(Topic ID: 291676)

Banning Pinball Museum to auction their collection

By Steve_in_Escalon

3 months ago


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    #1 3 months ago

    I checked and didn't see where this has been posted yet. It appears that the Banning Museum is trying to relocate to Palm Springs and would be open daily.

    https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2021/04/13/museum-pinball-banning-planning-move-palm-springs-desert-sun/7207069002/

    #2 3 months ago

    This is awesome news!! Not only for me whose family has a vacation home there that we visit 8-10 times a year, but for everyone. Palm Springs has plenty of visitors and an airport right there. While Banning was only a 15-20 minute drive from Palm Springs, it's location in the middle of nowhere had it only open rarely for special events.

    Can't wait for this move and regular access to this amazing collection!

    13
    #3 3 months ago

    There's more to it than has been made public, for various reasons. We at Indisc have been working with John on this for some time. We'll let you know when we have more to reveal. Also, last discussion of "open daily" was in-season only, i.e. not year-round, just the cooler half. But things are still a bit in flux. We're also working with his complete game list on which to include for the various Indisc events next time.

    FYI, the location is right across from the Palm Springs airport, though on the opposite side of the runway from the terminal, so it'd be a long walk-around. Still, it's within easy rideshare distance (5 miles / 10 minutes) of the airport, hotels and plenty of places to eat. Much nicer and larger building than the Banning one.

    Quick update, last night, the zoning board gave unanimous approval to the change (the building had been zoned industrial; they printed the Desert Sun newspaper there for decades). It's a GO!!

    #4 3 months ago

    Cool, it's a win-win for me. I usually do day trips for the events there, and the short drive a little further keeps that doable. Or, it's always fun to hang in PS for a few days. Being able to go and play pinball more often will be great. It's always so fun to go there.

    We do tend to do most of our PS trips in the "off" season, that is, summertime. There is a cadre of cheap ass Southern Californians who go there at that time so we can stay at fancy resorts and play fancy golf courses for way lower rates than they charge during winter. You do however, roast your ass off.

    1 month later
    #5 57 days ago

    I’m relocating out there, too… hope I can find techs who would work on my em machines and tune them up.

    2 weeks later
    #6 42 days ago

    So uh... problem

    https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/2021/06/20/pinball-museum-cancels-plan-move-banning-palm-springs/7758137002/

    The one thing tiltforums should be good for... and no talk about this?

    #7 42 days ago

    Just read this, very sad news.
    Glad I went in April.

    #8 41 days ago

    There's some urgent legwork going on now, multiple angles of attack (approaching possible sponsors, looking for alternate locations, etc.) No idea yet if anything will pan out. Stay tuned.

    #9 41 days ago

    We are hoping that this place can get a sponsor.

    #10 41 days ago

    I read the article to mean he has to sell off his excess games (In storage) if the move doesn't happen. Is this incorrect? Is he losing the current building and will have to sell them all if he doesn't move?

    #11 41 days ago

    Sounds like the best move would be to sell off duplicate/replaceable games to weather the additional buildout time for the new location.

    #12 41 days ago
    Quoted from Gizmonic:

    I read the article to mean he has to sell off his excess games (In storage) if the move doesn't happen. Is this incorrect? Is he losing the current building and will have to sell them all if he doesn't move?

    Bob reported on tiltforums that the current building is already sold... so status quo apparently isn't a viable option right now either. Somehow he painted himself into the corner and delays on finishing the building will make it unfeasible?

    If it's a money crunch... I dunno... maybe sell some assets (aka pinball machines) DURING THE HOTEST PINBALL MARKET EVER SEEN? seems like a no brainer doesn't it?

    #13 41 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    If it's a money crunch... I dunno... maybe sell some assets (aka pinball machines) DURING THE HOTEST PINBALL MARKET EVER SEEN? seems like a no brainer doesn't it?

    I don't know how you expect them to make do with only two Rescue 911s!!!

    In all seriousness, if one thing the past year has taught me is a what a pain in the ass maintaining a huge collection of pinball machines seems to be. After losing the PAPA collection this one going tits up would be a huge stake through the heart of the hobby...hope they can find a way out of what looks like a big mess currently.

