(Topic ID: 253746)

BALLY The Wiggler Add A Ball version.

By flipperdoktor

2 years ago

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  • 13 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by flipperdoktor
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    #1 2 years ago

    hi Guys

    I am the proud owner of a Bally Wiggler AAB (Add A Ball)
    The problem: there is no documentation for the Add A Ball version.
    My problem: Game can start normally, also the gameplay is ok inkl. Multiball feature, and after the last ball the device goes into Game Over, at least the Game Over lamp lights up on the Backglass.
    BUT- The scoremotor continues to run smoothly.
    I can now rebook credits if there are none and start a normal game again (Score Motor stops after routine) Score Wheels go neatly to Zero, the reset works fine, but Game Over does not mean Game Over, the damn score engine keep running.
    I checked and adjusted all the relays and contacts, including those on the Score Wheels.
    Suggestions or experiences with this problem?

    #2 2 years ago

    From IPDB: A factory add-a-ball version of this game was located in France having serial number 3022. The backglass and playfield are no different than the replay version. It was factory-wired with an add-a-ball stepper unit in addition to the standard replay stepper unit . There is no option to switch between replay and add-a-ball modes; the replay unit operates only to register multiple credits when a coin is inserted. The add-a-ball unit is not a kit and is mounted in the backbox in place of the 0-9 unit (match unit), assisted by two add-a-ball relays mounted nearby. Because there is no 0-9 unit, each player’s "ones" score reel is not wired for match operation at end of game. The silkscreened match numbers 1 through 9 on the backglass are used to count the added balls, leaving the number 0 not wired. Added balls are awarded for high scores (in multiples of 1000 points only) and for Wiggler Jet Super Bonus scores. Each player can earn up to 9 balls during the ball in play, and all added balls must be played off by that player before the next player is up. The Same Player Shoot Again indicators remain lit continuously for a player from the moment the first added ball is earned until the last added ball is shot into play. We don't know how many games were wired this way. No reference to this version has been found in the Bally Parts Catalogs.

    #3 2 years ago

    I would check the make/breaks sw. on the Game Over relay and also score motor sw. 7B.


    #4 2 years ago

    Hi flipperdoktor, currieddog +
    I also pick the faulty "running Score-Motor after reaching Game-Over" - as currieddog the switches on Game-Over-Relay. As every "Multiball Pin" the pin is more complicated - the schematics harder to understand. Question - when You have the fault (running Score-Motor): Can You actuate the flipper bats ? If "Yes": I would look at the two-bladed switch on Game-Over-Relay having soldered-on wire-14-2-Red-Green, wire-20-2-(just)-Blue. This switch controls a lot of relays etc. that shall be "non-operating" when the pin is in Game-Over.

    If no success (with the above) - further looking at "motor faulty running" - see the JPG - switches on several relays make the motor to run - (rather theoretically: Either one switch is faulty adjusted (means closed even when the relay is non-pulling) or) one of these relays is faulty pulling. When the fault (running Score-Motor) happens: Look at each of these relays - do You see one of them pulling ? I would start with checking: Ball-Return-Relay, Ball-Release-Relay - then checking the other relays for "pulling when the fault happens".

    Do not forget - Bally pins have 220VAC, 48VAC, 6VAC in the pin - be very cautios - just look, never touch metal - electricity can kill people. Greetings Rolf

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    #5 2 years ago

    THX Guys

    Yes i can actuate the Flipperbats and all Contacts scores Points, like Game in Play.

    PS: Originally nothing went, duration tilting and counting the balls.
    This could be remedied by using the missing 15 ohm resistor. (Tip came from the forum, thanks for that.)
    I thought that was it, then this error appears.

    Of course, the first thing I suspected was the Game Over Relay.
    It unfortunately does what it should, the Game Over lamp also lights up correctly and the ball in play lamp goes out.
    What does not bother me are the match lamps which do not light up, here they are supposed to show the Add A Balls.
    X-tra ball on the playfield does what it should and goes out after the last ball added.
    Nonetheless, tomorrow I will follow your advice and check the contacts with the DMM. (Schematic shows the switch positions in Game Over mode?)
    Although they are all as new and, with the power unplugged, manually operated, open the openers and close the normally open.
    PPS: if I press the Game Over Relay again during the "Game Over", it will hold until the Scoremotor has made its turn and the latch will drop it again ..

