I don't own any zipper flipper Bally's yet but that lower playfield is very interesting. It's the closest thing I've seen to the William's Olympic Hockey table design. It's very well implemented on the Hockey pin and had wondered if it had been used elsewhere. Didn't expect to see it on the Bally.

https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/olympic-hockey

My first pin was a Bally Space Time 10 years ago, had moved it along as we do in this hobby. Recently got a Time Zone and forgot what a silly blast this thing is to play. The pops are just off the charts at 50V but I had forgotten how poor the flippers were compared to Gottlieb's for example.

Does the 2" zipper flipper assembly have better strength and control than the early 3" Bally design? Would love to try a zipper one day.

I’ll give it a shot.
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Killer Bally collection!

Completing some paint touch ups as well.

IMG_9055 (resized).jpeg

I've been lusting after a Rocket III recently. Have watched gameplay video, read reviews and interested in your opinions on this title too.

I'm a fairly new and previously unrealized Ted Zale fan, only took 10 years to figure out.

There are a number of Zale titles I'd like to have but don't come up for sale too often. There was a Rockmakers for sale last year in my area but was not yet a Ted fan.....

I'd certainly take a Mariner or Capersville if you have one laying around

I like novelty playfields and I appreciate the spinning flipper concept. They were always trying to innovate in some way. Should I consider Rocket III or wait for some other Zale design to come along?

4MBC is pretty similar.

Appreciate the advice about the Rocket III from you guys.

Someone else had this same question that I do.

Did zipper flippers use two rubbers on the flippers or one?

Joust in NJ that's been posted on FB for almost 2 months, price has dropped to $775.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1729155100876756/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A4eef96bf-69b7-4ed9-8258-e902347051ee

Nip-it in Rutledge, TN listed on FB for $1,850.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/4317781128447849/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A96e94d9b-0272-4afd-8ad9-c09a246517e5

Loop the Loop in Little Rock, AR at $1,500
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/342225361511145/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A3f0b7e58-6fc6-4254-98b6-764a02b2ec05

Op-Pop-Pop in Sylmar, CA listed at $1,350
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2079755729089987/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A6dcd7cb2-a7db-41d7-9c93-f0aebdc8fb6e

The Gator that was for sale in WV at $1,750 no longer posted.

Way too much but in utterly beautiful condition. When the seller quotes the Fonz thing..., a Nip-It in Titusville, FL
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/335778149123205/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A16100b38-9611-427f-a4df-54ef268a7bd1

For the die hard Zale fan a $500 Band Wagon with painted cab in Moultrie, GA
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/328414829723446/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A16100b38-9611-427f-a4df-54ef268a7bd1

Very rough cabinet on a Dogies in Duluth, MN for $1,100
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1958344904533175/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ade83f9fb-3caf-4d56-bd24-2492b2960971

And Sea Ray just listed for those near PA
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/165549

Did someone here pick up the Fireball that was lsited on FB in Tiffin, OH for $5,900?

Just wondering what it went for. Thought I made a very fair offer but never heard back....

You can rewind them or modify if needed. Not fun but doable.

Saw that too. She won't even respond to my IM's. Guess because I didn't offer $5,900

O-din, please elaborate. You've played enough pins to have a good reference.

I got into pins 10 years ago for 2-3 years then other things for a while then back into pins almost two years ago. Back then RPG was all Gottlieb EM love and William's and Bally's got poo-pooed.

Maybe my tastes have changed over the years.

Having recently acquired a 4MBC I've come realize of the genius of Ted Zale.

Your thoughts are usually interesting and entertaining at the same time.

That pin has a few fans. What's the allure to Pit Stop?

William's Olympic Hockey is another great two player example with scoring and goals. I'll have to check ut a Pit Stop at some point.

