(Topic ID: 179332)

Bally Squawk & Talk problem

By Inkochnito

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

st jumpers (resized).png
negative 5v (resized).png
#1 7 years ago

I have a Bally S&T board for Elektra that's acting up.
The board boots perfectly, no problem.
Sound plays and speech works.
Now comes the tricky part.

When booting the machine sound is heard, speech is activated for the first time and completed the sentence.
I wait for the machine to complete the full booting proces.
I press the credit button and sound is played, but the speech goes into a very low humm.
Just as if the processor locks up.
All sound play tough.

When I do NOT wait for the machine the fully boot, but press the credit button in the middle of the first sentence, the speech and sound plays as it should every time during all the time the machine is on.

I verified both pia's to be fully working and exchanged places. (NeoLoch tester used)
Ram is tested good (also NeoLoch).
Eproms are good.
CPU exchanged and working perfect.
Replaced U15, U16 and had no effect.

What might lock up the processor?
How can I see that the processor is locked?
I have a PicoScope and know how to work it.

Peter
www.inkochnito.nl

#2 7 years ago

I would test outside the machine on the bench. Does speech lock up?

#3 7 years ago

Yes, speech locks up.
I'v tested in my test cabinet and in the actual game.
The problem is definatly on the sound board.

#4 7 years ago

Maybe U8 or it's socket, also check r9

#5 7 years ago

What might lock up the processor?
How can I see that the processor is locked?

#6 7 years ago

Do mean the U8 the speech chip when you say processor?

#7 7 years ago

Do you have -4.5 to - 5.0 vdc at test point 4 ? If the voltage is low it can lock U8. The -5 volt regulator must be steady at the correct voltage.

#8 7 years ago

Which version of S&T do you have?
Early version or late version?

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Which version of S&T do you have?
Early version or late version?

The 61a version.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from jj44114:

Do mean the U8 the speech chip when you say processor?

No, the 6808 processor.
I didn’t know that U8 is also a processor.

#11 7 years ago

As a matter of fact the TMS5200 is a voice synthesis "processor".

#12 7 years ago

I've done some things, but no change.
I've replaced U15 and U16, exchanged the CPU, swapped the PIA's, nothing helps.
I even put the sound board in another (test)machine, still the same.
The test button does nothing when the speech doesn't work.
I have to turn off the machine to reset the sound board.

The funny thing is that when I press the credit button during the booting sentence, the sound board works perfectly, including the test button.
When I wait for the boot sentence to finish, the speech will lock up when I press the credit button and the test button does nothing.
Sound effects do still work.

I'm ready to trow in the towel......

#13 7 years ago

I still think it is the three transistors that control the -5 volts
that is located on the upper right-hand side.

#14 7 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

I still think it is the three transistors that control the -5 volts
that is located on the upper right-hand side.

The negative 5v is made by this circuit. If the -5v is stable and minimal ripple, the circuit is OK. The board will not POST OK the speech chip if -5v is missing, probably not your issue.

negative 5v (resized).pngnegative 5v (resized).png

Note the jumpers about volume control.
st jumpers (resized).pngst jumpers (resized).png

#15 7 years ago

Yes, there are 2 Bookkeeping registers that are part of the "digital" volume control feature that usually isn't used since the board are typically jumpered to use the two trim pots on the board. It kind of makes sense that at the end of the boot up sequence (or maybe game start) that the Main MPU board sends the volume settings digitally to the S&T board. I always make sure to set registers 16 - 21 to 03 just to be sure. Of course, the volume ones go up to 15.

Did you try the S&T EPROMs on another working board? Did you try another set on this board? You didn't say if you swapped the TMS5200 between boards either?

#16 7 years ago

Have you replaced chip sockets and header pins ? It's amazing how unstable these old boards can be until you replace those.

#17 7 years ago

Have you checked the power-up reset-circuit ? There's a capacitor (C1) that could be gone and causing the timing to go wild.

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

The negative 5v is made by this circuit. If the -5v is stable and minimal ripple, the circuit is OK. The board will not POST OK the speech chip if -5v is missing, probably not your issue.

Why is one not showing the -5 volt timing circuit schematic to the TMS5200?

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Why is one not showing the -5 volt timing circuit schematic to the TMS5200?