    #14 41 days ago

    FYI

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    #15 40 days ago

    John corrected me, building was leased, not sold, but games still to be removed by October to accommodate new tenant as I understand it.

    #16 40 days ago

    dont overthink.
    for your consideration, here we have an excellent location where the MOP can start monetizing approximately 400 games from their collection. 9000 sq ft, already wired for gaming and ready to go.

    1610 E Tropicana Ave, Las Vegas, NV

    https://www.officespace.com/nv/las-vegas/2179869-1610-e-tropicana-ave

    this listing hasnt been updated since december 2020, but is the only one that actually listed a price, $1,500,000 at the time. with covid over and vegas fully reopened the price is assuredly higher, but lets work with this figure for shits and giggles.

    back in 2009, tim arnold paid $1.2M for the building and invested another 300K to bring the property up the code/new ac, so $1.5M total. the price the car wash guys were asking in the above outdated listing is the same price tim paid over 11 years ago. sounds like a steal of a deal.

    at 100% financing, the monthly payment on a 30yr $1.5M loan at commerical rates around 4% is $7,200, times 12 is $86,400 a year. the last full non-covid year at this location [2019] LVPCC grossed $1.2M, and with operating expenses of approx 10% of gross [$120,000], netted 1.08M. keep in mind that that was with arguably poorly maintained machines and treating their customers like well, how they treat them.

    continuing with this example, we will deduct another $86,400 for debt service on the $1.5M loan from the $1.08M profit from operations and MOP could net close to $1M. even projecting lowered revenues due to the competition provided by the PHOF, they should easily profit bigly given their expenses and debt service here. paying only 1/6th the price that tim arnold paid for his $10M 'taj mahal of pinball' would be a big advantage for them. they could also explore offering food and drink on site as a profit center, something tim has said he wants no part of.

    tim has blazed the trail for others to follow his non profit business model. they do not have to pay income taxes, property taxes, or machine permits. they dont pay volunteers. they get a reduction on their electric bills. owners of machines who donate use of their collection get a place to store their games while they are generating revenues and the business covers the insurance and maintenance costs for their games. sweet. tim is also on record stating that vegas welcomes arcades with open arms.

    two pinball locations of this size can easily co-exist in a tourist town such as las vegas. back in the 80s we used to do the rounds of several hangouts on any given night. any pinhead visiting LV is certainly going to hit up both and with successful promotion MOP will still get tourist visits despite being off the strip.

    and dont forget a neon cowboy sign.
    vegas cowboy (resized).jpg

    #17 40 days ago

    Still hoping for a Coachella museum location.

    #18 40 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    In all seriousness, if one thing the past year has taught me is a what a pain in the ass maintaining a huge collection of pinball machines seems to be.

    Amen! The Hall of Fame, PAPA, Museum of Pinball, Pacific Pinball Museum, etc. have all had difficulties.

    #19 40 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    After losing the PAPA collection this one going tits up would be a huge stake through the heart of the hobby...hope they can find a way out of what looks like a big mess currently.

    I'm not sure it's like that exactly. More like a stake through the heart of having a massive, all encompassing collection of games. The "hobby" if anything, is expanding exponentially. Every day it seems like another home collector or public arcade is entering the market and fighting tooth and nail for every last WPC title or classic Bally that's not $9000.

    #20 40 days ago
    Quoted from jay:

    I'm not sure it's like that exactly. More like a stake through the heart of having a massive, all encompassing collection of games. The "hobby" if anything, is expanding exponentially. Every day it seems like another home collector or public arcade is entering the market and fighting tooth and nail for every last WPC title or classic Bally that's not $9000.

    Yeah, I was being a drama queen...but it would still be bad.

    Tons of people are getting exposed to these games in the large locations and deciding they want in. That would definitely affect some of that.

    And then...the bubble would burst?!?!