German version Bally Fireball $2K in Woodstock Vermont

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2493964627444269/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A15257d1d-8502-476f-822b-31e891c08061

A nice Bazar on Pinside still up;

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/166062

The King Rex is just starting coming back down to earth;

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1008524517094106?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A7aee20fa-63d6-4ddf-a437-02d358b2f515

And the bargain priced Fireball is surprsingly still available for $5,900 in Ohio. She's a real treat too.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1721948708276076?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A7aee20fa-63d6-4ddf-a437-02d358b2f515

A rarely seen Bally See Saw in Albany, OR for $600

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/890134209160847/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A99eac831-5508-4448-976f-e9b3f88bd51e

Temp, AZ $1,400

Wiggler that has an interesting cabinet paint job. Playfield is a bit rough.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/702374095147394/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A188c0a44-6fc4-4db8-bc7f-6f064cbe2422

Bally Op-Pop-Pop in Sylmar, CA isted at $1,350 on FB

Cabinet is in excellent condition.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2079755729089987/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ac47cfe56-35f3-44d1-b3c5-09c3982af2ec

And another in Danburry, CT listed at $1,800

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/723844086227916/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Afecdc739-ea2d-4699-8197-01e9a0a37efe

That's very interesting. How did Automaticos aquire zipper flippers the same year Bally released them? Did they have some type of agreement with Bally?

In the video of the known history of Ted Zale, they stated Bally threatened legal action against William's regarding there use of zipper flippers.

Been knocking on wood, throwing salt and sacrificing animals since Sunday evening.

If the deal holds up this Saturday were gonna.....

The only one I've seen in your area is that $3,500 Nip-It.

When this thing listed Sunday night in my area..freakin' eyes popped outta my head.

Gotta go sacrifice a chicken, brb

That would make sense.

Was wondering what you thought of Bazar.

Well, this does make me wonder, did Automaticos make any other pins with zipper flippers? Google is pretty sparse on Talleres del Llobregat S.A. info.

Would you post pictures of yours at some point? Would be cool if you updated IPDB and Pinside with better pictures of the backside of the playfield, lower cabinet and backbox.

And please post a video if possible.

Looking forward to the pictures!

And a good gameplay video is sorely needed on Youtube.

I think a lot got trashed but a few still lurking in basements.

Like this one. Sat for 25 years

IMG_1216 (resized).jpeg

That is surprisingly clean inside! And the playfield looks great too. The Rockmakers has the pull up board too! Love that design and my back loves it even more!

The Classic Gameroom video was too snarky in my opinion. Would be nice to see an overview of the rules then some good gameplay without saying COSMOS with reverb every 20-30 seconds.

Is a shame about the backglass. Coos does do vinyl prints. In the past it was around $275 for just the print (no glass) and shipping.

https://www.coos.net/bingo_e/Backglasses.html

My pick up is in a wee bit rougher condition. Overall not too bad but a few things to address. Will be a long but fun restoration. Going to start a thread for it as there were some goodies inside to share.

IMG_1248 (resized).JPG

Nice looking surfers.

Had a Gottlieb Majestic from 1957 when first getting in the hobby. Cabinet was awesome, all poplar too.
Majestic Pull Up Lower Board (resized).jpg

Good question. Service guys loved it but evidently the bean counters didn’t.

Very interested in the add-a-ball option.

First I’ve seen. How many other pins had metal side rails for the playfield?

The kickers are huge as well.

The pop rings are made of steel. This was Ted's spoonless design, it was in that video about Ted.

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What an unexpected surprise. Just a wipe with alcohol and microfiber
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Someone had linked this video somewhere in this thread and just watched it a few days ago. You can tell what a geek I am, watched the whole video. It was actually really interesting.

At 19:45 in the video they show a patent drawing of Zale's spoonless pop bumper design. At first when I saw the skirts it didn't click. Then when mowing the grass it struck me, came in and lifted the playfield to verify.

Anyone that has worked on an early Bally has likely seen them. This fantastic Safari restore has the Zale pops in it too.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/a-little-monkey-business-a-bally-safari-resto

I can't wait to take this thing apart! And very glad they all appear to work and so very smoothly as well. No dents or dings on them either.
Ted Zale SPoonless Design Steel Pop Skirt (resized).JPGTed Zale Spoonless Design Pop Bumper Backside (resized).JPGTed Zale Spoonless Design Pop Bumper Coil Assembly (resized).JPG

Wow!

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/886032183145630/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A202507a0-9d2b-4bda-8e29-86afc65c4632

Bally Sea Ray (resized).JPG

David, any idea why Bally move away from this design?

Anyone wanna play some Zip's at the VFW on Black Friday?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vfw-ann-arbor-black-friday-event-11-24-2023

Cool, the Cosmos has steel playfield side rails too.

The playfield on Fireball looks good.

