(Topic ID: 313496)

Bally Wizard player up reset issue

By borna

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 32 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by borna
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    BE3A670B-9BCA-4025-91B2-C4E1FDE8D096 (resized).jpeg
    B0FA9165-B197-460B-88D2-1AB76034A037 (resized).jpeg
    E941C38F-ADCF-4AA3-B5B7-5D88C2E619F0 (resized).jpeg
    19330954-AF77-4124-922B-EB3AF47F93FD (resized).jpeg
    85F79614-1BBB-4993-9FC9-47C79CABB6C4 (resized).jpeg
    236E763D-5E8C-402A-801D-6239E0A0B821 (resized).jpeg
    E62429F2-F42F-4694-8DF0-745C1611C0EB (resized).jpeg
    Wizard Player Reset (resized).jpg

    #1 1 year ago

    Hello all,
    I have 1976 Bally Wizard with a strange issue.
    Let say the number of player is set to 4 and ball in play is 1 and the 4th player turn. Once the ball is drained, it should go to player 1, ball 2, but instead sometime what happen is the game advance to ball 2, but it will stays on player 4 instead of player 1. This means player 1, 2,3 missed the change to play the 2nd ball. any idea what could be cause of this issue?

    #2 1 year ago

    This is caused by the player unit not resetting, so the machine believes you are back to player one. Does it also happen with 2 or 3 players? Does it reset back to player one if you turn the power off during a game and then restarts the machine?

    #3 1 year ago
    Quoted from sizteves:

    This is caused by the player unit not resetting, so the machine believes you are back to player one. Does it also happen with 2 or 3 players? Does it reset back to player one if you turn the power off during a game and then restarts the machine?

    Thanks for the info. I was thinking that could be been the issue as well. When powering the game it always reset to player 1. It mostly happens on player 4, and once in a while on player 3.
    Since this not happening all the time, I am thinking the player unit needs cleaning, adjusting? what's the best way to do that?

    #5 1 year ago

    If your Player Unit resets reliably at the start of every game chances are that it's working properly and that the circuit that resets it after the last player drains is what's intermittent.
    Wizard Player Reset (resized).jpgWizard Player Reset (resized).jpg
    When the last player drains the Ball Count Unit (in red at the top) fires once to advance the ball count. The End of Stroke (EOS) switch (in red, lower right) on the Ball Count Unit should fire the Player Reset relay. The Player Reset Relay should stay on until the Player Unit has reset back to player 1.

    If you're Player Unit doesn't reset reliably it could be that the Make/Break switch on the Player Reset relay (in red on the left) isn't closing reliably, or that the Player Reset relay isn't staying on long enough to reset the Player Unit.

    /Mark

    #6 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    If your Player Unit resets reliably at the start of every game chances are that it's working properly and that the circuit that resets it after the last player drains is what's intermittent.
    [quoted image]
    When the last player drains the Ball Count Unit (in red at the top) fires once to advance the ball count. The End of Stroke (EOS) switch (in red, lower right) on the Ball Count Unit should fire the Player Reset relay. The Player Reset Relay should stay on until the Player Unit has reset back to player 1.
    If you're Player Unit doesn't reset reliably it could be that the Make/Break switch on the Player Reset relay (in red on the left) isn't closing reliably, or that the Player Reset relay isn't staying on long enough to reset the Player Unit.
    /Mark

    Thanks for the great info. It seems after the 4th player sometimes the reset coil is not firing to set it to player 1. Based on the schematic (which is I am very new at it) possible that the "Player reset relay" need cleaning or adjustment?

    #7 1 year ago

    It's possible, but before guessing and cleaning and adjusting everything that might be related I usually try to understand what's misbehaving. In this case it would be helpful to know what the Player Reset relay does when the problem happens. Does it fire at all? Does it fire but let go immediately? Without that information the Player Reset relay could just be the victim here and cleaning and adjusting it at best wouldn't accomplish anything but could instead introduce a new problem.

    Are you comfortable lifting the playfield and running the game through a 4 player game while watching the Player Reset relay?