    #21 39 days ago

    We are focused on overcoming the unforeseen increase in TI prices, delays caused by permitting, and many other moving parts and variables by:
    (in order of priority)

    1. Finding a major sponsor to assist with relocation to the old Desert Sun Newspaper building (~77,000 usable sqft)
    2. Find an alternate location for MOP to operate.
    3. A location to store the games until the dust settles and things change.
    4. Sell the entire collection to a single entity who would maintain the Museum of Pinball.

    Facts. Current location is 44,000 sqft with 1200+ games on free play. We have another 1000 games in storage. Total of ~2200. There are about 780 pins and 1420 vids. We own nearly every pinball machine ever made (post wood rails). We know which pins we don't have. We have all Stern LEs, we have every JJP, every Spooky, every American, etc. We have Magic Girl and Big Bang Bar, for example. The video game collection is larger and more unique. The current location can no longer accommodate the quantity of games. The Museum of Pinball Board of Directors are considering the above priorities on a daily bases. The logistics of managing, relocating, storing, selling, etc. such a large collection is a difficult and challenging task. The currently building is owned by the MOP entity and is not being sold, its being leased to a new entity. The MOP has too many games to be on coin drop. We have about 2 months to be out of the current location in Banning, CA.

    If you know someone/entity who can help with items 1, 2, 3 or 4 please PM me. Serious enquires only. Thanks.

    Chuck Casey
    Curator - The Museum of Pinball

    p.s. On behalf of the staff and Board of Directors of the Museum of Pinball, thank you to all our past and present volunteers and supporters of the Museum of Pinball. Thank you to all our past guests and patrons. I hope to see everyone in the future.

    20746206_1638977746177199_2733734330073340518_o (resized).jpgIMG_0650 (resized).JPGimage0a (resized).jpg
    #22 39 days ago

    Malls have seemed to be open to creative temporary uses of spaces lately… and their situation is not improving. Hopefully you all can find an affordable temporary solution while you figure out how to get the new space usable.

    Kinda interested how the existing plan was supposed to work? You are supposed to be out if the building in two months… so obviously that date had to be set long before you had the approvals for the new building. How long was the original plan to get the new building to the point it could be storage? (Since you painted yourself in a corner with a fixed moveout date)

    #23 39 days ago
    Quoted from chuckcasey:

    We are focused on overcoming the unforeseen increase in TI prices, delays caused by permitting, and many other moving parts and variables by:
    (in order of priority)
    1. Finding a major sponsor to assist with relocation to the old Desert Sun Newspaper building (~77,000 usable sqft)
    2. Find an alternate location for MOP to operate.
    3. A location to store the games until the dust settles and things change.
    4. Sell the entire collection to a single entity who would maintain the Museum of Pinball.
    Facts. Current location is 44,000 sqft with 1200+ games on free play. We have another 1000 games in storage. Total of ~2200. There are about 780 pins and 1420 vids. We own nearly every pinball machine ever made (post wood rails). We know which pins we don't have. We have all Stern LEs, we have every JJP, every Spooky, every American, etc. We have Magic Girl and Big Bang Bar, for example. The video game collection is larger and more unique. The current location can no longer accommodate the quantity of games. The Museum of Pinball Board of Directors are considering the above priorities on a daily bases. The logistics of managing, relocating, storing, selling, etc. such a large collection is a difficult and challenging task. The currently building is owned by the MOP entity and is not being sold, its being leased to a new entity. The MOP has too many games to be on coin drop. We have about 2 months to be out of the current location in Banning, CA.
    If you know someone/entity who can help with items 1, 2, 3 or 4 please PM me. Serious enquires only. Thanks.
    Chuck Casey
    Curator - The Museum of Pinball
    p.s. On behalf of the staff and Board of Directors of the Museum of Pinball, thank you to all our past and present volunteers and supporters of the Museum of Pinball. Thank you to all our past guests and patrons. I hope to see everyone in the future.
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    So two months left for a so far unknown angel investor, sponsor, or benefactor to swoop in with millions of dollars and save the show?

    Ok who’s gonna step up here?

