(Topic ID: 127828)

Bally Space Time - Extra Ball Functionality


By rfranklin66

4 years ago



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  • 18 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by rolf_martin_062
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Jumper-Cable-Tests.PDF (PDF preview)
IMG_2927.JPG
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Bally_1972_Space_Time_Schematic_Diagram_continuous_submitted_by_g_w_van_den_Brink.pdf (PDF preview)
Space Timev2.jpg

#1 4 years ago

Hi All,

This is my first post on Pinside ! Just got my first Pin a childhood favorite Space Time. Got it via Ebay and it has numerous issues but still is fun to play. The first one that I am trying to solve is the extra ball target. I am wondering how one is able to activate the Extra Ball functionality during play. Target works when hit and you get 100 points, however I am unable to activate the extra ball when lit during play (see attached). I was able to manually activate it by activating the Extra Ball Relay inside the machine, the Shoot Again When Lit went on as did the "Same Player Shoots Again" in the back glass.

Any ideas would be appreciated. Also the players, ball in play, and player up lights on backglass do not work but actual functionality does. I only mentioned this because perhaps this might be related to the above. For now want to keep it simple by focusing on Extra Ball

Space Timev2.jpg
#2 4 years ago

Do you have a wiring diagram for the game?It would be helpful for tracking down the problem. I don't own the game, but sounds like the extra ball relay would work, but is not getting a pulse from that target. Do the game rules specify what needs to happen first, to light the target? Others may chime in who are familiar with the game.

#3 4 years ago

The game flyer suggests there may be a stepper that controls when that target is lit for the extra ball. "mystery basis" is the term that is used. Usually that meant several points on a 1-10 stepper would light the target based on something like slings shot, or pop bumper, or other playfield switches advancing a stepper unit. Is this all sounding Greek to you?

#4 4 years ago

Thanks for the quick response. Makes sense. That's exactly it, if I knew what set off the extra ball functionality then I could trouble shoot. Interesting that you mention the pop bumper as these do not work correctly currently two are always lit and score 100 while the other two are always unlit and score 10. Took a look at over the weekend and they look fine, the bulbs all lite on start, but the scoring does not change. I still have a lot of learning to come up to speed, one day a time I attached schematic hoping that may help.

Bally_1972_Space_Time_Schematic_Diagram_continuous_submitted_by_g_w_van_den_Brink.pdf
#5 4 years ago

The match coil is stuck, changing the bumper lights and occasionally lighting the extra ball target is done by the match stepper.

Could be burned out, or having al loose wire.

#6 4 years ago

Thank you that would explain a lot. Newbie question, where would I find the Match Coil? On the schematic (A-B, 8-10) is only place I can see that mentions match. When I look into the machine I can't find anything that mentions Match.

#7 4 years ago

It's likely in the back box, near the score reels. I see two steppers back there in a picture. You can tell even if not labeled by wire colors from the schematic. If you play detective, you can figure it out and then simulate game play that should activate the said stepper. If it's not firing, then you will have to track down why.

#8 4 years ago

Thanks I have strong feeling that this is the match stepper (see pictures). I took picture of the front and back of the stepper the coil looks burned out and for a while only the match number that lit up was 70. You would get a free game when you matched. So that would make sense since thinking that match stepper was not moving. I did something over the weekend and now almost all of the backfield playfield lights do not work including match, but that is a problem for another day .

Do you think this is the match stepper and I should order and replace coil. Is there a simple way to test if coil is burned out ?

IMG_2926.JPG
IMG_2927.JPG

#9 4 years ago

Yea, that coil looks to be toast! You can find the coil number on the schematic. PBR or other sources have them. You may also need to figure out why the coil burnt in the first place (it may happen again). I was going to ask if it matched on the same number all the time (yes). Lights may be a blown fuse if you shorted a bulb socket. Look in the bottom at the fuses. Use the correct amperage when you replace if that is the case. Give us a progress report as you go.

#10 4 years ago

Thank you so much. I will keep you informed. I was starting to get frustrated but feel there may be a light at the end of the tunnel (Space Time Pun) lol. I will order parts and have purchased fuses so will see if that fixes lights issue.

