I agree that this is not a black and white situation.

Believe me, I now have very conflicting feelings about this whole thing. On the one hand it really pisses me off to see that JPop had the balls to try and sell yet another pin when he had already screwed more than a hundred people out of tens of thousands of dollars, and to see some people indicating that they would be willing to preorder a pin from this guy is just plain insanity. There is a big part of me that just doesn't want to see JPop involved in designing another pin, regardless of whether it is technically for a new company.

OTOH, my friends who have been screwed out of a lot of money by JPop probably have little chance of recovering all of their money. So if by some small chance (and don't get me wrong, I definitely think the chance is *very* small) this American Pinball can actually make the buyers who JPop screwed whole again (or even mostly so), then I am obviously all for that.

But the devil is in the details, and how this will actually work. AP saying that MG will be delivered to all of their rightful owners by the end of 2016 sounds....well.....too good to be true, which means that it probably is.

As for Batman LE, the crybabies that keep whining about "omg, I've got to secure my $2k deposit before i see it" is just stupid.

Make your own decisions. If you don't like it, move on. If it doesn't work then they will change it up.

Quit F ing whining about it!!!

1bg1t9 (resized).jpg

Never trust Vegans.

Would have been cool to be in tune to the hobby back then....as with many things, timing is everything....I'll just be happy if this game is close to what is anticipated!!!....

It's true. We got shit cheap and sold amongst ourselves cheap. And the people who got in before I did with their container deals were getting AFMs for 500 bucks. I was happy getting 'em for $2500 on the reg.

Not possible...

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

I sure wondered what a JPOP designed Batman would have turned out like...

Doublethink & Doublespeak...

homer-artist-1 (resized).jpg

$15k and you never get it.

You win today's internets. I honestly did lol when I read that.

I hope one of these games turns up at Lucky's Lounge in Edmonton, AB.. Bill has done an excellent job with his pins, and I show up to toss a few coins every now and again since he obviously went out of his way to provide a Ghostbusters for public use. Big shout out for Bill, keep up the good work man!

Edit: Bill = NinjaBooT

Edit: n/m I posted about Jpop stuff in reply to Rob, but this is the Batman thread, no need to derail, so removing it.

Trying to keep this thread on track... this is a Batman 66 one !

There are already one Houdini-specific thread and one Jpop Thread.
If you are comparing the Houdini pin to BM66, fine here. Otherwise, move the discussion to a more appropriate sub-forum, thanks!

People obviously feel priced out of the party. It's a small community, pinheads have heavily supported and in the end saved Stern in bad times making it possible for them to continue business. Now that the company is healthy again and it's time to celebrate they feel like Stern is leaving them behind, targeting the anniversary BM66 only to the high rollers and attaching all kinds of strings to the purchase of the machine. Of course the average Stern customer is upset and expressing this on Pinside.

It's also helpful for Stern to have access to this information. Otherwise, if BM66 is not as successful as they assumed they won't know if this was because it's merely a BDK re-theme with cosmetic corrections or because of the marketing model. So just "moving on" and not expressing why someone is moving on is the worst case scenario for Stern.
By now everyone's aware by that you happily support and promote their price increases and marketing stunts, but the majority of pinheads are not as thrilled by this development as you are.

In Germany there's a popular bumper sticker that Porsche drivers like to use, it reads: "Your poverty sickens me."
I think that sticker is hilarious, still your posts heavily remind me of that statement.

I think this sums it up nicely. People already were not happy with the price hikes and the "minimum sales price" for the distros (preventing price competition that benefits the consumer) and now this.

Now if the next title returns to current prices... say $6700 for a Premium (which is hardly a bargain) then people will get over it.

If it ends up higher I hope they know what they are doing... people already are having a hard time justifying this kind of cash on something they know they'll probably be getting tired of in a couple months.

100% agree. It's a slap in the face to customers that have been supportive for years. And, as you've pointed out, this isn't Stern's first money grab move. Raising prices several times in recent years, minimums price requirements, controlling the mod side of things.