    #24 39 days ago
    Quoted from chuckcasey:

    We are focused on overcoming the unforeseen increase in TI prices, delays caused by permitting, and many other moving parts and variables by:
    (in order of priority)
    1. Finding a major sponsor to assist with relocation to the old Desert Sun Newspaper building (~77,000 usable sqft)
    2. Find an alternate location for MOP to operate.
    3. A location to store the games until the dust settles and things change.
    4. Sell the entire collection to a single entity who would maintain the Museum of Pinball.
    We have about 2 months to be out of the current location in Banning, CA.
    If you know someone/entity who can help with items 1, 2, 3 or 4 please PM me. Serious enquires only. Thanks.
    Chuck Casey
    Curator - The Museum of Pinball

    Correct me if I am wrong... MOP owns the current location and has leased it out.
    And now they have nowhere to go and are seeking a benefactor ... to provide them with a new location.

    Sounds like a plan to me
    And what do they mean by " TI " prices ??

    #25 39 days ago
    Quoted from bob_e:

    Correct me if I am wrong... MOP owns the current location and has leased it out.
    And now they have nowhere to go and are seeking a benefactor ... to provide them with a new location.
    Sounds like a plan to me
    And what do they mean by " TI " prices ??

    TI generally is used as an acronym for “tenant improvements”. I.E. the tear down, remodel, rezoning, build out etc of a new location.

    #26 39 days ago

    Re TI, California is arguably the worst state for making changes to a property, whether commercial or residential. The impact statements, the environmental, safety and public works constraints, the permits and slow processes, and the expense make getting things done a royal PITA. We (not MoP or Indisc) are working on something on the residential side that would be 3-6 months in some states and might be 2 years and 5 times the cost here. A lot of that is new regs and such in the past 2-3 years. Not quite the Vogons, but working on it.

    #27 39 days ago
    Quoted from bobmathuse:

    Re TI, California is arguably the worst state for making changes to a property, whether commercial or residential. The impact statements, the environmental, safety and public works constraints, the permits and slow processes, and the expense make getting things done a royal PITA. We (not MoP or Indisc) are working on something on the residential side that would be 3-6 months in some states and might be 2 years and 5 times the cost here. A lot of that is new regs and such in the past 2-3 years. Not quite the Vogons, but working on it.

    And they are just finding that out now? AFTER they already committed their home space to someone else? Does not compute

    There has to be more to the story that isn't being shared...

    #28 39 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    And they are just finding that out now?

    I'm quite sure they're fully aware of that and knew it going in. Just pointing out that changes here don't always go smoothly.

    #31 35 days ago

    Has that been posted in the 4:20 thread?

    #32 35 days ago

    In all fairness, like most articles, that’s only one side of the story.

    #33 35 days ago

    I don't understand what 'one side'? This is not 'news' beyond the point of knowing who the new tenant will be. The fact there was a new tenant already on the books was prior knowledge.

    We already knew Weeks had leased the building out - this just tells us who those people are. Doesn't really change anything about the main narrative.

    It would be interesting if the lease start was something that was pushed to be earlier by the new tenants than Weeks wanted... but beyond that, the bulk of the story still seems to be on Week's choices. Was getting out of banning for MoP a financial squeeze happening, or maybe just wanting to break out of the constraints they had there and a horrible sequence of bad events made that move become a crisis? Or did they just fumble the move plan and paint themselves in a corner?

    I still think there is a lot of motivations not being said here.

    #34 35 days ago

    Weed makes more profit than pinball

    #35 34 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    I don't understand what 'one side'? This is not 'news' beyond the point of knowing who the new tenant will be. The fact there was a new tenant already on the books was prior knowledge.

    Exactly. It only talks about them leaving…not where they are going or their future plans. So when they say “game over” it makes it seem like it’s all dissolving away when it might not.

    #36 34 days ago
    Quoted from bob_e:

    Weed makes more profit than pinball

    Even simpler... a tenant paying rent makes it easier to pay mortgage than an arcade sitting idle.

    #37 33 days ago

    Museum of Pinball update.

    We are seeking all solutions to relocate the collection of 2200 games.

    We are planning to move to a Palm Springs location near the airport. The current 44,000 sqft building was leased to a new company who is scheduled to move in Q4 of this year.

