(Topic ID: 202227)

Basket-Case Demolition Man Restore - Help Needed!


By trueno92

1 year ago



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There are 61 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

#######################PROCEED WITH CAUTION############################
#
#......................... I am a pinside newb, and generally new to pinball machines
#......................... I have restored a few machines and have a decent technical background
#......................... There may be times in this thread where I will not use the correct
#......................... pinball terminology, describe stuff in a convoluted manner or use
#......................... pictures to show what im doing....
#......................... I'll probably ask for a lot of help, try to learn a lot, and even ask for
#......................... parts on occasion or direction to parts........
#......................... but for now, when I head down to my game room, its to work on this.........
#
##
#################YOUR PATIENCE IS APPRECIATED!!!!###########################

I am still new here and reading a lot but I wanted to x-post this from the Demoman Club since the owners there have probably never seen such a sad machine...

Background:
I have restored an EM Snow Derby with a lot of help from the EM guys, tuned up a Big Guns working really nice, smooth and fast and restored neglected Middle Earth, but this is my biggest challenge yet. An OP had this tucked away for about 5 years in a storage space and we decided to scoop it. Its going to need work but DMD machines up in Canada are $2.5k all day, so we got it at a bargain - Boards light but no one is home.

This is my first WPC based hardware machine and it’s a bit of a head scratcher… so if you guys can be patient with this formerly-routed machine, anything would help
Visual Inspection
1. Cabinet looks good/decent, just really dirty
2. Playfield is really nice, a few cracked plastics but everything appears to be there, just dirty.. ramps could use a good cleaning

Electronic Inspection
1. Game doesn’t boot
2. Initially, boards get power, everything including PF has the red LED,
3. No DMD
4. DMD Controller board is toast but still puts out -126v, -116v, 64v, 12.4v and 5v
5. Noticed there is a Peter Chou PSU inside the cab and it appears to be wired into the 5v section of the MPU board. The PSU has a Williams sticker on it.. is this supposed to be here?
6. Also in the bottom cab, there is a harness going from the transformer and is split with 2 molex connectors.. it looks like it should plug in to each other but the machine seems to work with it unplugged, is it some trouble shooting harness? there is nothing connected to these so they are left disconnected.. What is supposed to connect to this?

I played around with the additional Peter Chou PSU and after reading something about WPC, they need 5v to boot, and I did get the machine to boot!!'

GI lights solid and I have to press the coindoor service buttons to fumble my way past the system errors to get into attract mode. I think im there but the VUk seems to keep kicking every 12-15 seconds.. am I in some test mode? I'm blind without any displays...

1. No DMD
2. Game boots, there are sounds from the coin up and I can get into test mode, but its blind with no dmd
3. Attract mode works
4. Got 5 balls in the trough and credit-up, GAME STARTS!
5. All sounds work
6. MPU board along those 3 leds, the top one goes out and the 2nd one starts blinking like normal Williams games when in play. Anything else I should look at here?
Now the weirdness,
1. The game starts and the launch ball button doesn’t work – the right trigger launches the ball.
2. The ball will launch and a couple coils go off on impact,
3. Sometimes the right side VUK just goes off by itself and repeats after 15 seconds for a while , Sometimes the VUK going off kicks the game to reboot..
4. The right side kickback autofire thing went off for ball 2 and it looks like the power going to the coils ends up resetting the mpu and the game restarts back into attract mode, so the ball is in play, but and a coil reacts and gi lights go out and then come back in attract mode.
5. Coils don’t seem to hold
Uh.. I know this probably reads worse than it is, but I guess first is
1. What’s the loose harness for in the cab? It’s by the transformer, look like 9 pin square molex harnesses,
2. Uh, I have no idea if my dmd is really bad or not, but the DMD controller HV section looks rough.. I could retrace it, but it does get hot when the machine is on but still puts out -126v, -116v, 64v, 12.4v and 5v when tested at the DMD pins after the harness.