    #8 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    It's possible, but before guessing and cleaning and adjusting everything that might be related I usually try to understand what's misbehaving. In this case it would be helpful to know what the Player Reset relay does when the problem happens. Does it fire at all? Does it fire but let go immediately? Without that information the Player Reset relay could just be the victim here and cleaning and adjusting it at best wouldn't accomplish anything but could instead introduce a new problem.
    Are you comfortable lifting the playfield and running the game through a 4 player game while watching the Player Reset relay?

    yes, I agree and thanks for the help. I'll do that tomorrow by lifting the playing field and see what's going on

    #9 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    It's possible, but before guessing and cleaning and adjusting everything that might be related I usually try to understand what's misbehaving. In this case it would be helpful to know what the Player Reset relay does when the problem happens. Does it fire at all? Does it fire but let go immediately? Without that information the Player Reset relay could just be the victim here and cleaning and adjusting it at best wouldn't accomplish anything but could instead introduce a new problem.
    Are you comfortable lifting the playfield and running the game through a 4 player game while watching the Player Reset relay?

    today I lifted the playfield. So lets make it simple.

    let say the game is set for 2 players.
    Player 1, ball 1 is drained, the bonus scores are added, then will move to player 2, ball 1
    After the player 2 ball 1 is drained, and bonus are added for player 2, Then I see that the player rest relay getting activated, however the rest coil on the player up reset coil is not getting activated to reset it to player 1, therefore the game shows player 2, ball 2 now.

    95% of the time it behaves as above. Maybe 5% of the time move correctly between players when ball is drained. So I can't say some wire is broken, because it should never worked. So please help as where to look?

    #10 1 year ago

    The 1 player game sounds right, but I don't understand how the 2 player game you describe doesn't work.

    Quoted from borna:

    After the player 2 ball 1 is drained, and bonus are added, I see that the player rest relay getting activated, however the rest coil on the player stepper unit not activated to reset it to player 1, therefore the game shows player 2, ball 2.

    If the Player Reset relay fires in both cases, but the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid only fires in a 1 player game something else must be going on. Check the switches in the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid circuit (shown above in reply #5) in a 2 player game. For example does the Ball Index relay switch close for a 2 player game?

    #11 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    The 1 player game sounds right, but I don't understand how the 2 player game you describe doesn't work.

    If the Player Reset relay fires in both cases, but the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid only fires in a 1 player game something else must be going on. Check the switches in the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid circuit (shown above in reply #5) in a 2 player game. For example does the Ball Index relay switch close for a 2 player game?

    Yes, the Ball Index relay switches good and closed for a 2 player game.

    Actually some clarification. Player up Unit Rest only always fires during a new game startup. 95% of the time never fires again during the game to set it back to the player 1 once the last player's ball is drained. 5% of the time works normal.

    #12 1 year ago

    That makes all the difference. The circuit used during reset is completely different and not shown above. If your Player Up Unit Step Up (S.U.) solenoid fires to advance to players 2, 3 & 4, but the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid doesn't fire during a game it's probably the Player Reset Relay make/break switch in red in the upper left of the schematic above. The normally open side of the switch may not be closing or may be dirty, etc.

    #13 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    That makes all the difference. The circuit used during reset is completely different and not shown above. If your Player Up Unit Step Up (S.U.) solenoid fires to advance to players 2, 3 & 4, but the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid doesn't fire during a game it's probably the Player Reset Relay make/break switch in red in the upper left of the schematic above. The normally open side of the switch may not be closing or may be dirty, etc.

    I checked the player reset relay and cleaned it, and made sure it makes contact, but still no luck.
    so let me ask this question. Since I see the player reset relay is getting activated I can assume the switch on SCM 4B is ok, otherwise, the the player reset relay won't get activated?

    #14 1 year ago

    The Player Reset relay is driven by the Ball Count Unit End of Stroke switch as shown on the right side of the schematic. The fact that it fires doesn't tell you anything about the Motor 4B switch in the Player Up Unit circuits on the left side of the schematic.

    The fact that your Player Up Unit Step Up solenoid does fire tells you that all of the switches in its circuit, including the Motor 4B switch, are working.