Good day for someone, says it's in Frisco. Listing is in Grapevine TX

Nip-It $1,100

This game is working and is very clean. It has been in storage for a few years so it is possible it will need to have some TLC to get it up to it's best level.

The game is in storage in Frisco and an appointment will be needed to see it. Also the buyer will need to bring a truck or make arrangements for pick up.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1030360471634536/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A060d5d68-10a8-49c8-b606-c5e5dc02dca6

Very cool! Couldn't be in a better home too. Careful, the Zip's can be addictive.

I think it's a unique pin as it shows his innovation with the spinning bumper. And the idea kept spinning around his head until Fireball.

Looking at your picture, has Ted's pops (steel skirts), steel playfield side rails and a very, very intersting apron. Is that a credit or ball light above the 5 Balls Per Play?
Rocket III apron (resized).JPG

Speaking of Rocket III's, one listed in Carbondale, IL area for $600.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/358572420005774/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ab0fc8585-2103-470f-a725-c80aab6287bc

Just listed in Picken, SC not far from Greenville.

Nip-It project machine $850

Bally Nip-It project. Bought it as a working machine but I have not set it up. It’s sitting just as I unloaded it. Not going to set it up, so assume non working or project status. Needs a back panel for the head. Pretty much perfect backglass, nice apron, really nice playfield, cab is solid but worn and obviously it got busted on the bottom near the switch but the switch still works and it didn’t seem to affect the relay board in the cab. All mech’s are present and it’s very clean inside. Coins door is in very good shape. I am located nearest to Sunset, SC not far out of Greenville.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/358410770013617/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Af97ebf25-8fc9-4fbd-a47e-58efe1166161

Martin, TN
MiniZag $650

Nice pinball machine. Works, dings, scoreboard moves, needs new rubber and cleaning.
Have too many projects and need money to finish paying of remodel on home.
Still have original schematics.
I can get more pics when I get home.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/644898711192735/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A0f68eda3-4dad-49c0-8d22-75d4ce48e2e5

Nice looking Wiggler O-din.

THE line up at the VFW in Ann Arbor. Very good crowd and lots of Toys for Tots. Thanks Cliff!

A real treat and worth the trip if you can.

First time playing any Zale design other than the 4MBC.

Two pins really stuck out for me, Four Queens and Gator.

I’d take every one but with limited space have a few in the crosshairs.

Capersville is cool.
Dogies is something with all the gates.
Fireball, it’s cool but I’m not a fan of the disc.
Nip-It was a surprise, liked it a lot.
Wiggler has a cool layout.
Bazaar is a lot of fun.
Rockmakers is really cool, very relieved

But Gator just clicked, love it! And Four Queens is wild, fun gameplay.

And I was able to meet wolverinetuner , it was a pleasure. Looking forward to stopping by and playing Mars Trek.
IMG_1361 (resized).jpegIMG_1362 (resized).jpegIMG_1363 (resized).jpegIMG_1364 (resized).jpeg

I knew this was gonna happen. I really liked the playfield layout and the bonus building. The ramp shot is really cool and different than the 4MBC. Just don't like anything that changes where I initially intended the ball to go. Dig every other single last thing about it. You guys know how it is, some things click with you some don't. Not trying to dismiss Fireball whatsoever. And my pins don't have tilt bobs installed

How the hell did Ted Zale do this in his 60's? To come out of nowhere when most people retire and bring such a unique perspective to pinball. There's no doubt the man played pinball most of his life, right? You can't innovate in a field that you have no interest in, correct? Where did his mechanical background come from?

The surprising thing about 4 Queens was how the ball would play through the center kick-out hole when the ball has enough momentum. It takes what appears to be a split playfield and completely opens it up. Lighting the queens is tough but also has good ball flow. Was this table design one that Ted did while in final retirement in AK and Palta altered it or was it Palta's altogether? Another great designer in his own right too.

The 4 Queens currently listed on the Market is under $900 and just pristine too. That's simply a great deal.

DK Bazaar surprised me! Tough skill shot. If one pops up near me I'm on it. Very fun pin.

But here is what's kinda tough with his pins. With most EM's you can walk up, read the instructions or playfield and that's pretty much how the game plays.

Not Ted.

Most of the standard Bally apron cards only state a few scores with Fair, Good, Great. Not a single game instruction. Playfield instructions only take you so far. Now if you walk up to a Capersville for the first time, it's like WTF do you do?