If you read this far, here are the pics of the finds!!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bxaUgpZPPaJE7yVm1

20171105_194633 (resized).jpg
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#2 1 year ago

Dmd voltages seem fine, I'd try another dmd.

Still need a picture of that harness in question.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Dmd voltages seem fine, I'd try another dmd.
Still need a picture of that harness in question.

Yes yes, I should get that to you,

Its weird, its like a 12 pin molex, totally stock and the female and male ends look like they connect to each other.. like some service connection.

oh and here is how filthy the machine is, this machine left my hands smelling like cigarettes and I washed this thing down wearing gloves.

Screenshot_20171108-062207 (resized).png

#4 1 year ago

My guess is it's the plug for the interlock. Iirc there's some other plug down there too that's plugged together that will also fit with them, and combining them can bypass the interlock, but it doesn't quite work right so it's just ignored

#5 1 year ago

I thought we were maybe getting a Basket Case pin, damn it.

Basket_Case_Belial (resized).jpg

#6 1 year ago

Interlock makes sense, cuz I can do most of what I think is normal operation with the coin door open.

I assume thate the interlock you mean?

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

Interlock makes sense, cuz I can do most of what I think is normal operation with the coin door open.
I assume thate the interlock you mean?

Yes. From what I remember the two sides of the interlock can be plugged into the wires coming from the transformer, or you can just plug the wires straight together to bypass the door interlock.

#8 1 year ago

Also, your VUK is kicking because it thinks there's a ball stuck in there. Disconnect the switch until you can see, and get more info on what's going on. It's probably just adjusted badly.

The VUK firing and resetting the game means your 5v is still too low. The game will boot, but it's very likely that when you try to play it, it will reset. You need to either rebuild your power board or get a kahr daughter board.

#9 1 year ago

update. OK still need pics of that harness - lighting isnt the best in there.

questions: is there any normal service outlet in this machine? I see a metal box bottom right but the socket on it is like the reverse of an ATX computer PSU.

1. noticed the left pop bumper has an issue, won't pull down all the way, need to get in there eventually

DMD investigation,

So the controller board is seriously... in rough shape, its only putting out -112, and -108 and thats only a 4v spread. does the dmd need exactly 12v between it to light?

I am trying to figure out which is the most cost effective way to go with

1. buy new DMD Controller, possibly buy new DMD
2. buy LED DMD

right now, I can consider the DMD controller board wall-art.... but i don't have a means to guarantee the dmd to be working...

ok sweet, someone just bumped the thread!

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from CadillacMusic:

Also, your VUK is kicking because it thinks there's a ball stuck in there. Disconnect the switch until you can see, and get more info on what's going on. It's probably just adjusted badly.
The VUK firing and resetting the game means your 5v is still too low. The game will boot, but it's very likely that when you try to play it, it will reset. You need to either rebuild your power board or get a kahr daughter board.

OK, thanks!!

I did check either side of the VUK Optics and it seems good, also it seems that in game it works fine, or it was.. I still need to see whats going on but right now this feels like working on a really complicated EM or early SS because I cannot see what warnings the machine is throwing at me...the dmd is out.

I replaced the 5v and the resets are gone. I also tested the old additional Peter Chou PSU in another unit and yeah, its presenting so much noise on the 5v line im glad i removed it when i did.

So the game boots and comes up with GI on hold on. If I press the left most button on the service panel, i get it to kick up some attract mode but its inturrupted with some 3 tone warning noise. If i press the vol - switch, attract mode will start again.

eventually i do this combination enough times that start will kick out a ball.

Now, on the first ball, the launch ball button will work. If it bounces around scores and then drains, the ball 2 comes up but it auto launches. The button is not held down and on the next coin up, ball 1 will work with the button.. but oddly the buttons behaviour appears to be stuck down, but its not..?

#11 1 year ago

An alarm went off when I saw post #3 - Your not washing down the play field with that bucket of water are you ???

