You need some Anghelo/Ourseler in your collection.

What.....no more Ritchie's?

I have owned machines from 9 manufactures. I can attest that every single company made both great games AND terrible games.

I would consider modern Solid State pinball to have 10 main manufacturers: Gottlieb, B+W, Bally, Williams, Classic Stern, Data East, Sega, Modern Stern, Alvin G. and JJP.

Again, they all made great games and bad games. The main problem I have with games like TZ and LOTR, is that I see and play them every-fraggin-where! Shows, collections, even modern Sterns on route... They all seem so tired.

I think that those two I singled out above ARE still great games. But after you play them 1000's of times, you just need something else, while not compromising on design and fun.

I really believe AC/DC, LOTR, TSPP, IM, MET., Spiderman, and TRON all have something to offer that ANY game that came before them could never offer. The problem is, some of those are already becoming "classics" (in my eyes at least), right up there with the 90's classics. They are all becoming fun, and highly desirable machines. I am starting to see the same trend all over again and that really limits what I'm willing to spend some serious $ on.

Stern is great at what it does. I bought the pin I think they did the best on, and feel like I have a pretty good representation of their work over the past 5 years in this one machine.

Variety is where it's at. It's all pinball!

You forgot Capcom. One of the better built machines I have is Breakshot. I'm all for variety myself, and there is no way I would get rid of my older games to buy all new ones.

Yeah, honestly JJP, Alvin G, and Capcom all appeal to buyers in a niche market.

Read that a couple times. It gets funnier every time.

Unintended LOLZ.

I think one thing the WMS games have over Stern even now is polish.

For example, on my TRON:LE I didn't figure out the way to finish Light Cycle Multiball for the longest time because the playfield lamps don't really communicate as well as, say, AFM about what you're supposed to do. The DMD has a tiny little font saying what to do but the flashing inserts - with their somewhat blurry art - don't change enough to make it obvious.

That kind of thing is corrected when you have more time to polish the game up before releasing it.

Now in terms of current Sterns, they are really blowing away WMS games with their LED lighting. I played a friend's ST:LE and the light show on that is spectacular. And it's nice to see they've moved away from the crappy 4-colour screen grabs to "animated" DMD graphics, although I still find their DMD designs a bit too bland and mostly the same from game to game. I think that's a polish issue as well - not enough time to really tune it up.

I also prefer the two coil WMS flippers to the single coil Sterns but that's subjective.

Until Stern improves the "polish" I see JJP taking the lead by game #3 on quality, although I still hate the 4-colour artwork on the playfields, etc. Looks cheap to me.

Nothing against Stern (they are keeping the hobby alive), I have a few myself, but I don't feel any of their games have brought anything new to the table that hasn't already been done better by B/W years beforehand.

That and there is a very cheap feeling to a majority of them, especially 2010 onward. It seems that a single target or bash toy and a magnet or two is all that is needed to keep people coming back for more. Compared to the much more innovative and complex toys/mechanisms on older B/W or DE/Sega games from the past, it is hard to look at them as anything but a downgrade from the 1990s.

A few exclusions like Metallica and TSPP aside, the lack of original artwork for the games really puts me off as well.

Stern
/stərn/

noun

1. Company that is too cheap to have a Pinball machine with subways or multi levels

2. Company failing to innovate pinball.

3. Company that seriously cant figure out how to fade its LED's.. seriously WTF with this.

That being said I really like Metallica. And at least they are making machines. But I prefer WMS/Bally.

That is totally up to the designers.

A subway is not an expensive feature by any stretch of the imagination.

I would guess they have some restrictions set up. At least for me a subway adds so much. Especially for new players.. Having that magic of the ball going in one place and coming out of another is just awesome.

You will get that with Big Juicy Mellons next year.

I prefer every Stern I have owned over every B/W game I have ever owned, however It would take more than one Stern to let my WOZLE go, if I do..... Unless they put out a game I feel is worth it.