    Your next step might be to jumper around the Player Reset relay make/break and other switches in the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid circuit to see if you can identify which one isn't working. The technique is described in other forum topics.

    #15 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    The Player Reset relay is driven by the Ball Count Unit End of Stroke switch as shown on the right side of the schematic. The fact that it fires doesn't tell you anything about the Motor 4B switch in the Player Up Unit circuits on the left side of the schematic.
    The fact that your Player Up Unit Step Up solenoid does fire tells you that all of the switches in its circuit, including the Motor 4B switch, are working.
    Your next step might be to jumper around the Player Reset relay make/break and other switches in the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid circuit to see if you can identify which one isn't working. The technique is described in other forum topics.

    So sorry for the stupid question since I am very new to this. the one showing by an arrow is the player rest relay. By Jumper, you mean connect a wire from the one pointed by arrow to the player up rest solenoid?
    E62429F2-F42F-4694-8DF0-745C1611C0EB (resized).jpegE62429F2-F42F-4694-8DF0-745C1611C0EB (resized).jpeg

    #16 1 year ago

    Probably? But without seeing the wire colors or relay label it's hard to be sure.

    If you connect an alligator clip jumper wire between the 90/grey wire and the 75/orange-white on either side of the Player Reset Relay make/break switch (in red above) that effectively removes that switch from the circuit, allowing current to pass around the switch rather than through it. If the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid fires when the last player drains with that jumper in place and not with the jumper removed there is some kind of problem with that switch closing.

    Beware that if you jumper as described both the Step Up and Reset solenoids may try to fire at the same time. You could block the other side of the switch (75/orange-white to 48/green-black) to prevent that from happening.

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    Probably? But without seeing the wire colors or relay label it's hard to be sure.
    If you connect an alligator clip jumper wire between the 90/grey wire and the 75/orange-white on either side of the Player Reset Relay make/break switch (in red above) that effectively removes that switch from the circuit, allowing current to pass around the switch rather than through it. If the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid fires when the last player drains with that jumper in place and not with the jumper removed there is some kind of problem with that switch closing.
    Beware that if you jumper as described both the Step Up and Reset solenoids may try to fire at the same time. You could block the other side of the switch (75/orange-white to 48/green-black) to prevent that from happening.

    Hope I got this right. So I connected the orange/white wire on the player rest relay to the gray wire on the relay. See the orange and gray arrows.
    If this is correct, then nothing new happened. Same behavior as before.

    236E763D-5E8C-402A-801D-6239E0A0B821 (resized).jpeg236E763D-5E8C-402A-801D-6239E0A0B821 (resized).jpeg
    #18 1 year ago

    The black arrow in your photo points to an alligator clip tied I think to a bare wire, which is connected to a black wire on the relay coil. That's not right.

    Look again at the schematic in reply #5. In the upper right corner, the spring looking thing highlighted in red and labeled "Player Reset relay" is the Player Reset relay coil, or the cylindrical part of the relay with two solder lugs and the green wrapper. It's connected to an 80/black wire and a 71/orange-red wire. Neither of those are part of the circuit we're interested in on the left side of the schematic.

    What we're trying to establish is whether the make/break switch on the left side, highlighted in red, leading to the Player Up Unit Reset and Step Up solenoids is working properly. A make/break switch has three switch leaves or solder lugs. The middle switch leaf is longer than the other two, and is activated by the relay armature or rack. As the relay activates and relaxes the long switch leaf moves between the two, shorter, outer leaves. The middle leaf makes contact with one outer leaf or the other, but never both.

    When the Player Reset relay is relaxed, as drawn in the schematic, the middle leaf (connected to the 75/orange-white) wire connects to the short outer leaf tied to the 48/green-black wire leading to the Player Up Unit Step Up solenoid. When the relay activates the middle switch leaf disconnects from the 48/green-black wire and connects instead to the other outer switch leaf which is connected to a 90/grey wire that leads to the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid.