#11 4 years ago

Hi rfranklin66
I wold first try the mechanical movement. Maybe there is sticky old grease ? Pull the line chord (NO current inside the machine !). Then try to move the plunger (Match-Unit) by hand.
If the (mechanical) movement is not good, then clean and try again.
If the movement is good - but it is still not operating, then find out, If CURRENT is flowing to the coil (maybe some other place a wire is broken). Unsolder the wires on both sides of the coil (Match-Unit). Take a jumper-cable and connect one side if a "Coil-of-a-Chime" to one side of the "Coil-of-the-Match-Unit". With a second jumper-cable connect the other side of "Coil-of-a-Chime" (of course the same Chime) to the other side of the "Coil-of-the-Match-Unit". You have these two coils mounted "parallell" (they should act at the same time).
Let somebody play and You have a close look at the Match-Unit:
-> Just a little bit of "Plunger of Match-Unit moves" (at the time that Chime rings) OR "full action of the Match-Unit" -> Somewhere in the circuitry for the Match-Unit is a broken wire - or the Normally-Open-Switch on the 10-Point-RELAY (for to let current flow to the Match-Unit-Coil) is "faulty-not-closing". Or the Contact-Points in this 10-Point-Relay-Switch are oxidated or a wire has broken off this switch ?
-> No action of the Match-Unit -> the coil (Match-Unit) is bad. Greetings Rolf

#12 4 years ago

Thanks you for all your input. More leads to check out. I am hoping replacing coil solves all issues. I have manually manipulated match stepper and it appears to be working in good order.

I have ordered my solder iron and all replacements parts which will be needed sometime in future so I am sure nothing will go to waste.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Take a jumper-cable and connect one side if a "Coil-of-a-Chime" to one side of the "Coil-of-the-Match-Unit". With a second jumper-cable connect the other side of "Coil-of-a-Chime" (of course the same Chime) to the other side of the "Coil-of-the-Match-Unit". You have these two coils mounted "parallell"

Not exactly understanding above. What is a "Coil-of-a-Chime", could you explain or if possible show a picture/drawing of what you mean.

The match did work until recently, match number was always 70 so if you matched that you did receive a free game. I think I blew fuse the other day, and all lights are out on backboard except one section, plan to try and fix tomorrow. Hoping this at least bring back 70, or since I moved perhaps another number.

#13 4 years ago

Hi rfranklin66
I am Swiss-German - I think in German and translate into English and the result sometimes is a bit "crummy" ...

Your Number-Match-Unit does not (never) works.
Possible Reason-A: Mechanical problem like sticky grease or a broken spring or a bent axis or ...
Possible Reason-B: The coil of the unit is shot (severely damaged and must be replaced) - the coil does not move the plunger.
Possible Reason-C: Somewhere in the circuitry ( to / from the No-Match-Unit) a wire has broken off or a switch does not close (when it should) - points in the switch are oxidated ore whatever.

You have eliminated "Possible Reason A" (You wrote: "I can step the unit by hand").
I would like to eliminate "Possible Reason B":
The "Chimes" actually consist of 3 bells. Each bell has a coil with two lugs and wires soldered-on to the lugs. Each bell has a plunger and has a metal plate for "Sound".
I want to use a WORKING bell - at the time You hear this bell "ring / sound" You KNOW: Current to / from the coil is flowing. I want You to do an extension (2 jumper cables): "Left side lug of coil of bell" connected (jumper cable) with "Left side lug of coil of Number-Match-Unit". And also a connection (another jumper cable) "Right side lug of coil of bell" connected with "Right side lug of coil of Number-Match-Unit".
Then a friend is playing the pin and YOU watch the Number Match Unit - At the time THAT BELL rings / sounds: Do YOU see a movement of the No-Match-Unit-Coil ? Or do You see a slight movement of this coil ? Or do You see NOTHING ?
Doing this, we can eliminate "Possible Reason B" - OR the result is: "Reason B" IS THE FAULT.

Because I do not like connected wires "to interfere / to make strange problems" I have written "On both sides (lugs) of the coil of the Number-Match-Unit : Unsolder wire(s)" (and tape the end of the unsoldered wire(s))".
I then have written "Use a jumper cable to connect Solder-lug-A-of-the-coil-of-the-bell with Solder-lug-A-of-the-coil-of-the-Number-Match-Unit". Do the same with Solder-lug-B-... with Solder-Lug-B-...".
Do not bother about which side of a coil is Side-A and which side is Side-B - just do the connections - and with the test (a friend is playing the pin and You are watching the Number-Match-Unit) we get the answer to the question: "Is it "Fault-B" ? Yes or No. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: The Number-Match-Unit is working properly when the coil of that unit gets current -> pulls the plunger -> the pulled plunger hooks onto a tooth on the wheel -> the coil looses current and let go the plunger -> a spring pulls the plunger back and by this the wheel is turned one step (further).
Around and around - always only one step at the time. The wheel is never "Reset". The wheel never turns "the other way around" (my "the other way around" might be a crummy translation of "in die andere Richtung drehend").

#14 4 years ago

Hey Rolf,

Apologize for the the delay in responding.

Thank you for an excellent description. Super helpful. I now have to purchase Jumper cable. I am building out my tool/parts chest with troubleshooting this issue If I am understanding above technique correctly what you are describing above could be used to troubleshoot parts (Match Coil) vs. wiring/other issue somewhere down the line in the schematic. That is it is a generic trouble shooting technique. Very useful tip for a newbie like me !