#12 1 year ago

also, would the VUK be firing due to anything else in the subway/elevator being in the wrong position?

the elevator moves up, claw swings over, but i cannot get it to work in-game. The claw gate does move on the ball-hunt solinoid cycling. it could be off in the settings but i cannot confirm yet.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from TenaciousT:

An alarm went off when I saw post #3 - Your not washing down the play field with that bucket of water are you ???

that bucket of water was clear when i started!!

I was using a method of carefully wiping it down a towel at a time not letting the PF get soaked at all, don't want any planking, but yeah, it needed water to get all the filth and grime off of it. going to get it minty clean and then polish it up.

i used rubber gloves while cleaning it and my hands STILL HAD THE FUNK OF MUSTY CIGARETTES when i was done.

No worries, no harm was done.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from TenaciousT:

An alarm went off when I saw post #3 - Your not washing down the play field with that bucket of water are you ???

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe OP meant that HE is the basket case in this relationship

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from Boat:

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe OP meant that HE is the basket case in this relationship

hahah, no man, this PF was dirty, like dirt like you would not believe. i dried up any sitting water but yeah, trying to clean this without any liquid and you would just be rubbing the dirt into the PF

#16 1 year ago

That's fair, but honestly if you try Isopropyl alcohol or naptha, you will be very impressed with the results and it is way way safer.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Boat:

That's fair, but honestly if you try Isopropyl alcohol or naptha, you will be very impressed with the results and it is way way safer.

I added some alcohol to the mix. This was to get most of the grime off. I still need to do the alcohol wipe down for most of the stubborn areas, avoid the plastic etc..

Thanks for the heads up and going easy on me guys!!
Here is a pic of the before and mid clean....

Screenshot_20171109-112428 (resized).png

Screenshot_20171109-112441 (resized).png

-1
#18 1 year ago
Quoted from Boat:

That's fair, but honestly if you try Isopropyl alcohol or naptha, you will be very impressed with the results and it is way way safer.

Alcohol melts the clear, don't ever do that!

That three tone sound is probably the warning the coin door is open.

#19 1 year ago

I was really looking to avoid any alcohol for clear pastics and I have seen clouding caused by it..

But thanks for the tip!!

And yup mylar saved this pf, but its cut out around the inserts.. so the insert plastics are exposed and I don't want any solvents taking away the lettering with it!!

#20 1 year ago

Sounds like you might have some bad optic's not working, should check switch's

#21 1 year ago

I love projects like this...

#22 1 year ago

Led dmds are great mostly. No high voltage, no out gassing, but don't forget they need 5v.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Led dmds are great mostly. No high voltage, no out gassing, but don't forget they need 5v.

I'm on the hunt for one.

I have a dedicated 5v PSU to keep the MPU happy and it would be great to leverage a direct connection straight to a LED DMD.

If anyone has a used one for a project like this, it would really save me some time trying to figure out if I should:
1. get a dmd controller and take a gamble on my existing DMD
2. get a dmd controller to find out my DMD is shit and from what I understand, my chances of this are pretty high considering the state of the existing DMC Board....

I really don't feel like dishing out that much cash for 2 items when I could knock it down with a LED DMD..

Quoted from cosmokramer:

I love projects like this...

Yes, going to be quite the journey here..... and I am totally new to DMD and so far only my sys 11 was playable when I plugged it in, other machines were sorta like this but no where near as dirty!!

#24 1 year ago

If you look around a bit you can usually find a used led one for about the same price as a plasma

Is your 5v supply also supplying the dmd board?

Were your voltage measurements done with the dmd still plugged in?

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

If you look around a bit you can usually find a used led one for about the same price as a plasma
Is your 5v supply also supplying the dmd board?

Yes, the original 5v is clipped. So from the MPU onward, its my 5v is going to everything as a result the DMD board and its getting clean 5V.

I just watched a video about how there needs to be a clear 12v difference between the Anode at -120 to -108, and I know im only at a 4v difference....

I did the measurements for my voltages at the pins on the dmd display after the harness connection.

I don't mind spending ~$100 on a new board, I need a new one anyway, but I'd be a bit irked to find that my DMD is gassed anyway... doh!