The speech chip oscillator circuit? It is set by rough value components, but not specific timing is not critical. It being out of spec should not cause a low volume issue. Fast/slow pitch and or talking speed.

The "speech power sequencer" circuit is just an extended delay to turn on the -5v connection to speech chip after the main CPU's reset pulls high. Since there is any speech present, it can be assumed to work.

-1
#20 7 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

I still think it is the three transistors that control the -5 volts
that is located on the upper right-hand side.

Transistors are tested and found to be good.
Are these transistors pulsed by the reset line or are these stable (not switching)?

#21 7 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Yes, there are 2 Bookkeeping registers that are part of the "digital" volume control feature that usually isn't used since the board are typically jumpered to use the two trim pots on the board. It kind of makes sense that at the end of the boot up sequence (or maybe game start) that the Main MPU board sends the volume settings digitally to the S&T board. I always make sure to set registers 16 - 21 to 03 just to be sure. Of course, the volume ones go up to 15.
Did you try the S&T EPROMs on another working board? Did you try another set on this board? You didn't say if you swapped the TMS5200 between boards either?

I did not know these registers (20 & 21) are used for volume....
I thought the volume was not controlable by the main MPU.
But that does not explain the locking of the sound cpu.

I will test the erpoms and compare them with the available files.
I do not want to swap the TMS5200 unless I really have to.
Those legs are so delicate.

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from stoptap:

Have you replaced chip sockets and header pins ? It's amazing how unstable these old boards can be until you replace those.

I have replaced the sockets for the eproms, ram and a few others.
Header pins are clean and shiny.
Caps are all replaced.

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from jj44114:

Maybe U8 or it's socket, also check r9

Yes R9 is important!

Quoted from barakandl:

The speech chip oscillator circuit? It is set by rough value components, but not specific timing is not critical. It being out of spec should not cause a low volume issue. Fast/slow pitch and or talking speed.

Yes, the timing of the TMS5200 (internal) oscillator is maybe not supercritical but has to be good.

I spent some 3 months trying to solve a problem with occasional garbled speech on one board only to finally discover that the oscillator frequency of the TMS chip was slightly off due to a bad R9. In my case the board usually worked but once in a while the speech was rubbish and much shorter duration. The TMS5200 internal oscillator affects also the timing towards the CPU so funny things can happen.

I always measure the frequency of TP11 and adjust R9 to whatever value is needed to get precisely 160kHz (6.25 us) at TP11. On my board an R9 of 124 kOhm was needed. Schematic states 130kOhm while the actual measured original R9 value was 150kOhm!

With that small adjustment my board is rock solid and the speech crystal clear. Maybe it does not solve your problem but could be worth a check if not already done. An oscillator at correct frequency is always a good starting point.

2 weeks later
#24 7 years ago

I've measured the frequency and it was at 153KHz.
Not too far of I would think.

I've made another board working.
Tranfered the eproms and the problem goes with it.
Reading the eproms showed a difference in U3.
Replaced U3 with another eprom.
Checked U4 and U5 as well.
All files and eproms match.
Still the problem remains.
Tested both boards in my test cabinet, the problem remains.
This leads me to think something is wroung with the file(s).
However, it is unlikely on had this kind of problem before me.....

Peter

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
From: £ 135.00
Electronics
Retro Electro Designs
 
$ 29.00
Boards
RoyGBev Pinball
 
$ 20.00
Playfield - Plastics
UpKick Pinball
 
From: $ 130.00
Boards
Troxel Repair
 
$ 15.00
Hardware
Volcano Pinball
 
$ 15.00
Hardware
Volcano Pinball
 
$ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
UpKick Pinball
 
3,100 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
O'fallon, MO
$ 99.00
$ 100.00
Cabinet - Other
Volcano Pinball
 
$ 5.00
Hardware
Volcano Pinball
 
$ 7.00
Playfield - Decals
Pinball Haus
 
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 22.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
$ 29.00
Boards
RoyGBev Pinball
 
3,200 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Elkhart, IN
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Berkeley Springs, WV
$ 33.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 20.00
Hardware
Volcano Pinball
 
$ 179.00
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Brooklyn, NY
From: £ 135.00
Electronics
Retro Electro Designs
 
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-squawk-talk-problem and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.