Some of the others are a bit easier to figure out but some of them....wow.

The good news for people that still want to own a Zale, out of a good size crowd, only a smattering of people played them during the 3 hours the VFW was open tonight.
4 Queens (resized).JPGBazaar (resized).JPG

Its excellence is in it's simplicity. The zippers work really well with the flow of the gameplay.

He talks about 4 Queens at the 26 minute mark.

He then states in the early 70's that he and Ted went to Europe for feedback from operators. Bally took their recommendations and made changes.

Also didn't know Bigfoot is a copy of Bow and Arrow. He talks about it at the very end.

In the flyer they appear to be chrome or nickel plated?

But many of the Bally's had the dark grey didn't they?

https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=201&picno=3860

Look at this post on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/644898711192735/?mibextid=9R9pXO

MiniZag in Martin Tennessee listed at $650

Look at this post on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/358572420005774/?mibextid=9R9pXO

Rocket III in Carbondale IL listed for $600

Jim Patla states in that discussion that Ted Zale would stop watch a game, 3 ball play time should be 90 seconds and 5 ball play time 120 seconds.

That sounds quite short doesn't it?

Has anyone heard a reference used by Gottlieb and William's for preferred game length time during the EM period?

Thought I would put it to the time test with the 4MBC. Played 10 games in a row with no delay between plunges. Scoring on 4MBC can be more random due to the Volcano bonus and potential trapped balls left on the table between games, but that was the hook to get you to drop another quarter. Multiball times overall are extremely short on 4MBC.

5 Balls per Game;

1. 2:41 score 35,090
2. 1:20 score 10,350
3. 1:46 score 34,610
4. 1:50 score 20,900
5. 2:40 score 42,290
6. 1:13 score 16,150
7. 3:43 score 40,750
8. 1:59 score 23,630
9. 3:10 score 45,990
10. 2:13 score 31,670

The average game time from those 10 is 2:03 or 123 seconds. Pretty crazy right?

The games of 1:30 or less felt very quick as well, one or two quick drains and nothing you can do.

But the game times that were two minutes or more in length felt much longer than that. It's interesting how that slight addition of time felt to be much longer than it actually was.

Also interested to see if there is any change in this time per game as Jim took over. Will test Time Zone/Space Time 10 game average. Out of interest may just test the collection and see how they differ.

Also would be interesting to see how the game times changed through the latter EM era.

Did someone say EM's weren't challenging?

Tried the Time Zone but the first ball itself lasted 2 minutes. On a 5 ball game 4:49 with a score of 77,430. I can't use this as a test, way too many games on it and it has 75-78 era flipper mechs installed, the originals are just freakin' pathetic. And this is also why one game an evening on the TZ is usually enough.?.?

As just an average player on Bally Wizard, it always felt like it had decent to long game times for the most part.

Wizard set on 5 Ball;
1. 2:36 score 42,770
2. 3:26 score 91,080
3. 2:06 score 43,950
4. 2:39 score 71,680
5. 4:00 score 137,050 with one extra ball earned, total 6 balls
6. 1:58 score 58,100
7. 2:30 score 80,600
8. 4:00 score 91,600, no extra ball
9. 1:58 score 55, 640
10. 1:52 score 45,590

Average: 2:52
Note: The bonus count down time is included and can be "lengthy" if maxed and doubled. With Ted, most designs didn't have a bonus counter with a drain.

The skill level of the player is also a factor, no doubt. But at the time these games were produced there were plenty of talented pinball players one would assume. I think Patla stated he started at Bally while in high school as a game tester.

Will try the time test on Aztec too, that one's brutal playfield and surprising it sold so well. It's the one game where you simply don't ever want to intentionally shoot for the Extra Ball. Ever.

How much of a time per ball difference is there between a poorly maintained machine compare to a well maintained machine?

I knew pinball was about getting the highest score possible, just never realized you have about 30 seconds per ball to do so before the law of averages kicks in.

Not sure how many of you Zale fans live in Florida....

Capersville $900 Ocala, FL

"I have 3 vintage pinball machines for sale. Capersville works perfectly and is a mutiball machine . The play field is in great shape and the back glass is near perfect. The cabinet is solid but the paint is flaking. Asking $900"

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/358428190010079/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A143ff3b4-f963-43a0-aa55-2c10cba554c3
Capersville (resized).JPG

Really appreciate you taking the time to run the little experiment DanMarino. It's a bit easier to run 10 games in a row with a beer or two

And the ball times go back to what you posted about your Thankgiving Day players. They did not like Jacks Open, too hard. And look at the ball time.

