(Topic ID: 283456)

Bally Wiring Harness's (MPU boot issue)

By jonnyinGB

3 years ago


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  • 45 posts
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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by ForceFlow
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#1 3 years ago

Hi.
New to this, I have a 1980 SI with a mpu remote battery memory type(as opposed to on board battery). The machine is in an un-played state since being delivered to the uk, on assumption. I assume this because there is no trace of playlines (have looked through magnifying glass & nothing). When I turn the machine on backbox,coin shoot (x2), playfield lights (top bumpers x4). To date I have done numerous repairs/maintanence. Still can't get past this or even to the seven self diagnostic tests, yes the green light is locked on. Had the machine almost two tears now with no play, I can't tell you how frustrating it is.
I have started cross-checking the my wiring harness against Downloaded schematics. The first connector I check has a discrepancy, oh bugger. This is well out of my depth.
Does anyone have any idea's where I go from here?
Thanks In Advance
Jon Beardsley ,U.K.

#2 3 years ago

If the green LED is stuck on, the solution probably has nothing to do with the wiring harness.

Lets see some close up pics of the bottom of the MPU board where the battery used to be installed.

well lit, focused, pictures.

#3 3 years ago

Hi
Thanks for reply, as per the first line of my original post.
"I have a 1980 SI with a mpu remote battery memory type(as opposed to on board battery)".
The factory fitted MPU has a battery holder on two wires (one black, one red) these two wires then physically connect to the MPU. You could say this is remotely attached by two wires. So now leaky battery stuff everywhere. It's almost as though Bally knew about battery issues, and late on in production run they changed to remote battery, I don't know my machine serial number location to back this up, bet one or more of the members could tell me.
Again thanks for reply.

#4 3 years ago

Where did the game come from? Has it been converted to UK voltage?

#5 3 years ago

I'd love to see a pic of a factory SI remote battery holder

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

, I don't know my machine serial number location

The serial number is on the left side of the cabinet, stamped into the wood, above the "invaders''

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

It's almost as though Bally knew about battery issues, and late on in production run they changed to remote battery, I don't know my machine serial number location to back this up, bet one or more of the members could tell me.
Again thanks for reply.

No such animal.....

#8 3 years ago

Serial Number 9770, please see attached photo's, sorry about quality.
When you say no such animal, does this mean that suggestion was a load of faeces in your opinion, you might be right.
I've also included pics of the only lights to come on, as described in first post (again sorry about photo quality, best I can do @ moment).
Ta

Photo0141 (resized).jpgPhoto0141 (resized).jpgPhoto0142 (resized).jpgPhoto0142 (resized).jpgPhoto0143 (resized).jpgPhoto0143 (resized).jpgPhoto0144 (resized).jpgPhoto0144 (resized).jpgPhoto0145 (resized).jpgPhoto0145 (resized).jpgPhoto0146 (resized).jpgPhoto0146 (resized).jpg
#9 3 years ago

Also regarding UK voltage. I correctly wired the mains transformer as per original instruction manual. test points on rectifier & MPU, all in acceptable parameters.
Ta

#10 3 years ago

You need 7 flashes from the mpu led, before the other lamps can turn on

Right now you only have the General Illumination lamps working.

#11 3 years ago

I know I need seven flashes, trying to get there!
Ta

#12 3 years ago

I think it is time to hit the easy button. Buy a new MPU and be done with it.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

I know I need seven flashes, trying to get there!
Ta

Locked on is tough for someone who does not work on boards. Could be bad chip, bad socket, hidden corrosion, - many many reasons

Do you have a meter?

Do you know how to solder?

Can you wipe the lens on your phone?

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Locked on is tough for someone who does not work on boards. Could be bad chip, bad socket, hidden corrosion, - many many reasons
Do you have a meter?
Do you know how to solder?
Can you wipe the lens on your phone?

Post of the week right there....

#15 3 years ago

O.K. So just to clarify, my mpu has no battery related corrosion (due to no on-board battery).

Can't do any better pictures.
I do have a meter as I already implied I had one by being able to confirm MPU & Rectifier test point voltages, not saying a word more.

