(Topic ID: 167575)

Batman 66 by Stern new info


By GAP

4 years ago



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There are 7100 posts in this topic. You are on page 22 of 142.
#1051 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

JJP is in a odd place....
If they announce #3, guaranteed some Hobbit money goes towards #3 and Hobbit sales suffer.
But if they don't announce it, #3 money will get tied up in one of the other 1000 new machines out or coming very soon ... TBL, Alien, JPOP (hahaha couldn't resist) or one of Sterns 20 new titles they're working on.
Sorta damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation for JJP...
rd

They need to grow up into a real pinball manufacturer with multiple titles at some point. Worked fine for Bally/Williams and Stern. They can't do one pin at a time and hope to make a success of the business over the long haul, so this will be the first step in that direction.

#1052 4 years ago

Agreed. If they want to progress to anything significant they need to be able to have more than one pin on the line at a time ...

#1053 4 years ago

I don't think it matters to a manufacturer what widget is on the line, as long as there is enough demand for that widget.

Somewhere in a business plan is a number however, of what their goals for that factory are, how many machines it can produce and what kind of potential there is for the business. Then you release as many titles as it takes to keep that factory churning out widgets at that pace.

I don't see new titles being released at a faster pace until the factory can produce them faster.

#1054 4 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Agreed. If they want to progress to anything significant they need to be able to have more than one pin on the line at a time ...

Exactly - we've heard it so much over the years, but this notion that the next title eats sales from the previous title is naive. If is product is going out the door it doesn't matter which one it is. More choices for customers = more sales. If I want a JJP pinball I only have 2 choices at the moment, and I don't like either one. If I like Lawlor's game, or the next title, I might buy it - that's a sale they wouldn't have had otherwise.

-3
#1055 4 years ago
Quoted from vireland:

They need to grow up into a real pinball manufacturer with multiple titles at some point. Worked fine for Bally/Williams and Stern. They can't do one pin at a time and hope to make a success of the business over the long haul, so this will be the first step in that direction.

I personally think they over estimated the demand for their titles, especially TH. I have zero proof of this other than Jack's comments and the past and current state of events. Their production and sourcing moves are puzzling.

#1056 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Exactly - we've heard it so much over the years, but this notion that the next title eats sales from the previous title is naive. If is product is going out the door it doesn't matter which one it is. More choices for customers = more sales. If I want a JJP pinball I only have 2 choices at the moment, and I don't like either one. If I like Lawlor's game, or the next title, I might buy it - that's a sale they wouldn't have had otherwise.

Agreed....TBL, Alien, and BM66 are gonna show....JJP#3 just makes a huge win for consumers AND Manufacturers, imho...choice is healthy...plus, the 3 mentioned will appeal to different groups/ tastes...JJP#3 could fill yet another spot
....this could be an expensive 4th quarter in hobby land ( for me, anyway)

#1057 4 years ago
Quoted from vireland:

They need to grow up into a real pinball manufacturer with multiple titles at some point. Worked fine for Bally/Williams and Stern. They can't do one pin at a time and hope to make a success of the business over the long haul, so this will be the first step in that direction.

Also, hopefully they already have somebody diligently designing #4 as #3 is getting close to ready for manufacturing.

#1058 4 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

» YouTube video

th (resized).jpg

#1059 4 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Also, hopefully they already have somebody diligently designing #4 as #3 is getting close to ready for manufacturing.

Isn't #4 supposed to be Toy Story?

#1060 4 years ago
Quoted from vireland:

Isn't #4 supposed to be Toy Story?

i heard it is Frozen

#1061 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Exactly - we've heard it so much over the years, but this notion that the next title eats sales from the previous title is naive

Hmmmm ... No.

They've spent $X developing Hobbit, they need to maximise return on $X by selling as many Hobbits as they can, for maximum ROI.

Once that cow has been milked dry, and maximum return on $X has been obtained, they will try and maximise the return on the $Y they have invested in #3.

While you are correct that a sale is a sale, the aim for them is to make TWO sales, a hobbit and a #3. Not just a #3.

That's the thin line you tread in business. You don't release a new model while the old model is still selling. Apple doesn't put out IPhone8 a week after iPhone7. They milk the 7 until it can be milked no more.

rd

#1062 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

They've spent $X developing Hobbit, they need to maximise return on $X by selling as many Hobbits as they can, for maximum ROI.

Yet somehow Stern manages to have six or more titles available at the same time.