The favorite, El Dorado.

How much does game time play into the "fun factor"? Why does a similar game time on a 4MBC feel like an ass whooping compared to the Wizard? Is it because the shots on the Wizard are easier vs the 4MBC?

I don't play SS or newer style pins. Wonder when the transition to longer games and times occurred, what drove it or was it a last gasp for revenue as the coin-op era faded?

It would appear the 30 second ball time in general is true for the 60's and 70's era. What is the average ball time of the 1950's era pins, similar? Early 80's?

For me, this is part of the enigma of Ted Zale. What did he do before joining Bally? What crowd of people was he hanging out with in the industry?

Ted didn't invent the concept of "time per ball" but he was well aware of it.

Glad that one worked out.

Do you actually have them set up and play them DK ?

Pics?

You have 77 pins? That, by most people's standards, is a metric shit ton

Price is really good

$250 for an Op-Pop-Pop

Look at this post on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/248943934633027/?mibextid=9R9pXO

You route EM’s as well? People put money in them if newer era pins are in the same line up?

Pretty cool.

I would surprised if the Zipper pins get played and earn on route.

Bummer. Have seen peoples comments about it and never played it until a couple weeks ago. I wasn't expecting too much but was pleasantly surprised and it's on my list.

When you were at the museum, did they understand what they stated to you? My face woulda' looked like

A pinball museum and concerned about it getting played too much? Hmmmm.....

How about you sell it to me and I'll take it home so it doesn't get "over played"

Who lives near Westfield, MA?

Want a Rockmakers for $400?

"1968 Bally Rock Pinball Machine for sale. Back glass is in perfect condition. Needs a little TLC and a good cleaning. It has a couple of loose connections. Includes some new replacement parts, along with the manual and electrical schematic."

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1087264855606375/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A202ed416-b62c-4ff1-adc0-e42826c75bcb

Wow is that in good condition or what?

I'm a fan of them as well, the trough lighting strip. Looks like yo have one in your trough too.

Great thing about them is that the brightness is adjustable too.

https://www.cometpinball.com/products/outhole-lighting-kit

Overpriced but another Capersville popped up;

1966 Bally Capersville pinball
$1,995
Listed 4 days ago in Baytown, TX

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/180365035099066/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A76d52786-8707-4d38-a838-0c36c8aaad7a

Also a Nip-It;

1973 Nip-It Pinball
$2,000
Listed 5 days ago in Pearland, TX

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/269373539454924/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A76d52786-8707-4d38-a838-0c36c8aaad7a

Patla's design and not Ted's but still a great zip game. The back glass is unfortuantely roasted.

4 Queens $400
Calumet, MI

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/7015205275196770/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A92b96a34-3a2d-49ee-909d-01addfb52efb

Mini-Zag $650

Martin, TN

Look at this post on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1096727321368890/?mibextid=9R9pXO

I’d go with factory look. Colors though are up to you.

Got pretty lucky tonight. Only had to offer two chickens and a goat at the alter of Master Zale. Usually only sacrifice the chickens but the neighbors have a few goats and likely won’t miss “Anna-bell”. At least I think that’s what the kids called her. Anyway…

Average game score for me is around 25k-35k.

So don’t forget about the goat next time you turn your Zip on! And mums the word on “Anna-bell”!

Happy New Year and may your pin pursuits come true.

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Look at this post on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/752851643363901/?mibextid=9R9pXO

Thinking of selling my 4MBC.

I never thought I'd be so enthralled with the dark side. Yes, a SS pin has changed my outlook. I've had exclusively EM's at home since entering the hobby. Never really had an interest in SS pins at all. But over the last 6 months the urge grew and sold a few pins to get a DE Jurassic Park a few weeks ago.

Since then, the few EM's remaining aren't getting much game time. So thinking of letting them go to pick up another SS title.

Am I crazy?

Who's been here before?

Do I need some therapy?

https://www.facebook.com/share/h5cSfcDhSLDmjN8F/?mibextid=79PoIi

IMG_2339 (resized).png

https://www.facebook.com/share/XucbmTCE1uw3VFmN/?mibextid=79PoIi

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