    The Palm Springs building, 97,000 sqft, has proven challenging with many hurdles and complications.

    A major sponsor is need, or a person/entity to purchase and manage the assets/liabilities, a different new location with less challenges, a super large temporary storage facility or at last resort, sell the collection to one or more individuals.

    We have NOT given up but deadlines are quickly approaching. Please remember how HUGE this collection has become. 2200 games is NOT an easy to relocate and manage. We're willing to move local, distant and even out of state.

    PM me with serious ideas or leads.

    Chuck Casey - Curator Museum of Pinball.

    If you haven't been to the MOP, we have nearly every pin ever made. We have all Stern LEs, all JJPs, all Spookies, all American, Pinside top 100, etc. We have Magic Girl, Big Bang Bar and many other hard to find pins.

    13
    #38 33 days ago
    Quoted from chuckcasey:

    Museum of Pinball update.
    We are seeking all solutions to relocate the collection of 2200 games.
    We are planning to move to a Palm Springs location near the airport. The current 44,000 sqft building was leased to a new company who is scheduled to move in Q4 of this year.
    The Palm Springs building, 97,000 sqft, has proven challenging with many hurdles and complications.
    A major sponsor is need, or a person/entity to purchase and manage the assets/liabilities, a different new location with less challenges, a super large temporary storage facility or at last resort, sell the collection to one or more individuals.
    We have NOT given up but deadlines are quickly approaching. Please remember how HUGE this collection has become. 2200 games is NOT an easy to relocate and manage. We're willing to move local, distant and even out of state.
    PM me with serious ideas or leads.
    Chuck Casey - Curator Museum of Pinball.
    If you haven't been to the MOP, we have nearly every pin ever made. We have all Stern LEs, all JJPs, all Spookies, all American, Pinside top 100, etc. We have Magic Girl, Big Bang Bar and many other hard to find pins.

    You seem to have one choice now. Sell enough games to pull in $1,000,000 in cash (that's 200 pins at $5,000 average cost....... easily doable given how much your collection has appreciated). And then find the cheapest storage you can find. The million you pull in can last you a year at prime los angeles storage rates, I'm sure you can get multiple years elsewhere. I'm a CFO of an architecture company, getting through permitting in CA is a nightmare as I'm sure you've discovered getting to this point. You can't rely on that, you need to find the cheapest storage you can and if you're outta cash you need to sell off some of your collection. Rebuild your business soundly and you can always buy the machines back. Love the Museum, hope you make it.

    When Tim posted his gofundme he did seem like he had a concrete plan, he discussed costs openly, and the community responded. I had plenty of questions , but it at least seemed like he was being fairly transparent.

    If you got yourself in this mess it seems like its lack of leadership/planning. No need to buy 2,200 games unless you got a couple years of storage in reserves. 1900 games would have been fine. First things first, pick someone to run your organization and give it confidence, then that will drive the fundraising.

    -3
    #40 33 days ago
    Quoted from palmab03:

    You seem to have one choice now. Sell enough games to pull in $1,000,000 in cash (that's 200 pins at $5,000 average cost....... easily doable given how much your collection has appreciated). And then find the cheapest storage you can find. The million you pull in can last you a year at prime los angeles storage rates, I'm sure you can get multiple years elsewhere. I'm a CFO of an architecture company, getting through permitting in CA is a nightmare as I'm sure you've discovered getting to this point. You can't rely on that, you need to find the cheapest storage you can and if you're outta cash you need to sell off some of your collection. Rebuild your business soundly and you can always buy the machines back. Love the Museum, hope you make it.
    When Tim posted his gofundme he did seem like he had a concrete plan, he discussed costs openly, and the community responded. I had plenty of questions , but it at least seemed like he was being fairly transparent.
    If you got yourself in this mess it seems like its lack of leadership/planning. No need to buy 2,200 games unless you got a couple years of storage in reserves. 1900 games would have been fine. First things first, pick someone to run your organization and give it confidence, then that will drive the fundraising.

    Seems like you have it figured out. Thanks.

