(Topic ID: 296544)

Bally Strikes and Spares Switch Matrix issue - Hard Nut part #2

By csab00

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 27 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Quench
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

IMG_20210718_153059 (resized).jpg
Strikes_and_Spares_Switch_Start.jpg
Strikes_and_Spares_Switch_Saucer.jpg
Strikes_and_Spares_Switches.jpg
IMG_20210717_155258 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155255 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155210 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155152 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155205 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155148 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155145 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155141 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155121 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155129 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_155112 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210717_154853 (resized).jpg

#1 2 years ago

Hi guys!

Last time i manged to resolve a problem with my Strikes and Spares last switch row all the switches activates in the same time -> thanks for the community!
Unfortunately the same error comes again all the switches in the last row going to be activated if i push the outhole switch
(outhole, Slam, #8 pin star rollover, Soucer Right bumper) what causes immediately a restart becouse of the slam tilt.
This is one of the thoughest problem i have ever met
I have spend a uncountable hours to find the problem but so far no luck.

The state:
It cannot be an MPU problem i have tried with LISY35 and LISYFA MPUs.
I have replaced both of the connectors J2 and J3 (Switch Matrix MPU)
I have cut all of the switch capacitors to make sure no strange behavior like a shorted capacitor.
I have removed all of the tilt switches (i dont need them) on both sides so row and column but i kept the chain to ensure the functionality.
All switch diodes are checked -> OK! (no short, no stupid mistake like mounted reversely)
Naturally i have inspected all of the switches in the last row no obvious short to ground!

Switch test does not show closed switches what can also cause strange behavior!
All the switches are working but there is one more ugly thing:
the left return lane switch activates the left slingshot coil and the right return lane switch activates the right slingshot coil
(the slingshot switches registered correctly from the switch test and all other switches too.

What i am thinking about for last chance:
remove the last row wire from the cpu and substitue with an extra wire connected to the playfield.
May the cable for the last row has a short in the wiring loom (broken insulation) what cannot be seen ...

Thanks in advance!

strikes (resized).pngstrikes (resized).png
#2 2 years ago
Quoted from csab00:

Last time i manged to resolve a problem with my Strikes and Spares last switch row all the switches activates in the same time -> thanks for the community!

How was it resolved last time?

Quoted from csab00:

the left return lane switch activates the left slingshot coil and the right return lane switch activates the right slingshot coil
(the slingshot switches registered correctly from the switch test and all other switches too.

Is this happening when you touch the return lane switches with your finger or during normal game play when the ball rolls over the switches?

Can you post some very clear pictures of the outhole switch from different angles including side on angle?

#3 2 years ago

Last time it was a little bit different. The whole last row was activated through the sauces switch.
The previous owner mounter a wrong switch where the activator was made from metal.
The ball caused the short with the metal activator together. I have replaced the switch with plastic activator then it was good.
At this time (couple of weeks ago) the return switched also behaving normaly.

Now in game mode the slingshot coils are activating when pressing the return lane switches with the finger or the ball.

Yes i will post the pictures at next week!
I have tried also this thing:
Removed the mounting screws for the outhole switch and kept the switch hanging not touching anything.
I went to the switch test and closed the outhole switch with my fingers.
The result was the same -> all switched were registered in the last row

#4 2 years ago

Does it actually happen when you play a game or just when you are testing it? When you test with a ball, are you touching the ball? Try activating the switches with a wooden pencil, dowel, plastic straw, etc., something that cannot conduct electricity.

#5 2 years ago

Check that the insulator "fish paper" between switch actuator wire and switch leaf is intact. The wire might be grounded via apron or ball trough, which surely will confuse the switch matrix.

#6 2 years ago

There should be no electrical connection between the rollover wire and the actual switch blade. If touching a rollover with your finger activates other switches there is a breakdown in that insulation.

#7 2 years ago

Thanks for the repiles!
I have created two short videos.
The first one is in switch test mode just to show what is going on and show the error.
I am using a small rubber to close the outhole switch.
The second video is the gameplay -> same error + the return lane error


There is no insulator "fish paper" that is true i will mount it but on the video you can see the closed switch does not touch the rollover wire there is nothing what can be interfered in this case.

What i cannot understand and this is may some internal programming rule:
If i desolder the connection for the tilt swiches (column and row) how can be still detected as a closed switch ?
(I just tried this by chance earlier all of the tilt switches were connected and the error was the same in the last switch row)

IMG_20210712_151509 (resized).jpgIMG_20210712_151509 (resized).jpgIMG_20210712_151512 (resized).jpgIMG_20210712_151512 (resized).jpgIMG_20210712_151518 (resized).jpgIMG_20210712_151518 (resized).jpgIMG_20210712_151528 (resized).jpgIMG_20210712_151528 (resized).jpg
#8 2 years ago

does any odd behaviour happen, like coils energising when you activate any of A,B & C top rollover lane switches?

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

does any odd behaviour happen, like coils energising when you activate any of A,B & C top rollover lane switches?

no with A,B,C switches works normaly (no coil energising)

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

There should be no electrical connection between the rollover wire and the actual switch blade. If touching a rollover with your finger activates other switches there is a breakdown in that insulation.