    The connection through the middle leaf of the make/break switch (75/orange-white wire) to the outer leaf (90/grey wire) when the Player Reset relay is active may not be working. So jumpering those two wires together will bypass that switch and connect the 75/orange-white wire to the 90/grey wire all the time. If that lets your Player Up Unit Reset solenoid fire that would indicate that the switch isn't working correctly.

    So to do the experiment you need one end of the jumper clipped to the 75/orange-white wire on the middle switch leaf of the make/break switch and the other end clipped to the 90/grey wire on one of the outer switch leaves (or clipped to the 90/grey wire on the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid at the other end of the grey wire).

    #19 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    The black arrow in your photo points to an alligator clip tied I think to a bare wire, which is connected to a black wire on the relay coil. That's not right.
    Look again at the schematic in reply #5. In the upper right corner, the spring looking thing highlighted in red and labeled "Player Reset relay" is the Player Reset relay coil, or the cylindrical part of the relay with two solder lugs and the green wrapper. It's connected to an 80/black wire and a 71/orange-red wire. Neither of those are part of the circuit we're interested in on the left side of the schematic.
    What we're trying to establish is whether the make/break switch on the left side, highlighted in red, leading to the Player Up Unit Reset and Step Up solenoids is working properly. A make/break switch has three switch leaves or solder lugs. The middle switch leaf is longer than the other two, and is activated by the relay armature or rack. As the relay activates and relaxes the long switch leaf moves between the two, shorter, outer leaves. The middle leaf makes contact with one outer leaf or the other, but never both.
    When the Player Reset relay is relaxed, as drawn in the schematic, the middle leaf (connected to the 75/orange-white) wire connects to the short outer leaf tied to the 48/green-black wire leading to the Player Up Unit Step Up solenoid. When the relay activates the middle switch leaf disconnects from the 48/green-black wire and connects instead to the other outer switch leaf which is connected to a 90/grey wire that leads to the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid.
    The connection through the middle leaf of the make/break switch (75/orange-white wire) to the outer leaf (90/grey wire) when the Player Reset relay is active may not be working. So jumpering those two wires together will bypass that switch and connect the 75/orange-white wire to the 90/grey wire all the time. If that lets your Player Up Unit Reset solenoid fire that would indicate that the switch isn't working correctly.
    So to do the experiment you need one end of the jumper clipped to the 75/orange-white wire on the middle switch leaf of the make/break switch and the other end clipped to the 90/grey wire on one of the outer switch leaves (or clipped to the 90/grey wire on the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid at the other end of the grey wire).

    First of all, thanks so much for the great detailed information and the help you are providing. Now I understood what mean. Never work on these before, so I am a little slow
    Anyway I did connect O-W to Grey wire, and same behavior as before. Is it possible the wire is broken somewhere else? I think I mentioned this, but 95% of the time reset solenoid won’t fire, and may 5% of the time works correctly

    Here is a pic of the way I connected them
    85F79614-1BBB-4993-9FC9-47C79CABB6C4 (resized).jpeg85F79614-1BBB-4993-9FC9-47C79CABB6C4 (resized).jpeg

    #20 1 year ago

    Yes it's entirely possible that you have an intermittent fault of some kind somewhere in the circuit to the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid. You can use the same jumpering technique to bypass other parts of the circuit to see if you isolate where the issue is.

    You might want to read up on the technique for a better understanding of what you're trying to do. HowardR often refers folks to these sites for reference:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
    http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
    http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    Yes it's entirely possible that you have an intermittent fault of some kind somewhere in the circuit to the Player Up Unit Reset solenoid. You can use the same jumpering technique to bypass other parts of the circuit to see if you isolate where the issue is.
    You might want to read up on the technique for a better understanding of what you're trying to do. HowardR often refers folks to these sites for reference:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
    http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
    http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

    Great thanks. At least now now we know there is no issues on the player rest relay or any of the switches in the SCM?
    1. Can we say if any of the switches up to the player rest relay are bad, then the player rest relay won't fire?
    2. Also can we say the issue has to be with the Gray wire going from Player rest relay to the player up unit rest Solenoid?
    We know to Solenoid itself is good, because every single time during start of a new game it is alway rest to player 1
    3. Can Ohmmeter help here? I do get a reading between the gray on relay and the gray on the solenoid