    #6 2 years ago

    Hi flipperdoktor
    the schematics of Gottlieb, Williams and Bally pins are drawn: A ONE-Player-Game has been started - all the resetting (Score-Drums and more) has been done, ball is kicked-over to the shooter alley ready to be shot into play - BUT the 220 / 110 main power plug is unplugged. The Interlock-Relay (two coils on the relay) "Game-Over-Relay" therefore is in position "in play is also named 'latched' " means all the switches on Game-Over-Relay are drawn in position "in play is also named 'latched' ". I would not measure with a DMM - I would do "as written in post-4".

    I do not understand the PPS in post-5. The Game-Over-Relay has two coils, has two armatures (two anchor plates) --- one armature has mounted an nylon-ladder to actuate the switches - this is the LATCH-Armature - when we press the Latch armature we latch the Relay - we bring the relay in latched position is "in Play" position. The other armature on the relay has no nylon-ladder mounted - this is the TRIP-Armature - when we press the Trip-Armature we trip the relay we bring the relay in tripped position is "Game-Over" position.
    What armature do You press - what armature is activated / actuated after the Score-Motor has turned ? From Your writing I fear "one coil is faulty feeded with current 'all the time' ". Greetings Rolf

    #7 2 years ago

    THX Rolf
    This Wiggler makes me a damn layman, with 35 years of experience

    Correctly, Game Over pulled in the game and unlocked at Game Over.
    If I move the game over relay (in pulled position)) manually, the Trip armature will release (in tripped position by Scoremotor), the scoremotor will continue to run.
    The Game Over Relais seems to work correctly, also the Cam7B Switch on scoremotor)

    Relays which remain activated in Game Over Mode (feeded with current): scoremotor keeps running

    Anti Cheat
    Match ("Last Ball" because Add A Ball)
    Player reset
    Ball release
    Next player

    Pictures shows:
    Scoremotor Cam 7 (my Finger) in both positions
    Game Over Relay both positions

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    #8 2 years ago

    Game Over Relays - bottom

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    #9 2 years ago

    Hi flipperdoktor
    thanks for the pictures --- on the Game-Over-Relay I cannot locate the two-bladed switch with the wires soldered-on "plain blue - just blue", "red with short stripes of green woven into". Please do this test: Be playing a game, a ball - toggle-off the main power switch on the pin, lift the playfield, watch the Game-Over-Relay and toggle-on again - the Game-Over-Relay trips and stays tripped. Then look at the Anti-Cheat-Relay and press the left flipper button - the Anti-Cheat-Relay pulls-in* and stays pulling*. Wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick - look at the Hold-Relay - I believe by now it is not pulling - please, You press the armature, anchor plate on the Hold-Relay and let go - the Hold-Relay must stay pulling on its own. Now press the right flipper button - the flipper bat is NOT allowed to actuate - does it actuate ? If it actuate then the switch on Game-Over-Relay is faulty - the two-bladed switch with the wires soldered-on "blue", "red-green" - it should be open but there current can faulty flow. You should see "Game Over" lightet in the Backbox.

    See the JPG - when the Game-Over-Relay is tripped then the "encircled red" switch shall be / is open. You made the Hold-Relay pulling - steady pulling* --- so the switch on Hold-Relay is closed --- but You should not be allowed to actuate a flipper bat because the Switch on Game-Over-Relay is open in "state tripped". Look for the switch on Game-Over-Relay - the two-bladed switch with the wires soldered-on "blue", "red-green", check for a drop of solder fallen there - a doghair crap of wire fallen there , a bent stud --- making faulty contact.

    pulls-in, stays pulling, steady pulling* --- I may say a Relay locks-in - is locked-in.
    Greetings Rolf

    0Wiggler-Work-08 (resized).jpg
    #10 2 years ago

    Rolf, you are great.

    Unfortunately, I can not follow your instructions, I have no on / off switch on this pinball!
    Joking aside. Pulling the power plug makes the same.
    It's like you say it: Game Over is "relaxed" & by pressing the right flipperbutton the lock attracts and the flipper bats works.