#1063 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Hmmmm ... No.
They've spent $X developing Hobbit, they need to maximise return on $X by selling as many Hobbits as they can, for maximum ROI.
Once that cow has been milked dry, and maximum return on $X has been obtained, they will try and maximise the return on the $Y they have invested in #3.
While you are correct that a sale is a sale, the aim for them is to make TWO sales, a hobbit and a #3. Not just a #3.
That's the thin line you tread in business. You don't release a new model while the old model is still selling. Apple doesn't put out IPhone8 a week after iPhone7. They milk the 7 until it can be milked no more.
rd

No, that is assuming a single product, single need customer. Unlike folks that only want to pay for one smart phone at a time.....pinball owners have different likes, and more often than not have multiple machines. It would be more like Nike......everyone has multiple pairs of shoes, even though they can only wear one pair at a time. Each model is different, appealing to a broader audience. The real trick is convincing that buyer he or she needs your product, even though they might already have something similar. Oh I don't know, maybe you convince folks they are going to be really collectible or in short supply by limiting LE sales and taking deposits before the thing is even designed. Play on the need for people to be one better than their neighbors, and folks will hand you dollars. Nike and Stern are both masters of that game. Ever seen the line at a Nike store when new models come out?

#1064 4 years ago

JJP is planning on running two lines and have already said the second will be building a small run of WOZ very soon. Presumably they will be building TH and JJP3 at the same time. Yes TH may take a sales hit from #3 but I'm sure Jack would rather take that hit than lose sales to Stern.

#1065 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

JJP is in a odd place....
If they announce #3, guaranteed some Hobbit money goes towards #3 and Hobbit sales suffer.
But if they don't announce it, #3 money will get tied up in one of the other 1000 new machines out or coming very soon ... TBL, Alien, JPOP (hahaha couldn't resist) or one of Sterns 20 new titles they're working on.
Sorta damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation for JJP...
rd

Using that logic, wouldn't Alien would be eating into sales of Full Throttle?

#1066 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Hmmmm ... No.

That's the thin line you tread in business. You don't release a new model while the old model is still selling. Apple doesn't put out IPhone8 a week after iPhone7. They milk the 7 until it can be milked no more.
rd

Stern does it.

The iPhone analogy is a bit different because its an older generation of the same model.

#1067 4 years ago
Quoted from clg:

JJP is planning on running two lines and have already said the second will be building a small run of WOZ very soon. Presumably they will be building TH and JJP3 at the same time. Yes TH may take a sales hit from #3 but I'm sure Jack would rather take that hit than lose sales to Stern.

TH has already taken a hit from...TH. Not sure if it's because of the dud bloated movies or the actual machine's design, or a combination, but it doesn't seem to have anywhere near the heat/buzz of WoZ, so moving on to the next one is probably a fine idea anyway. Build out the orders they already have for TH and keep small fill-in runs, but move on to the next big thing(s).

#1068 4 years ago
Quoted from Air_Pinball:

Using that logic, wouldn't Alien would be eating into sales of Full Throttle?

Yep. There are plenty of people in the Alien thread who have said they are not buying FThrottle because they are wanting Alien ... However they are buying the conversion kit, so that's a good move by Heighway. A lot of those conversion kit customers wouldn't have bought FThrottle as a stand alone machine.

rd

#1069 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Yep. There are plenty of people in the Alien thread who have said they are not buying FThrottle because they are wanting Alien ... However they are buying the conversion kit, so that's a good move by Heighway. A lot of those conversion kit customers wouldn't have bought FThrottle as a stand alone machine.
rd

That is true....forgot about the conversion possibilities with Heighway.

#1070 4 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Street prices for Sterns have recently been 5k / 6.5k / 7.5k for pro / prem /le.

I'm glad you posted this. Not sure if everyone has been tracking this at home, Stern implemented MAP pricing which also made buyers prices go up.

As I understand it, some disti's were taking a smaller margin on games and selling on volume to make their money. Some other disti's (who were losing business) complained, and Stern responded by setting a firm floor pricing for all disti's with penalties for anyone who sells below. Also known as Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).

MAP exists in other businesses to (i.e. Bose speakers). It's meant to:
- Promote fair competition across all distribution channels
- Maintain brand identity and value
- Allow smaller sellers to compete with larger retailers
- Prevent underpricing
- Protect seller margins

If you're going to institute MAP pricing then why does a call have to be made to find out pricing?? You've already set a floor on pricing! If disti's are trying to charge more than the floor, let them compete with each other and tell us why their warranty, service, etc deserves a premium over the MAP pricing.