    #41 33 days ago
    Quoted from palmab03:

    If you got yourself in this mess it seems like its lack of leadership/planning. No need to buy 2,200 games unless you got a couple years of storage in reserves. 1900 games would have been fine. First things first, pick someone to run your organization and give it confidence, then that will drive the fundraising.

    I've gone to the museum about 3 times and talked with techs behind the scenes who keep the games running. Leadership and planning is not the owner's strong suit it seems. From lack of communication about when public events are taking place, to having techs supply parts out of pocket, to having pretty much *one* guy keep the entire arcade side going. Last I heard the tech I was talking to was telling me they were getting more games and this was about 3 months ago, when the real possibility of moving had to be on the owner's mind.

    #42 33 days ago
    Quoted from chuckcasey:

    Seems like you have it figured out. Thanks.

    This response makes it sound like you don’t want ideas. I mean, I don’t think I’d want ideas either. Probably plenty of ideas floating around. It sounds like what you need but are kind of hinting at instead of explicitly asking for is someone with lots of cash to take over ownership, plan and execute a move to storage, find a new location, and then plan and execute the move.

    #43 33 days ago

    What I’d be curious about is how much it would cost to just move all this and how many 53’ trucks would be needed. I don’t know how PHOF did it but they had time (sort of) and distance on their side.

    #44 33 days ago
    Quoted from Knxwledge:

    I've gone to the museum about 3 times and talked with techs behind the scenes who keep the games running. Leadership and planning is not the owner's strong suit it seems. From lack of communication about when public events are taking place, to having techs supply parts out of pocket, to having pretty much *one* guy keep the entire arcade side going. Last I heard the tech I was talking to was telling me they were getting more games and this was about 3 months ago, when the real possibility of moving had to be on the owner's mind.

    As someone who has been tech-ing at MOP for 6 years, I can say there are a lot if un-truths in this statement....

    #45 33 days ago

    The pins are only a third of the total games, and of the pins I'd estimate only a third would be difficult to replace. At minimum, I'd hope those pins could be kept together, as a foundation to build on when a new location becomes viable. And that would be a lot less storage to find.

    #46 33 days ago
    Quoted from chuckcasey:

    Seems like you have it figured out. Thanks.

    Or you aren’t telling the full story… and the problem isn’t a short term move timeline crunch but some much bigger like actual sustainability concerns or something else.

    From the outside, it sure looks like someone with a lot of assets, facing short term issues but shopping only for angel bailouts

    #47 33 days ago
    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    As someone who has been tech-ing at MOP for 6 years, I can say there are a lot if un-truths in this statement....

    Feel free to correct me. I tried to volunteer but scheduling on their part didn't work out. You would know better than I would.

    15
    #48 32 days ago

    I find it weird the number of posts and threads where people are essentially asking for money in a hobby where low-end games go for $2500 and there are posts asking six figures for rare games. SELL YOUR SHIT, people. Don't ask for handouts when you have easily liquidated assets that are nothing but pure luxury items.

    #49 32 days ago
    Quoted from robotron911:

    I find it weird the number of posts and threads where people are essentially asking for money in a hobby where low-end games go for $2500 and there are posts asking six figures for rare games. SELL YOUR SHIT, people. Don't ask for handouts when you have easily liquidated assets that are nothing buy pure luxury items.

    But that would be a realistic solution, and the museum owner(s) clearly wants to live in a fantasy land where someone with lots and lots of money or space will swoop in and save them. There have got to be duplicates of games on the museum floor in their storage (projects, parts machines, etc), I'm sure they could make a good chunk of change offloading just those. Then sell games that are worth a lot but relatively easy to purchase again (keep games like Big Bang Bar, sell games like TZ, for example).

    We're being very critical but it's because we care, and we want this place to thrive. I love the museum, and went as often as I could when it was open. I'm not trying to just being a hater

    #50 32 days ago
    Quoted from chuckcasey:

    Seems like you have it figured out. Thanks.

    The guy actually provided solid advice. That being nobody knows if you have the working capital to execute on plan A or B or C? I think his general point was if u don't have the working capital than sell off a few games, raise the $ to buy u time....clearly this is a herculean task that requires planning.

    There are 423 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 9.

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