    You are right again, red / green and blue have passage, but this is not due to the contact sheets, it must be before.
    I cut off the blue and measured the contact sheets for continuity.
    No passage, so the leaves are OK.
    One probe at red / green and the other at blue, severed, wire, 100% continuity. (Disconnected power plug)

    I visit the circuit diagram, but if you could help me please ...
    PS: donation is out and my profile updated.
    Pinside and especially you are great.

    Pictures shows:
    Kontakt Blades

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    #11 2 years ago

    hi flipperdoktor
    You, currieddog , me (and maybe others) do write here in Your topic - probably some more do just read. So I think it is better when we use the standard-terms when writing. I refer to the manual https://www.ipdb.org/files/1677/Bally_1976_Night_Rider_Manual.pdf - on page 15 is a nice drawing of the Bally Interlock Relay (Your Game-Over-Relay is such an Interlock-Relay) - good, there are tips how to adjust such an relay. See the words "Trip Coil, Latch Coil, Trip (Coil) Armature, Latch (Coil) Armature" --- the relay does latch or does trip - is latched or is tripped. Sometimes (as I like the german word "Ankerplatte") I use "armature (anchor-plate)".
    Here http://rwatts.cdyn.com/download/intro%20to%20bally%20flipper%20games.pdf is a good document --- see page-22 (((shame on me: There they mention "Latch Coil is sometimes referred as Reset Coil"))).

    I do have a meter to measure Volts / Amps / Ohms - but I rarely use it because I always am afraid of "measuring from my start-point kind of backwards - wiring - through the windings in the transformer - wiring - my end-point --- I fear to get "false reading" - will another pinsider join and give tips on "using a meter, testing in this pin, the problem" (?).

    In Your post-10 I read "cut off the blue" - I hope for "cut wire-blue in the pin - cut near "solder-lug on switch on Game-Over-Relay" --- if so: Mount (sneak in into the wiring "blue") a plug so You can plug-in (have connection to the switch on Game-Over-Relay - then do play a game) --- when the Game-Over-Relay trips (and You see Game-Over lighted in the Backglass) and the fault starts to happen - unplug / disconnect that sneaked-in plug - do You then can actuate the flipper bats (I hope not) - maybe the fault is nice and friendly and has dissapeared ? - or what behaviour does the pin shows ?

    The reason why I stick to "Switch on Game-Over-Relay" is: When this switch cuts connection - many relays (maybe steppers (I'd have to look-up)) can no longer actuate - the fault fully dissapears or partly dissapears ...

    "Circuit diagram" --- how can I help --- do You mean the (ipdb) schematics ? or do You mean the JPG in post-9 ?

    In the second picture / JPG in Your post-10 I see wire-red-green and I see some distance away (to the right in the picture) the wire-blue --- but cannot see where the wires are soldered-on (are both soldered-on at the same blade ?) The schematics shows a two-bladed switch - one wire on one switchblade - the other wire on the other switchblade - and the switch shall be open when the Game-Over-Relay trips / is tripped. Greetings Rolf

    #12 2 years ago

    Sorry, I translate most things with Google Translate, I'm Austrian.

    ok, so:

    The Game Over / Interlock relay behaves as it should. (trip and latch works correkt)
    If I translate correctly "tripped" - Game over lights up.

    With the DMD you are right, because only shit comes out.
    Blue I have separated at the soldering lug to measure the contact sheets in the open state on passage. (of course no passage, no short)
    Then, stupidly, I tested red / green on the soldering tag and blue on the severed wire for continuity. - Yes, full passage.
    (PS: if I press the Reset # 3 in the Backbox manually, the beeping of the DMD stops)
    Tracking the lines I noticed:
    Red / Green also has full connection to yellow. (His source)
    Blue goes over a plug on the playfield for lighting.
    Therefore I measure between red / green and blue always passage with the DMD, the contact at Gameover relay seems superfluous

    Have followed your advice and placed a plug in the blue line.
    Now the result:
    A game made, the last ball goes out and Game Over lights up.
    Bats are in operation and the scoremotor is running ...
    Pulled the plug on the blue cable - no difference.
    Bats always go and the score engine runs and runs.

    1 month later
    #13 2 years ago

    Problem solved

    There was power at the Add A Ball assy. This tension transmitted through the driving pin on the contact package.
    Simple solution, but find that once ...

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