Feels like an FU to buyers every step of the way. Net-net our prices went up by this move and we still have to "call around" in order to see who's closest to the floor pricing (feels like car buying). Really starting to turn me off how these pricing changes (and not sharing pricing info on Batman 66) don't reflect costs or improved products, but rather a money grab at the detriment of buyers. The crazy thing is, I don't see an end in sight because the community keeps buying at the higher prices.

Thank you mam may I have another? Anyone want to build a TrueCar service for the pinball hobby?

#1071 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Yet somehow Stern manages to have six or more titles available at the same time.

Because stern has the volume, capital and distribution that can afford to hold inventory. It takes a run up of success before you can afford to float a catalog of titles. You also need desirable titles. As much as we all like to say we can still get Metallica, Star Trek, etc... Games like wwe, kiss, and others suffer from the catalog availability.

#1072 4 years ago

Why not deal with anyone would charges more than minimum pricing? Because most distributors provide valuable services which cost money. Knowing my distrubutor will stand behind the sale and come to my rescue if needed, are worth a lot in my books. Just look at the GBLE thread and you can tell who bought from a no-service seller, vs a reputable dealer. For me it is a matter of trust, rather than dollars.

#1074 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

If you're going to institute MAP pricing then why does a call have to be made to find out pricing?? You've already set a floor on pricing! If disti's are trying to charge more than the floor, let them compete with each other and tell us why their warranty, service, etc deserves a premium over the MAP pricing.

Everything you say is accurate, and your question is essentially rhetorical. Stern purposefully reduces distributor competition by setting the unadvertised minimum selling price, and gives distributors the flexibility to go up to MSRP when possible. In other words, MAP doesn't actually eliminate the need to shop around.

#1075 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Because stern has the volume, capital and distribution that can afford to hold inventory. It takes a run up of success before you can afford to float a catalog of titles. You also need desirable titles. As much as we all like to say we can still get Metallica, Star Trek, etc... Games like wwe, kiss, and others suffer from the catalog availability.

Exactly. Stern can run 4-6 titles at a time, and afford a couple of titles that aren't super sellers (like WWE)

If JJP #3 turns out to be Roller Coaster Tycoon Meets Monopoly, things ain't going to be too rosy over in Jersey ....

rd

#1076 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

JJP is in a odd place....
If they announce #3, guaranteed some Hobbit money goes towards #3 and Hobbit sales suffer.
But if they don't announce it, #3 money will get tied up in one of the other 1000 new machines out or coming very soon ... TBL, Alien, JPOP (hahaha couldn't resist) or one of Sterns 20 new titles they're working on.
Sorta damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of situation for JJP...
rd

True. I think batman would be a good title to go up 'against as well'.
With the increased price and limited LE models...
Would probably do a lot worse against the Aerosmith/star wars with a pro model so much cheaper.

14
#1077 4 years ago

I don't want to get into the economics of the pinball biz but the Hobbit was a huge miss, they should have knocked the cover off the ball with that second title. Instead the produced an uninspiring game. Sure it has a deep rule set and that's great but JJP's second game should have shut out Stern completely. They dropped the ball on that opportunity and that's no lie.

#1078 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

but JJP's second game should have shut out Stern completely.

Holy crap.
This is the greatest thing I have read on pinside.
One does not simply 'shut down stern'

#1079 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

I don't want to get into the economics of the pinball biz but the Hobbit was a huge miss, they should have knocked the cover off the ball with that second title. Instead the produced an uninspiring game. Sure it has a deep rule set and that's great but JJP's second game should have shut out Stern completely. They dropped the ball on that opportunity and that's no lie.

They gambled on it being "LOTR 2"...anyone who loved LOTR would have to love "LOTR on Steroids"...return of LOTR's code master, wide body, full color animation on a huge display....what could go wrong!? Oh, Balcer left before finishing the design - leaving them with a bare playfield. The initial art reveal which made pre-orderers go "WTF". Let's not forget the delays, which eventually put the game out after he movies came and went - and audiences didn't really connect with them like they did with LOTR....and let's face it - in this era of über-expensive games, buyers have to LOVE the theme in order to drop the cash. That's why Sterns games are selling, despite the prices and lower bling factor - theme theme theme. No one cares about Hobbit. People have nostalgia for Batman'66.

#1080 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

No one cares about Hobbit. People have nostalgia for Batman'66.