Puke

Also remember this is even worse outside of the US, because of changes in exchange rates with the US $. True for euro, Canadian $, etc.
In here we have to digest an extra 20% (or more) increase. A regular Stern Pro is now around 6,000€ here (sales tax included). I don't even want to know how much people will pay in France for BM66 Prem.

Not that my opinion matters to Stern - never bought a NIB Stern, probably never will.

But it should matter to those buying NIB pins because, as many, I tend to like their games, and I am interested in a number of recent titles I would like to buy after a few years. But now I am also priced out of the secondary market! So once bottom feeders like me can't even second-hand buy the shiny toys Stern NIB buyers are no longer enjoying: prepare to lose your shirt when trying to sell a game which is not a super hit. Plenty of examples here of LEs sold at a huge loss. Unsure how many Pro NIB buyers can afford a $1-2k loss on each title they buy.

I don't happily support it and have been critical of how Stern has handled the whole BM66 launch issue along with the play field problems and lack of communication.

The price increases are for this unique one off 30 th anniversary pin. Maybe that is still lost on some of you, i don't know. Regardless, all of the bitching and whining isn't gonna change a thing. Buy it or don't. I'll be exercising the latter in the future.

My post was directed primarily at one person who will get it when he reads it! Take it any way you want.

All of these NIB's now come with a built in loss when you go to sell them. How long will people be willing to put up with that?

Then again, you have people that buy a GBLE for $8k and sell it for $9500 before its delivered. Maybe Stern taking that away is what all the whining and bitchfest is all about?

If they wanted to celebrate the 30th, they should have made a lower priced pin that all the fans could afford as a Thank You.

Maybe all of the fans should pay a little more for the 30th anniversary as a thank you for sticking it out long enough to bring the sport back.
I know around my place we give gifts to the person celebrating their birthday instead of the other way around.

Can I see by a show of hands how many people like a smart ass?

-crickets-

Oh, nevermind

Painted on the ceiling of the batcave.

It's all good really, Stern is releasing a money grab pin and JJP is releasing a brand new design - not a re-theme - designed by fricken Pat Lawlor. To top it off, it will cost less then BM66 LE, have a REAL LCD with proper a proper graphics design UI (I doubt Stern's LCD and graphics will look anywhere near JJP level), Invisiglass, shaker, and of course- wide body. Guess what else.. it will probably have monthly code updates like whats happened with WOZ and Hobbit. Ghostbusters code hasn't been touched in 6 months and its their latest and greatest, yet Hobbit has seen major updates every 5-6 weeks or so since it's release.

If anything, Stern is basically handing opportunity to JJP right now. The guys priced out will definitely be more interested in JJP's offerings.. its the perfect storm for them, and Jack is probably licking his lips at what is happening. Limited or not, people paying $15K for a machine simply because its "Limited" and not because its fully packed and built like a $15K machine will be getting much less then JJP's 3rd machine as far as value goes.

Agree with all that, except Lawlors game is not a wide body.

It's not?

That's actually the best news I've heard about this project.

If they can get rid of the gigantic TV screen in the head we'd really be cooking with gas.

Interesting - is that confirmed? I wouldn't mind if it was wide body or not to be honest. I am really looking forward to it though. I wouldn't also mind if the screen went a bit down in size.. more importantly is how awesome the graphics interface is on JJP machines and the sound.. it blows away my Stern pins. I'd love to see what they could do with a standard body machine.

That's a great point Ted

It's hard to see Stern dropping the ball on this one.

They won't. It's just KPG's broken record ramblings....

Stern isn't dropping the ball on this one. I agree

I get the idea that some people are calling this a "money grab" but I've never heard an answer as to what you think they should do?

If they sold BM66LE at $8k and then watched people flip it for $9500-$10k what would you do?

I don't like having to pay extra on this one but that is why we have to.