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

Yes, the original 5v is clipped. So from the MPU onward, its my 5v is going to everything as a result the DMD board and its getting clean 5V.
I just watched a video about how there needs to be a clear 12v difference between the Anode at -120 to -108, and I know im only at a 4v difference....
I did the measurements for my voltages at the pins on the dmd display after the harness connection.
I don't mind spending ~$100 on a new board, I need a new one anyway, but I'd be a bit irked to find that my DMD is gassed anyway... doh!

The spread could be being affected by a bad dmd, if it is still plugged in. If you unplug the dmd and check, you should get around 20v spread.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The spread could be being affected by a bad dmd, if it is still plugged in. If you unplug the dmd and check, you should get around 20v spread.

Cool, ok that's a good suggestion.
I'll test without the dmd and see if its the display introducing resistance.

Cuz, I'm dealing with this.... see pic

On the plus side, no fires!

Screenshot_20171109-104837 (resized).png

#28 1 year ago

Looks like someone already rebuilt it!

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Looks like someone already rebuilt it!

I'm just surprised its putting out any voltages AT ALL.........

#31 1 year ago

Ok guys before I forget these numbers

@ dmd controller:
64v, 12v, 5v, -93v, -116v

@ dmd display

64v, 12v, 5v, -112v, -116v

So one side of the hv to the display now presents -10v increase at the display...

What does this mean?

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

Ok guys before I forget these numbers
@ dmd controller:
64v, 12v, 5v, -93v, -116v
@ dmd display
64v, 12v, 5v, -112v, -116v
So one side of the hv to the display now presents -10v increase at the display...
What does this mean?

Is this with the display unplugged?

#33 1 year ago

My bad, yes the measurements at the dmd controller were with the display unplugged.

Values at the display had it plugged in.

#34 1 year ago

Looks like -20v increase between plugged and unplugged.

Would like to know what factory values should be!

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

Looks like -20v increase between plugged and unplugged.
Would like to know what factory values should be!

a 20V difference unplugged is correct.

The official numbers with the display plugged in are
62V, 12V, 5V, 0V, -113V, -125V.

A slightly lower voltage for the 113 and 125 is fine, as long as the difference is the same.

My guess here would be that your controller is fine (at least the HV section), but your DMD is bad.

#36 1 year ago

Check this out

#37 1 year ago

Upon further inspection, the dmd is making a faint buzz noise when plugged in.

Also, my controller board has physically loose thru-hole components and I think I wouldn't trust a replacent dmd to be driven on this board....

I will try to get a replacement controller board and see if the dmd voltage difference changes as the numbers don't seem to make sense... to me anyway..

#38 1 year ago

Ok guys, taking it slow here.
So I think I kinda know what's happening with the boot up. It chimes only once - good sign!

I hit escape and it get into attrsct mode. The wanh-wanh-wanh noise is the coin door, but I still get voltages to the flippers so that seems ok.

After that I can press start and it Snipes say, "no free rides"

I can coin op, but then the game fires out all 5 balls, the elevator and arm swing and calibrate and the vuk will bang off if the elevator is in the up position... at least from what I can tell.

I took the sensors from the lower vuk and taped them together and is there any other way of testing these?

Plays full games and sounds like its starting modes and playing music, an accordion song at game over and will get back into attract no problem.

The harness goes directly to the Interlock switches and oddly don't seem to matter of its connected or disconnected.

Screenshot_20171112-132410 (resized).png
Screenshot_20171112-132406 (resized).png

I got some light reading material that was included with the cab...

Screenshot_20171112-133117 (resized).png

#39 1 year ago

So just a heads up to any Canadians giving this a read, Rob at Player1 Amusements: http://www.winwithp1ag.com/
has been really awesome in helping me figure out what direction to take and helping me order parts to get this going.
Looks like I'll be bringing back a few things to help the process of elimination:

1. RottenDog DMD Driver board - at least one known-good part in the equation can help my blind dmd situation.

2. Possible test dmd....

1 week later
#40 1 year ago

Thanks to user

Tomh52722, I now have a dmd!!