The majority of my games are 1990+ B/W. My first Stern was FGY, which I bought because Stern was the only game in town, I wanted a newer game and I loved the humor. To this day I think FGY is one of the best Sterns (IMHO) produced. I now have three other, newer Stern games. In general, I think the Stern machines just don't feel as solid as B/W machine. It's really subjective, but there is a difference in feel. I would not hesitate the buy another Stern, but in the big scheme of things, if were forced to get rid of all my games, one of the B/Ws would be the last to go.

I agree that the "feel" of B/W is better, but the rules are more important IMHO, and Stern rules are typically less linear.

Could not disagree more. They have brought a lot in with even very small commonly overlooked gameplay elements (LOTR with combo shot progression). I really appreciate the fact that multi balls can be strategically extended in much more complex ways (most recent Sterns specifically). Building up jackpot features, add-a-ball during multi balls, and adding a variety of scoring strategies to Stern games is currently pushing them far beyond anything B/W ever considered.

On nearly every single B/W, you just go for multi-ball and collect single jackpots at a set (or multiplied) value. Most of them are very lopsided that way... The polish on the B/W rules are just not there. I appreciate what Stern is trying to do in this regard.

As far as feeling cheap. That is certainly a very valid point, especially on artwork and clear coat on most of the 2000-2007 machines. I would not enjoy the alternative much though (that is, even more expensive pinball games or no pinball games at all). I really did not feel this strongly about it until the last 5 years. Stern has made some great games, I just wish that they would wait until they are completely done (code) to sell them to customers.

I have gone back and forth from Bally/Williams to Moderns and all I can say is there was something magical going on in the 1990's. Was something in the water? Especially 1993-Holy Sh**! I have learned not to drink the Kool-Aid and go with themes that are fun to play with lots going on. Williams IJ, STTNG and NGG have so much going on-its ridiculous. Some of the recent releases have seemed like cookie-cutter bash games with a hefty price tag. I often play my Barb Wire and think wow solid as all get up and fun-what a bang for your buck. Then I play ST LE and think wow-this is the best Stern ever made and it is truly a modern day work of art. Nowadays it is really hit and miss with new titles compared to some of the classics.

Lemme get this straight:

You guys are saying that some people prefer the simplicity of the older Williams titles and some people prefer the depth of the newer Stern titles????

Aren't we all supposed to like the same things?

I think the best games rules-wise were made from 88-93. That was pinball perfection. I also have games from 65-87 and 95-2013 which I think are great...

I have owned games from many different manufacturers. Currently I have games from B/W, Stern, Gottlieb, Alvin G, Data East, Bally and Spooky. I still think B/W games are overall the best. Sure, they made plenty of duds too, but each game has it's own character and their toys are much more clever and elaborate than anything being put out now.

I have come to appreciate some of Stern's recent hits and I like to play them just as much, but I'm not yet convinced that they are better. If anything, I think it's just that I've played most 90's titles about 1000 times, so anything newer *should* feel fresh and exciting. If the roles were reversed and people had been playing IM, Met, Tron, etc for over a decade and then TZ, MB and MM came out for the first time in 2014, which games do you think people would be more excited to play?

I think the fact that this debate even exists shows that pinball has not evolved as it should since Williams closed. Newer games should be undeniably better.

I remember playing Pinbot in the local arcade and coming in one day to see that it had been replaced by Funhouse. When Funhouse was new it just looked amazing. Now, I love Pinbot, it's arguably my favourite game, and I was devastated when it disappeared from the arcade. However, when I saw Funhouse there, brand new and all lit up, I could see that it was clearly more advanced and I would have to say a better game, night and day really.

Until something comes out that is so obviously better that it totally blows our minds this debate will continue. However, I think that is just around the corner...

The Wizard of Oz was close but it seemed to miss the mark slightly in terms of gameplay for everyone to agree that, yes, this is the step forward that we have been waiting for. I'm hoping that The Big Lebowski, the P3 or Alien can be that game that moves this great pastime forward.

