern is constantly playing with their pricing and release structures. If the current ones aren't working to their satisfaction you can bet they'll change things up.

It would just be nice to see them "change things up" by actually *lowering* prices for a change.

#3126 7 years ago

I got to say, I am really not into the modern Batman theme, but have been pretty tempted at buying one of these just for the nostalgia factor. I did like the old series.

I've also been following the tidbits we know about this and the JJP game that are going to be revealed at expo. We know the JJP game will be an original design, and not a "licensed" theme. I don't know any real particulars outside of that, so I don't want to come off sounding like I do, but I can say I have talked to a couple of people working on the project whom I trust, and they seem genuinely excited about this game, which give me a good feeling. Not sure I can say that about Stern. Maybe Gomez is, but he always seems very guarded, which leads me to believe he has less than 100% faith in his own words.

When it comes right down to it, good pinball is good pinball, and I really don't care that much about the theme. I care more about the quality of the product, code and game support, and customer service after the sale.

Stern= Undeniable Cash Grab, little or no code support, No communication with the customer, and a required $2K deposit prior to reveal

JJP= Usual pricing model, continual code support, $250 refundable deposit after reveal, and a CEO that will personally return your call/email.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why Stern is trying to lock in deposits before the expo.

I realize Stern is a much bigger company, and they can't answer to everyone, but the truth of the matter is they are answering to No-One. I also realize there may be a longer wait for JJP to ship, but If I have to put a deposit down on a promise, the last few months have shown me where to spend my money.

#3127 7 years ago

The price increase is in part due to Stern having a partner to pay. The partner demands $x per game...Stern just adds that to the price because they aren't going to cut their profit. That explains the LE and Premiums at least. The SLE is a straight up sucker cash grab.

#3128 7 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

People are calling it a cash grab because it is a cash grab. No ifs, ands, or buts. Period.
It's a damn BDK retheme. With photoshopped "artwork".

Wow, I wish I was able to see the complete machine like you did.

Last time I checked, we are still a have a market economy. Companies are free to charge what they want. Call it a cash grab if you like. If they sell well, they may repeat the sales model, if they don't sell well - they learned what the market will bear.

22
#3129 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It would just be nice to see them "change things up" by actually *lowering* prices for a change.

JJP should come out and charge $7500 for Pat's LE, $7000 for a standard and watch their sales explode.

#3130 7 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Wow, I wish I was able to see the complete machine like you did.
Last time I checked, we are still a have a market economy. Companies are free to charge what they want. Call it a cash grab if you like. If they sell well, they may repeat the sales model, if they don't sell well - they learned what the market will bear.

I've seen more than enough to make that assumption.

Same left side of the playfield, same crane toy, photoshopped artwork. What else do I need to see to be disappointed with a $16k BDKVE, BDK66, BDK 2.0???

#3131 7 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

JJP should come out and charge $7500 for Pat's LE, $7000 for a standard and watch their sales explode.

That only works if they can get machines out in a timely manner to compete with Stern. Here's to hoping with experience they keep getting faster and faster.

#3132 7 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

The price increase is in part due to Stern having a partner to pay.

I thought it might have something to do with that newer, larger facility they now occupy.

#3133 7 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

JJP should come out and charge $7500 for Pat's LE, $7000 for a standard and watch their sales explode.

Stern definitely opened the door for a highly tolerable price increase from JJP. But if JJP maintains their current cost structure, they have a HUGE opportunity to gobble up marketshare in 2017.

#3134 7 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

Stern definitely opened the door for a highly tolerable price increase from JJP. But if JJP maintains their current cost structure, they have a HUGE opportunity to gobble up marketshare in 2017.

IF they can ramp up production which is uncertain.

#3135 7 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

JJP should come out and charge $7500 for Pat's LE, $7000 for a standard and watch their sales explode.

Having never considered buying a Woz or Hobbit I would probably be in at that point if the theme is cool.

#3136 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

This is true, but it is also the reason that you can get huge discounts from sticker price on a GT-R now compared to the first few years after it was released

Certainly not every pricing strategy choice is successful or well received But these 'rules' people keep coming up in these threads about market dynamics and pricing are so wrong and generally are trying to replay outcomes verse seeing the actual pieces that matter. Pinball is not an oddball at all.

#3137 7 years ago
Quoted from clg:

IF they can ramp up production which is uncertain.

Good point. Delivery time is an issue.

Man, I would love to see JJP grow into a more strong competitor to Stern.

11
#3138 7 years ago

One thing has definitely changed, the price chatter has never been louder. This could be the do not cross line. Also it never helps when a new company announces a cool game with a lower price right after you break a price record. But seriously folks do you need the peanut gallery to tell you that you are dumber than a box of hammers for paying 15k for a retheme? They didn't even respect you as a customer to give you a unique game for the 15k.

#3139 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Certainly not every pricing strategy choice is successful or well received But these 'rules' people keep coming up in these threads about market dynamics and pricing are so wrong and generally are trying to replay outcomes verse seeing the actual pieces that matter. Pinball is not an oddball at all.

Stern is aggressively trying to find where that point of diminishing returns exists with their pricing model, but pinball is a type of market where you won't see it happen right away when you hit it. It will be more noticeable a year or two later. Instead of buying 2 NIB games a year, a collector might drop to an average of .75 per year. The way people stagger their purchases, it might not get noticed until they've already committed to a higher price point. The big jump for B66 can't be the new normal, and they've said as much. But if it sells like crazy on the premium model, they've said that this isn't the new price structure, so they better not go back.