#15 4 years ago

Hi rfranklin66 +
I made a PDF: from the schema -> http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2262 -> 587 KB PDF Schematic Diagram I copied some parts into my PDF.

About Your problem (Number-Match-Unit does not step): I would do "Test-N-1-Jumper together with Test-N-2-Jumper - but (first) please read the whole text following:

How do I test with Jumper-Cables ?
I have several Jumper-Cables. Each Cable has a "Gator-Clamp" attached to one side of the Cable. And each Cable has a "Gator-Clamp" attached to the other side of the Cable.

Lets say "Your Coin-Relay does not work (it never gets active)".
Whenever You are "just working on the pin": PULL THE LINE CORD ! Plug in, start a game etc. WHEN TESTING.
First find the "Good side of the 50-Volt-10-Ampere-Fuse" - on my PDF I marked it with "99". DO NOT USE THE LUG ON THE TRANSFORMER (4) - You want to "Fuse blows" in case You do something wrong / something is wrong in the pin.
(line cord is pulled) I set a Jumper-Cable "A" from 99 to the lug-on-coil-of-coin-relais, where a wire (color: Black-Red) is soldered on". I plug in the Line-Cord, turn on the main switch and start a game.
If the Coin-Relay NOW gets active -> somewhere in the way "99" -> -> switch on Delay-Relay -> -> "lug on the Coin-Relay": In there must be the fault.
If the Coin-Relay (still) does not get active -> I LET JUMPER-CABLE-A as is (clipped-on on both sides).
I take another Jumper-Cable-B, clip-on onto "the-other-side-of-the-Coil of the Coin-Relay". I start a game and then make a "grace-shot" with the end of Jumper-Cable-B hitting "Transformer-8 (where wire-yellow is soldered on).
If the Coin-Relay does not get active: The Coil of the Coin-Relay is badly damaged / not working -> the coil must be replaced.
If the Coin-Relay gets active: I take "Jumper-Cable-B" away and mount the Cable as "Jumper-Cable-C". I make a test - Maybe I do "Jumper-Cable-D". By doing this ("A", "B", "C", "D") I can find out if (and where-in-between) a wire has broken / a switch is faulty.

Lets say "Your Coin Unit does not step up".
I start with Jumper-Cable-E (similar to Jumper-Cable-A) -> then Jumper-Cable-F, then -G, then -H, then I, then -J, then -K, then -L.

Lets say "Your 10-Point-Chime does never sound".
I might start my tests with two Jumper-Cables-M-1 and -M-2: I clip-on these two Jumper-Cables and have the two other ends of the cables outside the pin. I start a game an try a "Grace-Shot" - connecting (for a short time) M-1 and M-2.

Finally rfranklin66 (Your No-Match-Unit-Coil):
Pull the Line-Cord. Make a connection "N-1" (a Jumper-Cable) and make (another Jumper-Cable) the connection "N-2". Plug-in the Line-cord, start a game -> make (10) Points -> the 10-Point-Chime rings -> and the No-Match-Unit ??? If it does not move: The coil of the No-Match-Unit is bad -> replace it. If the No-Match-Unit steps by now -> Make Test-O-1 / -O-2 (Maybe make tests similar to "E", "F", "G", "H", "I", "J", "K", "L".

(in short - as usual) "How to test with Jumper-Cables". Greetings Rolf

Jumper-Cable-Tests.PDF
#16 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Finally rfranklin66 (Your No-Match-Unit-Coil):
Pull the Line-Cord. Make a connection "N-1" (a Jumper-Cable) and make (another Jumper-Cable) the connection "N-2". Plug-in the Line-cord, start a game -> make (10) Points -> the 10-Point-Chime rings -> and the No-Match-Unit ??? If it does not move: The coil of the No-Match-Unit is bad -> replace it. If the No-Match-Unit steps by now -> Make Test-O-1 / -O-2 (Maybe make tests similar to "E", "F", "G", "H", "I", "J", "K", "L".

Thanks so much for all this information. As I have never made connection like this before, I will see if I can figure it out, if not I will post a picture of the connections I made to make sure I got right. I hope to have time this weekend to attempt. I have all the parts except alligator clips which I plan to get this weekend as well.

#17 3 years ago

Hi rfranklin66
I changed my mind - lets do it simple: We do not use the 10-Point-Chime - We will use the 10-Point-Relay.