I wonder if that holds in Europe. I just think Batman 66, Spiderman VE, Rob Zombie, America Most wanted, Pabst Can Crusher, Whoa Nellie and WWE kind of titles will be more an american thing. On first look, I do not care about the Hobbit nor Batman 66. Maybe it will change after playing, but it will only hold when it is really good. I care about GB and Alien. The Big Lebowski is a grey area, the pin looks beautiful but the movie and theme is not that epic for me. It has to be a theme you can connect to, it does not matter if that theme is 25+ years old. Bring out a good Jaws/predator/matrix/godfather pin and it will sell. I hope Alien will be a deeply immersive game where you will feel the cold of space. GB is really good in that way the soundbites and the playfield gadgets help you to get into the ghostbusters flow even after al those years. GoT could have been a great theme but the artwork and the pin just did not do it for me. So maybe Batman 66 will be great but it hasn't got me moving yet.

#1081 4 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

Everything you say is accurate, and your question is essentially rhetorical. Stern purposefully reduces distributor competition by setting the unadvertised minimum selling price, and gives distributors the flexibility to go up to MSRP when possible. In other words, MAP doesn't actually eliminate the need to shop around.

MAP stands for Minimum Advertised Price. Advertised. So then why can't disti's advertise their prices? Why can't we get an email or PM with pricing from a disti but instead have to call around? It's the age of the internet and Stern is forcing customers to call disti's to find the best prices when MAP is already in place. With other products where MAP exists, you can find disti's advertising (yes online) and competing on service, warranty, and other things to earn your business. Why the secret squirrel here if MAP is being enforced?

Quoted from Manimal:

Why not deal with anyone would charges more than minimum pricing? Because most distributors provide valuable services which cost money. Knowing my distrubutor will stand behind the sale and come to my rescue if needed, are worth a lot in my books. Just look at the GBLE thread and you can tell who bought from a no-service seller, vs a reputable dealer. For me it is a matter of trust, rather than dollars.

No argument here if that's your preference. Makes sense. Why is pricing such a secret then? If a disti is that good with service & warranty, let them advertise that with their price. $5K base game + $2K for service. Instead of car buying?

#1082 4 years ago

I am finally going to declare JJP a full fledged manufacturer. People that have said Stern has nothing to worry about are wrong. The last 3 pages of this Stern announcement have turned into much more of a discussion about JJP.

#1083 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

I don't want to get into the economics of the pinball biz but the Hobbit was a huge miss, they should have knocked the cover off the ball with that second title. Instead the produced an uninspiring game. Sure it has a deep rule set and that's great but JJP's second game should have shut out Stern completely. They dropped the ball on that opportunity and that's no lie.

Agreed.

TH puzzles me.

Beautiful game - check
Deep rule set - check
LCD screen - check
Price point - check (similar to WOZ and LE models)

So they got everything right, except for that people either don't think that the fun factor is high enough to justify the price tag, or they don't believe the game will hold its price. It's a shame really because JJP should be banging on the Stern doors being a serious competitor and I don't think they are at that point yet.

#1084 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I am finally going to declare JJP a full fledged manufacturer. People that have said Stern has nothing to worry about are wrong. The last 3 pages of this Stern announcement have turned into much more of a discussion about JJP.

Yeah but....

JJP = 2 games

Stern = 50 games

Quoted from Methos:

Agreed.
TH puzzles me.
Beautiful game - check
Deep rule set - check
Price point - check (similar to WOZ and LE models)j
So they got everything right, except for that people either don't think that the fun factor is high enough to justify the price tag, or they don't believe the game will hold the price. It's a shame really because JJP should be banging on the Stern doors being a serious competitor.

Maybe people aren't comfortable with JJP's past shenanigans & therefore reluctant to drop $8K

-------------------

I will say Keefer is my favorite programmer & TH's LCD is got dayum magnificent looking.

#1085 4 years ago

The consensus from casual players on TH that I've been able to gather is "they made a pinball out of what?" and "wait, it came out WHEN?"

#1086 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Because stern has the volume, capital and distribution that can afford to hold inventory

And they can absorb a flop.PBR doesn't seem to be selling,WWE(dud).Yet the doors are open and they are still making pins.

I can't see any of the "start ups" surviving multiple flops.

My crystal ball sez 2+years for JJP #3.The language of "pre-order" will be changed to "deposit"(see BM 66).

of course Im speculating like everyone else......but Ill go with what its been like rather then what it MIGHT be like.