So just to check with everybody, I thought this site was availble to all to visit & be able to talk to all, about all things pinball.
To date all anybodys done is take the piss.
I think it has nothing to do with the mpu because even when I take the MPU board out and the power up, the same old damn annoying lights come on.
So, if anybody has any helpful hints or suggestions, please let me know.
Any questions or thoughts, again let me know.
Thanks
Jon Beardsley

#16 3 years ago

Everyone is trying to help, but you are not giving us enough info

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-properly-ask-for-pinball-repair-help-vids-guide

#17 3 years ago

Name of game, manufacturer and year:
Space Invaders, Bally 1980 or older.
Did it ever work in your Possession?:
Same lights on powerup since day one.
Did You Run the Diagnostics?:
Can't get that far.
Where did the game come from?:
Private individual in Hertfordshire (UK)
Have needed MODS been done?:
Bridge Rectifiers (x2)
Roms ( plus relevant jumpers installed/removed)
Transformer rewired for UK.
Are any aftermarket boards installed?:
No
What was the last service you performed?:
None
Battery Corrosion:
None
LED or Incandescent lighting?:
Latter.

Blown fuses:
Yes, rectifier board fuse for playfield, then solo fuse underplayfield blown (shorts on two lamps suspected fault and repaired).
Smell:
Woody old smell.
Obvious Past Work Performed:

Do you have a Volt Meter?:
Yes
Can you solder?:
Sort of, Board repairs go to my board repair guy.
Location:
Nottingham, UK.
Pictures (make sure you have good pictures)
Tried my best.
Proper Title for Help (make sure you have a descriptive title)
It is a proper title as thats what I suspect the problerm might be.

Quoted from vid1900:

I'd love to see a pic of a factory SI remote battery holder

I understand the above quote to be sarcasm, not help. Well you do now have a picture of Battery holder & wires connecting to MPU ( Poor quality & blurry ) .
Ta
Jon Beardsley

#18 3 years ago

Excellent follow-up

So your mpu board is not booting up (locked on led with no flashes)

That often means the sockets are worn out/corroded

Without picture, we can't tell you if they are the original (very past their expiration date), or replacement , or ones that have been "outgassed" from past batteries

#19 3 years ago

The first step in "bulletproofing" any 40 year old Bally MPU is replacing the worn out sockets and connectors.

About 20 minutes of work, but it keeps you from wasting hours of time chasing your tail.

461a11e89b3107de73600f0d998cf45448b4a045 (resized).jpg461a11e89b3107de73600f0d998cf45448b4a045 (resized).jpg

That lowest socket is the RAM. CAREFULLY look at the fingers inside the socket; they should be shiny metal, not grey, white or green!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-quick-bally-driver-board-repair-bulletproofing/page/2#post-1490986

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

I understand the above quote to be sarcasm, not help

It was not sarcasm.

I love to see odd stuff from the factory. So had this been an actual factory remote battery, I certainly wanted to see it and store the picture in my archives.

A decade later, Bally did have some remote battery holders.

IMG_20201213_135458 (resized).jpgIMG_20201213_135458 (resized).jpg
#21 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Can you wipe the lens on your phone?

Quoted from jonnyinGB:

Can't do any better pictures.

Your camera lens is covered in grime. Just take a clean cotton t-shirt and wipe the lens of your camera. It will make a world of difference.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

Hi.
New to this, I have a 1980 SI with a mpu remote battery memory type(as opposed to on board battery). The machine is in an un-played state since being delivered to the uk, on assumption. I assume this because there is no trace of playlines (have looked through magnifying glass & nothing). When I turn the machine on backbox,coin shoot (x2), playfield lights (top bumpers x4). To date I have done numerous repairs/maintanence. Still can't get past this or even to the seven self diagnostic tests, yes the green light is locked on. Had the machine almost two tears now with no play, I can't tell you how frustrating it is.
I have started cross-checking the my wiring harness against Downloaded schematics. The first connector I check has a discrepancy, oh bugger. This is well out of my depth.
Does anyone have any idea's where I go from here?
Thanks In Advance
Jon Beardsley ,U.K.

Jon,

To rule out a wire harness issue with booting the MPU you can attempt to boot on the bench.
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#How_to_make_a_Benchtop_power_supply_for_the_MPU_board

I suspect though that the locked on LED is as stated by @vid1900. There are other sections in the Pinwiki to assist. Hang in there. The group will help.