The fact is pinball buyers have not evolved. Back before Williams stopped making pinball machines most games were to be put on route and featured mostly current and original themes that the general public could relate to and enjoy. Now manufacturers are mostly catering to rich aging men trying to buy back some lost part of their youth.

o-din is wise.

I hope more people continue to follow in your footsteps and change their tune over to Sterns so that way more WMS/Bally machines will be available for us.

I like the game play of several Sterns but am disappointed by some of the quality issues I see in recent years with many of their games. In just one example, in comparing the modern Stern Star Trek to the B/W ST:TNG, the Stern games seems to me cheaper in build quality including the cabinet, lamp sockets, and other areas. I realize ST:TNG is far from the most easy game to have working 100% but still feels overall for a 20 year game to have some quality build. I wonder what some of the modern Sterns will be like in 20 years? I like the depth of the game rules of many Sterns, but no one am I ready to stop buying B/W games especially with NIB prices of pins being so darn expensive.
All of that and I do like several DE, Sega, and Stern games. Love WOZ and many B/W and even Gottlieb's DMD. Not sure if any games were more solidly built than Gottlieb's EM games.

Seems like we are transitioning from B/W snobs to Stern snobs. Even the cookie cutter collections are going from all B/W titles to all Stern titles. Perhaps because they are more readily accessible.

Every manufacturer made great games and they made crappy games too. Although I have mostly B/W games I like to spread the love around.

Bally (SS and DMD)
Williams (EM and DMD)
Gottlieb (EM)
Game Plan (SS)
Stern (SS and DMD)
Zaccaria (SS)
Chicago Coin (EM)
Data East (DMD)

Welcome to the club. You're slightly behind the curve.
If you look at "my collection", you'll see the whole list of 90's B/W games in the owned in past.
JD is all that's left.
They were fun but modern rules for the most part are deeper and more interesting to me.

IMO, the deeper rules are so much like chopping wood. It's OK for a game or two, but I'd hate it for a whole collection.

I like most pinball. I just can't stock parts for every era of every maker.

Yes I have a good deal of "cookie cutter" Bly/Wms but that's not all I have. I have 4 Stern machines right now but have had many others in the past. I started with 70's/80's machines.

What I see are people who got into the hobby after the prices of the 90's machines went through the roof. You guys missed the days of fixing up a cheap System-11 (like a $750 Taxi) to make money for a "newer" game like a $1,200 WH2O.

You got to play all kinds of games and learn how to work on them. Now the hobby is writing a check for $6K-$8K and gluing toys to them. Most people don't know how to trace and issue and pick up a soldering iron so the thought of an old game that "will" have issues scares them.

There are multiple types of people. Players, collectors, restorers. . . Some people are jumping on the new while others are working there way backwards finding the love of the old games. Its all good.

With all this recent desire for outdated themes on new machines, I'd rather be drunk.

You do realize that the same company that made the Williams, Bally, and Gotllieb cabinets still makes the Stern cabinets today?

And you never see a Stern cabinet with shitty brick patterned scrap wood bottoms like you did Williams....

I'd rather be drunk right now regardless.

Just to clarify, just original Williams did that. Never saw a WMS game like that.

What about Ironman VE? I played my buddies LOTR then went home and played IM and it feels like a cheap piece of crap compared to LOTR.

I much prefer Stern pins but I would agree. Played IMVE at the distributors and thought that the slings seemed very cheap somehow. Can't put my finger on it, but it really took the excitement out of IM for me.

What makes a pin better or innovative? Innovation means changes like what was done in pinball2000 games. Change is not always a good thing. It was easier for BW back in the day when pinball was at its peak and the produced many games. If one game didn't sell well, it wasn't such a big deal. Stern cannot take such risks and must be something right by surviving well after BW folded. I don't like all their new games but some are a ton of fun and look great. I would call those better games because they are more fun to play than most old pins. The new upstarts may be more innovative but I don't know how many people will buy $9k+ pinball machines.