In fact, I have a Stern led dmd wired up to my wpc dcs demoman!!

** will have a short video diy ** as you can then pull F601 and F602 and effectively extend the life of your original dmd controller!!! How bad ass is that!!

Works beautifully!!

So now, I found most my switches are fine, a couple bad optos that I'll need to solder in, but look forward to pics of a pf tear down and a lot of washing!!

Screenshot_20171122-062811 (resized).png

Screenshot_20171122-073718 (resized).png

1 week later
#42 1 year ago

So in the last little bit:

Redid some opto transmitters, common stuff 5mm led size works.

Got the correct FL11629 COILS IN. This nails the ramps pretty easily and I can raise the table a little. Also swapped out the bat bushings and tuned the flippers a bit.

Fixed some switches.

Other than that, this dm is checking out mechanically. Now just waiting on bulbs to kick off the pf ramp teardown.

Cleaned up the mpu board under the battery holder and making some improvements here and there...

Screenshot_20171205-201656 (resized).png

Screenshot_20171205-201705 (resized).png

Screenshot_20171205-201729 (resized).png

Screenshot_20171205-201740 (resized).png

#43 1 year ago

Looks great! I would love to bring a machine back to life.

#44 1 year ago

Thanks guys, its making progress

I wanted to comb thru it mechanically before getting into any of the cosmetics and in the process I can see where any common failure points would be... the optos for the claw and the through boards need to be in check.

Funny stuff tho, my ball launch button was wired backwards and the wpc system seems to know to reverse the switch if its stuck on. After the first ball, the next balls would launch automatically when I would get to ball 2/3/4/5. ...
I thought it would be somethung more serious than a switch wired to the wrong nc terminal instead of no.
Op did it because the trough jam opto was out and the game would start ajd spit out all thr balls

Claw seems to be preserved and works but the ramps leading from it need adjustment. The ball gets hung up on the roll over switches..

Do both thumb buttons launch the ball? Or just the right side?

#45 1 year ago

Found a string of gi out. Was a bit tricky since almost all the gi bulbs are burnt out.
The bg string would not light and I traced a few pf bulb holders and sure enough one contact was bent over grounding the holder.

Various other bulb holders need cleaning.

Made a filter for my red stern led that cuts down on any glare off the pf glass. Monitor privacy filter turned 90 degrees.

To do:
Waiting on anti flicker leds to start ramp tear down.
Clean cars and road way
Clean plastics
Need to wire in a battery relocation holder.
Sponge for standing target
Rubber for kicker by pops
Pinguards or diy versions to hide some cab leg damage
I am waiting on some chrome wrap to wrap the handles - may also do legs - Red chrome!!

Screenshot_20171212-083835 (resized).png

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Screenshot_20171212-075616 (resized).png

Screenshot_20171212-075626 (resized).png

1 week later
#46 1 year ago

So demo man WAS WORKING 100%for about 6 hours...

Going back to it the next day it looks like I have a loose wire, molex or solder joint somewhere..

Its taking out my ball trough jam opto, my lower vuk and oddly, my claw is reporting magnet error.

I tested the magnet and its actually workijg fine when a ball is raised to it...

The optos go out when there is strong vibration on the pf.. like when the flippers are hitting the stops.. it sometikw comes back but does anyone know which board coukd be responsible for all 3 issues? I checmed the trough sender and receiver and they look fine. Also checked j209 on the mpu and that's good too.

Screenshot_20171219-074901 (resized).png

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Screenshot_20171212-075626 (resized).png

#47 1 year ago

Did you check the opto board?

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Did you check the opto board?

i checked the trough optos, but i attached a small pic of the board that i think could be the problem at j1...

#49 1 year ago
Quoted from trueno92:

i checked the trough optos, but i attached a small pic of the board that i think could be the problem at j1...

Any of the connectors on that could be the problem, can't hurt to reflow them all

#50 1 year ago

I will take a closer look at it tonight.

In other news I scored an led modded f14, flashers and all!

Screenshot_20171218-234556 (resized).png

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