A fairytale (?): The Pre-Owner of the Space-Time did not notice as the coil of the 00-90-Unit gets hot and hotter and the insulation (lacquer) melts and a short in the circuitry occurs and the 50-Volt-10-Ampere-Fuse blows. Well, the fact, that the fuse blows: He takes notice of - and he has a look and he said: The coil of the No-Match-Unit (00-90) is ruined - well, well I do not need the functionality of the No-Match-Unit, therefore I unsolder the wire on one side of the No-Match-Coil (or the wires on both sides). And by doing so (coil is no longer in the circuitry), the new fuse can no longer blow. And then he sold the pin to YOU ...
You and I, we start working on the pin - and the fuse blows -> Result: The coil of the No-Match-Unit MUST BE REPLACED.
So, it would be nice, You have a couple of 10-Ampere-Fuses in stock (please do not use 15 Amp / 20 Amp / 25 Amp ...)

Do test the "Functionality of the No-Match-Unit-COIL":
We want to look at the 10-Point-RELAY (not the 10-Point-SCORE-WHEELS !). The Relay should be in the Back-Box. Let a friend play a game and watch and find the 10-Point-Relay. Whenever Your friend makes "10 Points": The 10-Point-Relay changes from "Inactive" to "Active for a while" to "Inactive again". Look at the two lugs of the coil. Has one lug soldered-on a wire (or 2 or 3 ...) "White with short Stripes of Blue woven into" ? This is "Lug-white-blue". Has the other lug one (or 2 or 3 or ...) wire soldered-on "Red" ? This is "Lug-red". Maybe the other lug has one (or 2 or 3 ...) bare wires (no insulation) soldered-on ? Follow the bare wires until You come to a lug. Is on that lug a wire "Red" soldered-on ?

If You cannot locate 10-Point-Relay-Lug-white-blue and / or cannot locate 10-Point-Relay-Lug-Red: DO NOT PROCEED WITH "TESTING", please write about.

Look at "Post-8-Pic-2", do You see two wires "Black" soldered-on one side of the coil of the No-Match-Unit (00 to 90) ? This is "Lug-black". Is the colour of the wire soldered-on onto the other side of the coil: "White with stripes of Orange woven into" ? If not: DO NOT PROCEED WITH "TESTING", please write about it. If You see "White-Orange", this is "Lug-white-orange".

Turn off the pin. Unplug the Line-Cord. Clip-on the "Gator-Clip" of a Jumper-Cable onto "Lug-red". The other end of the Jumper-Cable clip-on onto "Lug-black".
Plug-in the Line-Cord. What happens ? Turn on the pin. What happens ? Start a game. What happens ? Make some (10) Points. What happens ? Has the 10-Amp-Fuse blown ? Shows the No-Match-Unit (00-90) signs of life ? Has nothing happened ? Please report.
You have made a connection with the Jumper-Cable like "N-1" (PDF in post-15). (F-22 is "Lug-red" on the 10-Point-Relay-COIL, F-15 or F-16 is "Lug-black" on to No-Match-Unit-(00-90)-COIL).
Do You see (F-4) a "Branch-Off / Turn-Off / Fork-Off of a wire from "BLACK" ? Then through a switch on Game-Over-Relay -> through a switch on Reset-Relay -> through a switch on Tilt-Relay -> and after a long way -> "Lug-red on 10-Point-Relay-COIL" (all this is the "original connection").

If "Nothing has happened": Unplug the Line-Cord. Let the first Jumper-Cable clipped-on. With a second Jumper-Wire make a connection "Lug-white-blue" connected with "Lug-white-orange".
Look in the schema: The wire "white-orange" ends on "YELLOW". Also wire "white-blue" finally ends on "YELLOW". (And: "YELLOW" is always "YELLOW"). With this second Jumper-Cable You have made connection "N-2" (PDF in post-15).
Plug in the Line-Cord etc. (tests). Please report. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: If You DO NOT UNDERSTAND what I want You to do: DO NOT MAKE THE TESTS - Do ask ! I don't mind YOU asking.

#18 3 years ago

Hi rfranklin66
when You go shopping for (10 Amp Fuses and) Gator-Clips: Look in the "Automotive Departement" of the store - they should have nice "Male and Female Plugs" for Car-electric. You can put a cable in the opening (bare wire) and with a pair of pliers You can squeeze the plug AND the cable is attached to the plug.
I like these (car electric) plugs - when I should (for some testing) unsolder a wire somewhere in the pin and it is very hard to get there (especially for to solder on again): I cut the cable about two inches away from the solder lug (I can do it with one hand) - I take a cigarette lighter and burn away a bit of the insulation (one hand) - I put on the female plug (one hand) - I do the same on the other side (male, one hand) and then do my testing ...
When I have done my testing: I put male and female parts of the plug together (mostly by two hands) and live on with that sneaked-in "Male-Female-Plug".

If (in the far future) a latter-owner is looking in the pin for the cause of an error - and he comes by this "Male-Female-Plug" - He can see: On both sides of this (sneaked-in) plug there is the same (colour) insulation -> "This connection is right". Greetings Rolf

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