Hi BigAL!

I have done the switch test with small rubber there is no connection to rollover wire during my test.
Please watch my video.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from csab00:

If i desolder the connection for the tilt swiches (column and row) how can be still detected as a closed switch ?

It’s a false reading due to a failure of one or more components in the switch matrix.

#12 2 years ago

Please disconnect the J1 connector from the MPU board.
The displays and switched lamps will not work but tell us if the slingshots still activate when the ball rolls over the flipper return lanes.

While it's not the cause of problem in the videos, you need the fish-paper on that outhole switch because when the ball enters the outhole, it will short the switch to ground via the apron/hooks to the grounded lock-down bar receiver.

Lastly, I see you have 7 digit displays installed. How did you wire them to support millions scoring?

#13 2 years ago

Check for correct insulation and diodes on all switches (playfield and front door -especially the start button). And make sure that there are no shorts between a switch leaf and solenoid/general illumination or lamp circuit wire. Sometimes a bent diode might cause such a short.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Please disconnect the J1 connector from the MPU board.
The displays and switched lamps will not work but tell us if the slingshots still activate when the ball rolls over the flipper return lanes.
While it's not the cause of problem in the videos, you need the fish-paper on that outhole switch because when the ball enters the outhole, it will short the switch to ground via the apron/hooks to the grounded lock-down bar receiver.
Lastly, I see you have 7 digit displays installed. How did you wire them to support millions scoring?

I have added the fish paper -> as i expected it did not helped but surely it must be installed
Removing J1 was a great idea but the behaviour has not changed all switches are activated in the last row when outhole switch is closed
and both return lanes activates the slingshots

The displays are from lisy like the MPU. There is an option to set to 6 or 7 digit with jumpers

#15 2 years ago

what happens if you do the switch test and close other switches on the same return, like if you close the saucer switch do the displays only show 32?
without the ball in the outhole

#16 2 years ago

just thinking some more.....

what's also odd is that the 'row 7' switches are showing 'closed' when the outhole switch is closed but it's 2 of the 'column switches' that are acting up.
....and how can a tilt switch be showing closed if you have removed them? are you sure you have done them all, 5 in total?

yes it's a time consuming job, but i'd be removing the playfield, as it's easier to test when upright or laying down, and test all your switches manually on diode test, both ways and be visually inspecting all mechs especially the slingshots.
also checking for any continuity to ground from each switch blade.

no honestly I'd replace all the diodes for peace of mind and caps.

you mentioned isolating the 'tilt' switches but keeping the strobes/columns chains flowing.....i'd also tape up any exposed wires to prevent a short.

#17 2 years ago

For this era Bally, during switch test mode, shouldn’t it only show the lowest number switch that is closed? So, when you close 8, only 8 should show and not a higher number even if the higher numbered switch is registering as closed as well. In order for a higher number to show, it would have to think 8 is open again.

Are you sure your boards are ok? Have you tried while in switch test mode, disconnecting the connectors for the rows and columns and then shorting the pins for the rows and columns to ensure the correct switches are being read? That will indicate if it’s a board or playfield issue.

#18 2 years ago

they are not original boards, I thought the same also until i read the entire thread.

normally, or well as I understand it, a closed switch would appear and no others until that switch is opened.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

what happens if you do the switch test and close other switches on the same return, like if you close the saucer switch do the displays only show 32?
without the ball in the outhole

All other switches behaving normally from the switch test except the outhole.
I mean not registering more then one switch at once.

I have two board Lisy35 (raspberry PI) and BallyFA (PFGA) both are doing the same with the switches.

I have checked all of the diodes on the switches with my multimeter on diode mode.
(cca 0,4V on one side then reversed the multimeter leads shows nothing -> OK)
Diodes orientation are also correct for all.
I have cut off all of the capacitors from the switches! (i know this is not good for the switch sensibility but i wanted to find the error first)

I am not sure about original Bally board may it can be registered only one switch at once but Lisy can do more i guess...
I am thinking about to try it with an original Bally MPU board but recenty all of them are defect so i need to fix it first

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from csab00:

I am not sure about original Bally board may it can be registered only one switch at once but Lisy can do more i guess...

You are right. So, the original board will not help you in resolving this issue.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from csab00:

I am not sure about original Bally board may it can be registered only one switch at once but Lisy can do more i guess...

That's 100% the software, not the hardware. Stock software only shows the lowest numbered switch in switch test.

The test rom at pinwiki will show all the closed switches in the switch test and there are various game roms that have been modified as well to do so.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from csab00:

Removing J1 was a great idea but the behaviour has not changed all switches are activated in the last row when outhole switch is closed
and both return lanes activates the slingshots

Reason I asked to remove MPU J1 was just in case there was some wiring error enabling support for the new millions digit with the 7-digit displays. The displays (and lamp) signals are shared with the switch matrix signals.

The abnormalities from the outhole, left flipper return and right flipper return lanes all point to an issue with the strobe #0 column signal shorted somewhere.
Start a game, then disconnect the J3 connector live from the MPU board which will remove the front door start button and cabinet tilt wiring which are both on strobe #0 from the switch matrix. Do the playfield switch problems still occur?