#1087 4 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

So they got everything right, except for that people either don't think that the fun factor is high enough to justify the price tag, or they don't believe the game will hold its price

Quoted from PW79:

Maybe people aren't comfortable with JJP's past shenanigans & therefore reluctant to drop $8K

I think all of the above. Hard to buy a game when you have no clue if you'll get it this year, next year, or two years from now.

I will also add that I think Balcer missed on his design x2. If the play field shots were better this game would sell for all reasons listed. No offense to Balcer, but not a fan of his recent game designs. It always puzzles me why Jack went Balcer as his main designer when the free agent market talent was out there.

#1088 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I am finally going to declare JJP a full fledged manufacturer. People that have said Stern has nothing to worry about are wrong. The last 3 pages of this Stern announcement have turned into much more of a discussion about JJP.

Yeah but the previous 19 pages are all Stern. Only reason JJP is being mentioned now is because we've beat the BM66 speculation to death. Major props to JJP for being one of the few to carry the pinball torch but they have one hell of a mountain to climb if they're even gonna be a splinter in Stern's side. Who the hell wants to wait 2+ years for a game? Meantime Stern cranks out several licenses that people connect with more and end up cancelling their JJP order. When/if the bubble finally bursts Stern will still be the only one left.

#1089 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

MAP stands for Minimum Advertised Price. Advertised. So then why can't disti's advertise their prices? Why can't we get an email or PM with pricing from a disti but instead have to call around? It's the age of the internet and Stern is forcing customers to call disti's to find the best prices when MAP is already in place. With other products where MAP exists, you can find disti's advertising (yes online) and competing on service, warranty, and other things to earn your business. Why the secret squirrel here if MAP is being enforced?

No argument here if that's your preference. Makes sense. Why is pricing such a secret then? If a disti is that good with service & warranty, let them advertise that with their price. $5K base game + $2K for service. Instead of car buying?

Is that something enforced on this forum too? Can we not have a thread discussing which distributor is better on various things like price, service, warranty and other extras?

#1090 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

MAP stands for Minimum Advertised Price. Advertised. So then why can't disti's advertise their prices? Why can't we get an email or PM with pricing from a disti but instead have to call around? It's the age of the internet and Stern is forcing customers to call disti's to find the best prices when MAP is already in place. With other products where MAP exists, you can find disti's advertising (yes online) and competing on service, warranty, and other things to earn your business. Why the secret squirrel here if MAP is being enforced?

Because he used the wrong term. What stern recently changed was not MAP

Stern implemented map a long long time ago...w high is why distributors stopped posting prices and had to quote by direct contact. It's been that way for... 3-4? Years. What stern has forced on people now is minimum selling prices through some scheme. So shopping around for price alone doesn't do much and sellers are encouraged to add value in another way

-9
#1091 4 years ago

The Hobbit sucks, that is no secret. I wish it didn't. Such a huge miss there.

Can you imagine if Hobbit was a home run? I know I'd have one now. The theme and look of the game is outstanding, but it stops there.

JJP needs something new revealed at this point, as I don't see Hobbits flying off the shelf. There's already plenty used and even unopened LEs available at great prices.

#1092 4 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

And they can absorb a flop.PBR doesn't seem to be selling,WWE(dud).Yet the doors are open and they are still making pins.

PBR is a promotional reskin of a game that was already just a low cost niche experiment of sorts. It's served its purpose. WWE is a flop in more ways than one ...but yeah, when you've got 10 titles on the line and some are huge sellers - one poor seller doesn't break the bank.

Quoted from badbilly27:

It always puzzles me why Jack went Balcer as his main designer when the free agent market talent was out there.

Balcer made TSPP, and that was one of Stern's best selling games. Same reason he went with Hobbit - based on LOTR's success. Who could blame him? The problem IMO isn't Balcer so much, but the fact that he left before the game was complete. With all the time it took to get that game to market, what could that game have been like if Balcer had stayed and done more interesting things to the design before it shipped? Does JJP have any kind of in house design team or a lead like Stern has with Gomez? Is Lawlor an employee or a one-off freelance designer? With the amount of pinball design knowledge that Lawlor has, he really should be the "Gomez of JJP".

#1093 4 years ago
Quoted from turbo20lbs:

The Hobbit sucks, that is no secret. I wish it didn't. Such a huge miss there.
Can you imagine if Hobbit was a home run? I know I'd have one now. The theme and look of the game is outstanding, but it stops there.
JJP needs something new revealed at this point, as I don't see Hobbits flying off the shelf. There's already plenty used and even unopened LEs available at great prices.