#3140 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Certainly not every pricing strategy choice is successful or well received But these 'rules' people keep coming up in these threads about market dynamics and pricing are so wrong and generally are trying to replay outcomes verse seeing the actual pieces that matter. Pinball is not an oddball at all.

You mean like comparing a car that has gone up in features and price vs. a pinball that has gone up in price and down in features?

#3141 7 years ago

So where's this new info, man?

the_big_lebowski5_200 (resized).jpgthe_big_lebowski5_200 (resized).jpg

#3142 7 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

You mean like comparing a car that has gone up in features and price vs. a pinball that has gone up in price and down in features?

Don't forget about cell phones

#3143 7 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

You mean like comparing a car that has gone up in features and price vs. a pinball that has gone up in price and down in features?

Cars have gone WAY up in regards to reliability and build quality too. Stern's newest games have dropped off in build quality noticeably.

#3144 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It would just be nice to see them "change things up" by actually *lowering* prices for a change.

And this was their reaction...

Pfft. (resized).jpgPfft. (resized).jpg

#3145 7 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

The price increase is in part due to Stern having a partner to pay. The partner demands $x per game...Stern just adds that to the price because they aren't going to cut their profit. That explains the LE and Premiums at least. The SLE is a straight up sucker cash grab.

Disney has millions of owners...yet a 1 day pass is only $114.

#3146 7 years ago
Quoted from BoJo:

Don't forget about cell phones

Of course!

Quoted from jar155:Cars have gone WAY up in regards to reliability and build quality too. Stern's newest games have dropped off in build quality noticeably.

Fine point sir!

#3147 7 years ago
Quoted from kpg:

Flynn,
The GTR changed every single model year since its inception in 2008 as a 2009 MY. They had significant transmission issues for that model year too, and it only had 480HP when it was first released in 2008.

'changed' in the specs were tweaked.. but it's still the same platform and has not gone through a major model revision. For 2007 to 2010 its main specs were virtually identical. It's received two engine bumps in it's current cycle (now to be replaced in 2017) but the car was virtually unchanged (relative to the auto industry). The pricing and editions released were to boost the ASP of the vehicle and make up for under valuing the car initially.

The saga of it's price point has been well covered..
gtr (resized).jpggtr (resized).jpg

Quoted from kpg:

When it first was released in 2009 it was around $70K. You couldnt get much of a discount back then as it just came out. I met a guy about 6 months ago who bought a 2015 for a huge discount, loaded - for $85K. Factoring inflation from 2009 to 2016, he didn't really spend much more for his 2015 that is massively improved vs the first model year GTR in 2008/2009.

You've never met a guy who told you he got the best deal ever? Even if he did get a car for that amount... please refer to 'corner case'. And ultimately it isn't relevant to the discussion anyway... Nissan still raised their prices SIGNIFICANTLY (nearly 15% in less than 2 years, and nearly 30% in under 4) on essentially the same car because they realized the car was under priced for the market. That's the point that matters - pricing strategies include the potential outcomes that your products are under valued and you can raise prices without even really justifying it with new value.

Quoted from kpg:

So.. tell me how the Stern pricing increases are justified from a build quality, feature set, and bill of materials standpoint - not just "limited numbers" which is a cheap ass way of increasing prices - while offering the exact same product and materials- in my opinion.

I'm not going to support some argument you made up by failing to follow my post. The post was in response to your idea that the prices shouldn't change simply because there was signs of excess demand (even if you wanted to limit it to short time window) when its the same product. I gave you a real world example of how pricing strategies evolve not only based on YOUR product, but how your product fits within others and the shifting demands.

If you are under priced - most businesses will raise their prices... even without adding value to justify it. It has nothing to do with me 'justifying' the price/value.. but everything to do with pricing strategies.

Do people actually think Louie vuitton bags actually justify their price differences vs gucci or prada, etc? Or how about Universal Studios Pricing vs Disney? These are examples of segments where people price RELATIVE to each other more than pricing in vacuum.

Quoted from kpg:

Auto industry price raise mentality: Lets build a better, faster, more feature rich, and higher quality car and raise prices!
Stern's price raise mentality: Lets build the same machine, just less of them- and raise prices!

Nope, the latter is exactly what they did with the GTR... and other companies do all the time.. even without artificial scarcity. Products aren't priced in a vacuum.

#3148 7 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Please don't compare the GT-R to a Stern pinball ever again.

Please check in again when you keep up with the actual discussion vs getting distracted by blinky lights. Nothing about this was comparing Stern products to GTR - but about marketing, pricing and business. Something that apparently a large part of Pinside doesn't grasp at all.

#3149 7 years ago

Please visit www.Cargument.com

#3150 7 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

The price increase is in part due to Stern having a partner to pay. The partner demands $x per game...Stern just adds that to the price because they aren't going to cut their profit. That explains the LE and Premiums at least. The SLE is a straight up sucker cash grab.

But playing devil's advocate to that very point..

Partner brings in assets that have already been secured...
Stern brings in assets that have a much lower cost because of reuse and scale...

Both are bringing assets to the table that in theory should significantly reduce their expenses vs doing it on their own or starting from scratch. Yes there are two mouths to feed... but they are both working from well established, and amortized starting points. I think the latter is much more valuable than the former. The rest is margin because even if they reduce costs ... they don't have to reduce prices. The market will still pay full price.

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