If yes, post some clear pictures of all the playfield and cabinet switches on the strobe #0 signal - don't forget, the start button on the coin door and the tilt plumb-bob and tilt ball roll cage and weighted tilt switch next to the flipper mechanism on the playfield are also all on strobe #0.

If you install a working Bally MPU board and it fails at the fourth LED flash when J2 and/or J3 are connected, that will confirm the strobe #0 signal has a short somewhere.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Reason I asked to remove MPU J1 was just in case there was some wiring error enabling support for the new millions digit with the 7-digit displays. The displays (and lamp) signals are shared with the switch matrix signals.
The abnormalities from the outhole, left flipper return and right flipper return lanes all point to an issue with the strobe #0 column signal shorted somewhere.
Start a game, then disconnect the J3 connector live from the MPU board which will remove the front door start button and cabinet tilt wiring which are both on strobe #0 from the switch matrix. Do the playfield switch problems still occur?
If yes, post some clear pictures of all the playfield and cabinet switches on the strobe #0 signal - don't forget, the start button on the coin door and the tilt plumb-bob and tilt ball roll cage and weighted tilt switch next to the flipper mechanism on the playfield are also all on strobe #0.
If you install a working Bally MPU board and it fails at the fourth LED flash when J2 and/or J3 are connected, that will confirm the strobe #0 signal has a short somewhere.

Hi!

I did not know that thanks!
I have tried as you proposed removed the J3 connector live during gameplay -> the error still present

What i have noticed addicionally:
I pushed the start button more then one during the gameplay -> the middle pop bumper coil is activated.

The credit button also does not have fishpaper -> temporary i have added the paper from the display.

I made the pictures for all switches connected to strobe0

IMG_20210717_145102 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145102 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145105 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145105 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145123 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145123 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145131 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145131 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145141 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145141 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145150 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145150 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145153 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145153 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145156 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145156 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145206 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145206 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145209 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145209 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145221 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145221 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145246 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145246 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145252 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_145252 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_154848 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_154848 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_154853 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_154853 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155109 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155109 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155112 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155112 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155121 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155121 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155129 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155129 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155141 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155141 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155145 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155145 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155148 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155148 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155152 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155152 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155205 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155205 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155210 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155210 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155255 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155255 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155258 (resized).jpgIMG_20210717_155258 (resized).jpg
#24 2 years ago
Quoted from csab00:

I made the pictures for all switches connected to strobe0

Thankyou.
Please see the below pictures:
1) The red wire on the G.I lamps look like they're touching the switch leafs.
2) The banded side of the diode must not be soldered to the orange wire on the saucer switch. It might just be the angle of the picture but confirm it.
3) The diode on the start button switch looks cracked. Closely inspect it.

BTW, from the red-yellow wire (strobe #0 signal) at the start button, how much resistance do you measure to ground? Should be around 57k ohms.

Strikes_and_Spares_Switches.jpgStrikes_and_Spares_Switches.jpg
Strikes_and_Spares_Switch_Saucer.jpgStrikes_and_Spares_Switch_Saucer.jpg
Strikes_and_Spares_Switch_Start.jpgStrikes_and_Spares_Switch_Start.jpg

#25 2 years ago

could be the pic, but the slam tilt on the door....is that yellow wire touching ground-the bracket?

#26 2 years ago

Finally i have found the mistake!!!

Thank you Quench all for all who tried to help me solve this problem.
The idea was great to check the resistance beetween the strobe0 line and ground.

I have measured the resistance of the switches on strobe0 and ground it must be 57kOhm as given.
The tilt and credit button was ok but the other wire (white-red) strobe0 had very low 30 Ohm.

I started with the first switch -> desoldered the strobe0 (white-red) wire and splitted the continuity of the chain
then measured the resistance on the two wire and the ground.
The one what comes from the CPU board and the rest what goes to the other switches in the chain.
It turns out the short must be on the rest of the switches.

I have repeated the steps till the last two switches tilt and outhole. (outhole was the last one no more chain connection)

Look at the picture what i have found it is self explaining.
Unfortunately i was the dumb who made this when i was replacing the old non working lamp sockets.

Thank you so much !!!

IMG_20210718_153059 (resized).jpgIMG_20210718_153059 (resized).jpg
#27 2 years ago

Excellent find! Glad you diagnosed and found it. Of course it had to be at the last switch in the chain you checked

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 69.00
Electronics
Pinball Haus
Electronics
$ 149.95
Boards
Allteksystems
Boards
From: $ 170.00
Displays
PinballSolutions.eu
Displays
From: $ 15.00
Cabinet - Other
NO GOUGE PINBALL™
Other
From: $ 2.99
$ 199.95
$ 119.95
Boards
Allteksystems
Boards
$ 12.00
Tools
Nezzy's Pinball Prints
Tools
$ 22.50
Magazines/books
Pinball Magazine
Magazines/books
$ 10.00
From: $ 150.00
Displays
PinballSolutions.eu
Displays

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-strikes-and-spares-switch-matrix-issue-hard-nut-part-2 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.