You couldn't be more wrong.
I actually was very disappointed in the hobbit when I first played it in my distributors showroom.

But after playing it in Allentown a bunch. And now that my friend has one at his house. I realise that the one I initially played was set up completely wrong. It's not "sluggish" or "fl,oaty" as I first thought.
I honestly think that it plays amazing. It is fast, fun. And has tons to do do.
And now that I have had lots of plays on it.
IMHO it is actually one of the best games available at the moment.
And it's a top 10 game.

I hope Sterns Batman 66 is not a Hodge podge mess with so many designers and artist styles hands in the pot.

That's what turned me off on my Star Trek.
The code never felt like it was fluid.
It was like it was pieced together, and you can tell it was coded by different people at different times. It's good mind you, but does not feel consistent.

#1094 4 years ago

(Deleted) - Accurate but kind of a gossipy comment...

#1095 4 years ago

I think is was done ALL wrong!! Many years ago,before most of you were born,a Book came out called The Hobbit! All us hippys read it! Then,3 more stories from the same author came out!No title was LOTR! A nickname for the :triligy:Then they put out these themed pins in the wrong order!The Movies didn't help any either!Wrong order! So i think many of us were disconnected with the whole sham!!And i don't think any of those pin makers ever took the time to actually read the whole thing!Just like when Arnold claimed to love the Conan The Barbarian stories,then played the character,Conan,with LIGHT BROWN HAIR!! B.S.

#1096 4 years ago

Mr68 and I will tell you how B66 turns out!!

#1097 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Feels like an FU to buyers every step of the way. Net-net our prices went up by this move and we still have to "call around" in order to see who's closest to the floor pricing (feels like car buying). Really starting to turn me off how these pricing changes (and not sharing pricing info on Batman 66) don't reflect costs or improved products, but rather a money grab at the detriment of buyers. The crazy thing is, I don't see an end in sight because the community keeps buying at the higher prices.
Thank you mam may I have another? Anyone want to build a TrueCar service for the pinball hobby?

After the METLE debacle, they keep trying to find the "sweet spot" to take out all of the flipper profit.

I think we will see a move in the other direction pricing wise, the demand for $8k+ plus pins isn't endless.

The secondary market is starting to hit the brakes a bit on the higher priced pins.

People have been able to buy a pin and sell it for what they paid for it or more for the last 5 years, with the exception a few titles.

When the price tag jumps over $8k and people start having to take a $1k hit or more to sell a pin I'm thinking the demand is gonna slow down.

Either way, I agree Billy, just tell us what the F ing price is and quit playing games!!

#1098 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

When the price tag jumps over $8k and people start having to take a $1k hit or more to sell a pin I'm thinking the demand is gonna slow down.

Why should that matter?

You're not buying it for an investment.

#1099 4 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

Yeah but....
JJP = 2 games
Stern = 50 games

That is what I call Dominating a conversation!

-2
#1100 4 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

So they got everything right...

No. I don't think you need to look for "meta-reasons" like time-to-market or price stability (WTF does this have to do with pinball anyway???) to explain THs' mediocre success.

Beautiful game - check, but where is THE feature? You know, that one cool thing on the PF that makes the casual player go "I want to see that in action"...
Deep rule set - check, this is the one thing TH DOES have going on for it.
LCD screen - check, but so what, that's just deco. I couldn't care less for that attention consuming thing.
Price point - check (similar to WOZ and LE models), yes, but those are packed. THs' main playfield features are to subtle to have any wow-effect.

TH lacks in PF design due to it's history of being planned as a totally different pin - fast punchy battle zone in the upper half and aimed long shots from the lower half. Epic battles with Smaug where expected and a packed PF you enjoy exploring. Somewhere along the road they completely lost track, removed one flipper, left the other for no explainable reason and redesigned vital parts of the game multiple times until nothing was left from the original concept. Also we were all waiting for Smaug to "interact with the ball in 3 different ways" as Jack promised. What we got is Count Smaug who merely acts as a narrator of the action on the PF and does not interact with the ball in any way. Keith is going above and beyond to save it from a total disaster but the fact alone that even owners feel the need to "lay their trust in Keith to make this game work" speaks volumes about the game design.

TH is like an ugly compromise christmas tree that someone completely overloaded with decoration to make it look beautiful.

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