#23 3 years ago

Got some better pics.
My mpu is corrosion free. RS connector looks to modern to be factory fitted?
ta

IMG_20201214_114444_4 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114444_4 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114611_5 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114611_5 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114615_5 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114615_5 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114628_1 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114628_1 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114647_6 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114647_6 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114708_2 (resized).jpgIMG_20201214_114708_2 (resized).jpg
#24 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

RS connector looks to modern to be factory fitted?

No, it's not. Just because someone did a nice job installing a connector doesn't mean it was the factory. You're asking us to believe that for the latter run of Space Invaders, Bally put a different connector onto a hacky-looking battery, then every game released after that went back to the board mounted one?

Based on a sample size of.... one. Your machine. Ask yourself honestly.... which is more likely? (a) Bally did this (b) someone else did this

Go to pinwiki and look in the Bally section at first steps.

Summarizing what pinwiki would tell you what to do:

Check voltages on rectifier board, all ok, move to solenoid driver board, test voltages there, all ok, move to MPU board, test voltages there, investigate behavior of diagnostic LED, react accordingly. If it's locked on, the game isn't booting. Follow that troubleshooting tree.

Quoted from jonnyinGB:

I think it has nothing to do with the mpu because even when I take the MPU board out and the power up, the same old damn annoying lights come on.

Anything where you're talking about some random lights coming on has nothing to do with the issue. People have been trying to help you, but you seem to have an insistence on not listening to what they are telling you and instead saying that other things that are unrelated are the issue. For the purposes of getting your game running, the random lights and the remote mounted battery are completely unrelated to a non-booting mpu. Have you looked at the MPU close up to see if there's any corrosion anywhere vs. insisting that there isn't because of a "factory mounted remote holder"? BTW, even with a remote mounted battery, corrosion most certainly can and does travel up the wires and can affect the board just the same.

#26 3 years ago

The lights you have working are just the General Illumination lamps. They work even if the MPU board's traces are consumed by corrosion, or even if the MPU is removed from the machine.

1 week later
#27 3 years ago

Hi All.
Please have a look @ updated photos, hopefully all the menbers reading this will give their overley descriptive evaluations on each pic.
Picture three shows dodgy run line on shoot ramp, the run line stops @ first gate. Heads down field to default location. Picture 4 shows bottom left ball run offs with no visible run lines? couple this up with transformer wiring errors carried out after delivery and this could result in no plays since delivery to U.K (circa 1980). Obviously these are just my amature pinball thoughts.
Yanks (sorry typo - Thanks)
Jon Beardsley

IMG_20201217_101352_0 (resized).jpgIMG_20201217_101352_0 (resized).jpgIMG_20201217_101535_8 (resized).jpgIMG_20201217_101535_8 (resized).jpgIMG_20201217_101623_6 (resized).jpgIMG_20201217_101623_6 (resized).jpgIMG_20201217_101641_5 (resized).jpgIMG_20201217_101641_5 (resized).jpg
#28 3 years ago

Board pics are too blurry to see anything

While you have the board out, hook it up to any standard PC power supply with some small alligator clips

On a 4 pin hard drive connector, red is 5v, yellow is 12v, black is gnd

Connect these to the corresponding test loops on the Bally mpu

If you don't get 6 flashes, do you know the board needs more work than you can do yourself

#29 3 years ago

This guy took the power supply out of the computer case, but you do not have to do that.

I've done it while the pc is running

#30 3 years ago

You will only get 6 flashes because you don't have the 43v that the 7th flash requires

But close enough for jazz

1 week later
#31 3 years ago

Hi All You Pinheads.
My ATX power supply landed this morning, so this evening I have bench tested my MPU. And it's not flashing six times, not five even.
The LED is locked on constant. Bench test done as per pinwiki.
Open to your thoughts or remedies, help, sos.
Happy New Year cheer to all.

Jon Beardsley

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

The LED is locked on constant

Could be a number of things- bad sockets, corrosion, bad ROMS.