And it's the whiner gnashing his teeth over whether or not he should lock in his $2k down payment that is ridiculous. That guy is just trying to figure out whether he can flip it for $11k

I don't buy pins to flip and I know I have an instant loser on this one. I can live with it

I had a real nice exchange with George Gomez after dropping out and he totally understands my hissy fit. The guy is such a gentleman and it was gracious of him to reach out.

Anyway, George told me both he and Lyman are very proud of this machine and they expect it to be very well received. Read between the lines if you choose but George is a straight shooter in my opinion.

bummer. I thought it was.

The notion that this should cost any more than any other pin Stern makes is ridiculous. I bet this ends up having a larger run than WWE. Stern is telling you it should cost more, but really, why should it? Why should the premium be more expensive than a standard premium? It's going to run the same code as the LE/SLE, so differences are going to be less than the pro/premium split.

This is a gross grab for extra margin hidden behind a false report of limited stock.

It can't be anything other than a money grab if they are trying to keep people from flipping games. All they need to do is make the LE a special edition with no limits so then flipping would not happen. With a special edition they could price it for a reasonable profit while providing a Premium for those that don't want all the aesthetic bells and whistles but do want the game to play the same. The "Limited Edition" is good for Stern but only causes heartache for customers because the customers that don't get in on the limited run either get stuck paying a jacked up price from a distributor or flipper or they miss out.

How is 240 LEs a false report?

With the premium it's hard to imagine paying those prices as well but maybe people will think it's worth it at the reveal?

Lol , politically correct pinball ... Ouch

I'm talking more about the premiums.

Stern don't stop makin pros , remember not everyone lives in that income bracket

ccfa241f86282ede728fd027fc206bf9 (resized).jpg

I wonder how long SLE owners will have to wait on code updates? Maybe the SLE code will be complete before the next 30 year anniversary ahead of LE/PREM owners.....those guys may have to wait for the third anniversary.

The problem is DC, people want and like the idea of an "LE" and Stern is filling that niche

You could call everything a money grab. They are all trying to make a profit

If all they did is a special edition and they priced it at xyz you would still have people complaining about a money grab

What's happening now is people can't buy a NIB pin and expect to sell it for what they paid. In fact, you are guaranteed a loss.

Let's see how that all plays out

Reminds me of Jpop games with non disclosure and deposits, super limited super secret super expensive
IMG_2447 (resized).JPG

If that is true, it's a bad move...yes, some people flip games...however, not all people who buy a game to keep want to pay the flipper price. Flipper prices aren't "the market"...it's a sliver of people taking advantage of a product with more demand than supply. I'm sure the percentage of games flipped per games kept when a game is released is relatively small. Only a certain type of buyer doesn't mind paying the scalper upcharge. No way I'm buying a pinball machine at the scalper price out of the gate. The reason people CAN scalp games is if the game has proven itself to be desirable. We've got a scalper price before we've even seen anything. It's goofy.

And the rails! I'm tired of playfields resting on anything but pegs. Peg me Jack, Peg me. Now we're talking.

That used to be the norm and people who just entered the hobby in the last 5-10 years are going to have a hard time adjusting to it. I see it all the time when they expect to get 100% return or greater on their huo machine and throw a hissy when they don't.

One thing for sure, when it is revealed I am basing the worth of BM66 on a comparison with WOZRR/ECLE since the prices are so similar. The bill of materials better be impressive or else it is a bilking of the customers. One other thing, if the playfields of these inflated priced games start chipping and ghosting in the first month after deliveries start it will be a disaster for Stern in my opinion.

For what BM66 is gonna cost I'm expecting a hydraulic/electric playfield lifting mechanism...

Yup, most older games lost half their value...T3, Austin Powers, South Park, Sopranos, Elvis...most of the pre-SAM games were $2k or less all day long at auctions. Personally I think you're doing pretty damn well if you sell a newer game and take a $1k hit or less...or break even. Even if people can't profit on their used games, I still don't think Sterns will lose half their value like they used to... the tiers keep things relative. A Premium is never going to be valued less than a Pro, and an LE is never going to be valued less than a Premium.