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from borna:

    Great thanks. At least now now we know there is no issues on the player rest relay or any of the switches in the SCM?
    1. Can we say if any of the switches up to the player rest relay are bad, then the player rest relay won't fire?
    2. Also can we say the issue has to be with the Gray wire going from Player rest relay to the player up unit rest Solenoid?
    We know to Solenoid itself is good, because every single time during start of a new game it is alway rest to player 1

    3. Does Ohmmeter help to see the connection between gray wire between Player rest Relay and the player up Reset solenoid?
    4. Can we assume the issue has to be somewhere on the Gray wire?

    #23 1 year ago

    Wow, I think I found the issue, now I have to look at the schematic to see as to why this was the issue, so please help explain if I can’t figure it out.
    So as you can see in the pic, this is the game over relay. When the game is over, these contacts pointed by the red arrow are closed. When a new game starts it is supposed to be opened. After trying to look at all the contacts, I noticed it is still closed when the game is on. Placed a piece of paper between and cycling between the players started to work.

    19330954-AF77-4124-922B-EB3AF47F93FD (resized).jpeg19330954-AF77-4124-922B-EB3AF47F93FD (resized).jpeg

    #24 1 year ago

    The mistry still not 100% solved, eventhough it is pinpointed to the game over relay.
    As you can see from the pic, the switch pointed by the arrow is open. However with that condition still won't go to player 1 when the last player ball is drained.
    However, if I put a paper between that switch, then the game works perfectly.
    So I am very very puzzled as the switch is wide open and still doesn't work unless I put a paper between them? is it somehow arcing? I don't see a spark?
    E941C38F-ADCF-4AA3-B5B7-5D88C2E619F0 (resized).jpegE941C38F-ADCF-4AA3-B5B7-5D88C2E619F0 (resized).jpeg

    The sec pic is with paper in between and works perfectly

    B0FA9165-B197-460B-88D2-1AB76034A037 (resized).jpegB0FA9165-B197-460B-88D2-1AB76034A037 (resized).jpeg
    #25 1 year ago

    In the 2nd pic it looks like the armature isn’t in its fully tripped position. The trip coil frame might be adjustable for proper trip position for full range of the armature. Re-inspect all switch gaps and adjust if needed.

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    In the 2nd pic it looks like the armature isn’t in its fully tripped position. The trip coil frame might be adjustable for proper trip position for full range of the armature. Re-inspect all switch gaps and adjust if needed.

    but if you look at post #24, you can see the switch is open. what does the paper do between that open switch? Game works as expected with paper between the open switch, and won't work as expected without the paper between the same open switch.

    #27 1 year ago

    it seems the paper has noting to do with it. when paper is there, it applies a tiny bit of pressure and make all the switches to get the correction tension. Now I am thinking the switch to the left of the paper is the culprit. Any idea where that switch is on the schematic?

    #28 1 year ago

    If it’s the 3 blade make/break switch you will find it on the schematic that changes ball in play bulbs to game over and match bulbs.

    #29 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    If it’s the 3 blade make/break switch you will find it on the schematic that changes ball in play bulbs to game over and match bulbs.

    Third blade from left? I think that is the one I was referring to. anyway all good now and I am back in buiness.
    So is this the switch you are referring to?

    BE3A670B-9BCA-4025-91B2-C4E1FDE8D096 (resized).jpegBE3A670B-9BCA-4025-91B2-C4E1FDE8D096 (resized).jpeg
    #30 1 year ago

    Yes that’s the switch.

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinballdaveh:

    Yes that’s the switch.

    So how the logic in that connection works? before the adjustment, the player moved ok from player 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 but when the last player ball was drained, instead of going back to player 1, it stayed on the last player and advanced the ball in play?

    #32 1 year ago
    Quoted from borna:

    So how the logic in that connection works? before the adjustment, the player moved ok from player 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 but when the last player ball was drained, instead of going back to player 1, it stayed on the last player and advanced the ball in play?

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-wizard-player-issue and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.