You’re going to need to do some board repairs, or if this is something you have not done before, buy a replacement MPU. I suggest the latter so you get up and running.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#LED_locked_on

3 weeks later
#33 3 years ago

Hi Pinheads,

I removed all socketed chips apart from U6, U9 & U11, powered up & got two flashes (a flicker then flash maybe) on LED.
I want to keep my SI as original as can be, so really want to get this MPU working. Is this possible? an alltek is a last resort.
What do you all think?
Thanks
Jon Beardsley

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

Hi Pinheads,
I removed all socketed chips apart from U6, U9 & U11, powered up & got two flashes (a flicker then flash maybe) on LED.
I want to keep my SI as original as can be, so really want to get this MPU working. Is this possible? an alltek is a last resort.
What do you all think?
Thanks
Jon Beardsley

Sounds like progress. At least not locked on anymore. Here’s the summary from the link provided:

5.5.4.1 Quick summary
Flicker: MPU reset good, program booted.
1st Flash: ROM Checksums OK
2nd Flash: U7 6810 ram OK
3rd Flash: U8 5101 ram OK (U8 & U13 on mpu-200)
4th Flash: U10 PIA OK (see details for caveats)
5th Flash: U11 PIA OK (see details for caveats)
6th Flash: U12 555 Display interrupt timer OK
7th Flash: Zero crossing interrupt detector OK (solenoid voltage present)

So if you have a flicker and one flash- ROMs are good and possibly U7 or it’s socket is bad.

If you actually got 2 flashes- U8 or it’s socket is bad.

#35 3 years ago

When my MPU is on the bench, I reinsert U2 (recently purchased withU6) chip and the LED is then locked on again. Do I need to reinsert other chips to make U2 chip progress?
Also my U7 isn't 6810, it's 620-30 (next line) 7952. Does this have anything to do with it?
As far as I'm aware jumpers are correct to 2532 roms.
Ta

#36 3 years ago

delete

#37 3 years ago

Delete my last post/thread? what? be more specific please.

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

Delete my last post/thread? what? be more specific please.

I deleted what I responded. I don’t know the answers to your questions.

#39 3 years ago

that part number on U7 is a factory part number for a 6810.

All your main IC's appear to be socketed so I'd suggest carefully removing them, not damaging any of the traces underneath and carefully re-seating them ensuring the notch on each IC is facing to the left, and making sure each pin seats correctly, looking at the board with J5 up the top facing North.

Can you post a clear video of all chips socketed on the board and possibly a video of turning on your power supply with the 12VDC, 5VDC and ground attached?

For anyone to help out clarity of any pictures/videos is a must.

Not that it matters, but for the mpu to work it's not necessary to have the battery installed.

#40 3 years ago

Thanks for your honesty there emsrph.
I am going to get the mpu on the bench again, try & do a video for y'all.
Ta

#41 3 years ago

I will say, I have a super clean MPU that had no battery damage. I replaced my header pins because I do it on all my boards. It would not boot properly in the game. I had rebuilt the SDB and power supply, so no power issues (and verified with meters and scope). The connector has issues and parts are in the mail. It boots fine with jumpers.

Header pins and connectors need to be replaced for reliability.

20210126_163632 (resized).jpg20210126_163632 (resized).jpg
#42 3 years ago

Hi,
I am going to buy replacemnt chips for my board U9, U10 & U11. Can anyone suggest where to get them from and what alternatives I could use.
Thanks In Advance.
Jon

#43 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

Hi,
I am going to buy replacemnt chips for my board U9, U10 & U11. Can anyone suggest where to get them from and what alternatives I could use.
Thanks In Advance.
Jon

Don't know where you can order but for a couple bucks you may want to purchase U7 and U8 too. With getting one or two flashes that may be where you're stuck.

1 week later
#44 3 years ago

Hi Y'all.
It's early morning here in U.K, snow flakes the size of two penny pieces falling all around.
Monday morning rush hour is a thing no more here in the U.K.
But more snow, you can guarantee we'll crash and slide here in the U.K.

Had a couple of q'tions about my pin (S.I).
Was Bally's last year of manufacturing pinball's 1985?
Is my pin digital?

Ta
Jon Beardsley

#45 3 years ago
Quoted from jonnyinGB:

Was Bally's last year of manufacturing pinball's 1985?

No, the last Bally title was Revenge From Mars from 1999.

Quoted from jonnyinGB:

Is my pin digital?

Yes.

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