(Topic ID: 272185)

Bally Sky Kings startup problem

By rlbohon3

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

I'm working on restoring a Bally Sky Kings. After doing a bunch of work on the playfield and a little on the cabinet, I'm having some start-up issues. Basically, when the game is initialized, it resets the score wheels fine but instead of kicking out the ball for ball 1, it shuts off all backbit and playfield lights. Any ideas what this is? I was thinking it wasn't dealing with the ball advance right but not really sure after messing with it some more.

Here's a video of the problem in action:

#2 3 years ago

What do the Lock relay and the Game Over relay do when this happens?

#3 3 years ago

Love this game. Recently got mine back, so I'll do what I can if you need pics/observations/comparisons, etc. Interesting glitch ya got here.

I just went and tinkered with mine a little bit to see if I could duplicate this behavior. The slam tilt switch on the coin door does cause all the lights to go out (coin slot lights stay on), so that might be a one thing to investigate.

#4 3 years ago

Thanks for the replies!

Quoted from HowardR:

What do the Lock relay and the Game Over relay do when this happens?

They both seem to be working correctly. All of the switches conduct when they are supposed to and not when not supposed to.

Quoted from SkyKing2301:

Love this game. Recently got mine back, so I'll do what I can if you need pics/observations/comparisons, etc. Interesting glitch ya got here.
I just went and tinkered with mine a little bit to see if I could duplicate this behavior. The slam tilt switch on the coin door does cause all the lights to go out (coin slot lights stay on), so that might be a one thing to investigate.

Thanks for the help! I noticed the same behavior too, except that it triggers the delayed blink lamp (near the relay) to come on for a bit, then go out. Seems to to be working correctly. Still searching. Still learning.

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

What do the Lock relay and the Game Over relay do when this happens?

Quoted from rlbohon3:

They both seem to be working correctly. All of the switches conduct when they are supposed to and not when not supposed to.

Are they changing state or sitting quietly when this happens?

#6 3 years ago

When you press the left flipper button do the GI lights come on (and stay on)?

#7 3 years ago

As the others have hinted, it seems your Lock relay is involved, since the Lock relay being Off is what puts it into that state (all lights out less coin door).

I don't have the schematic (I'll have to check on my computer, maybe I have a scan) ... but things I see that deactivate the Lock relay are turning the power off (then power on to return to that state), the coin door slam switch, and the drop/kick switch (weighted switch mounted parallel in the floor of the cabinet, located next to the Top Hole relay).

I also noticed the drop/kick switch and the outhole switch (closed when your ball is in the trough) appear to share the same yellow ground wire. Might not be anything, just something else common to these components.

When you encounter the glitch, does that Delay lamp come on? If so, this could indicate the slam switch or drop switch may be involved. If not, we might be able to rule them out.

#8 3 years ago

I believe SkyKings and CHAMP share the same schematic. CHAMPS schematic is on IPDG.org.
At the end of your reset when the GI lights go out does the delay relay energize and the delay lamp come on?

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Are they changing state or sitting quietly when this happens?

Yep. Both the Lock relay and Game Over Interlock relay energize and de-energize. The Lock relay de-energizes right after the out hole switch is triggered, turning lights out and ending game function.

Quoted from JethroP:

When you press the left flipper button do the GI lights come on (and stay on)?

Yes, the left flipper does turn the GI lights back on and stay on.

Quoted from SkyKing2301:

As the others have hinted, it seems your Lock relay is involved, since the Lock relay being Off is what puts it into that state (all lights out less coin door).
I don't have the schematic (I'll have to check on my computer, maybe I have a scan) ... but things I see that deactivate the Lock relay are turning the power off (then power on to return to that state), the coin door slam switch, and the drop/kick switch (weighted switch mounted parallel in the floor of the cabinet, located next to the Top Hole relay).
I also noticed the drop/kick switch and the outhole switch (closed when your ball is in the trough) appear to share the same yellow ground wire. Might not be anything, just something else common to these components.
When you encounter the glitch, does that Delay lamp come on? If so, this could indicate the slam switch or drop switch may be involved. If not, we might be able to rule them out.

Quoted from JethroP:

I believe SkyKings and CHAMP share the same schematic. CHAMPS schematic is on IPDG.org.
At the end of your reset when the GI lights go out does the delay relay energize and the delay lamp come on?

If I close the coin door slam switch, the delay lamp does come on. If I close the out hole switch, the delay lamp does not come on.
I'll have to look closer at all the things that deactivate the Lock relay and see how I can trace this back to the out hole switch (seems like the tough part).

Here are a couple more videos related to the discussion above. Thanks again for the help.


#10 3 years ago

From your video, regarding the saucer being active without a game being started: mine does this too, and I believe this is normal -- to get a "stuck" ball back to the drain.

For example, player walks away and leaves a ball in the shooter lane. Operator shuts down power to games, but then notices ball in shooter lane. Operator launches ball to get game back to normal startup configuration. Ball lands in saucer and is now stuck there since power is off. Next time it's turned on and it detects saucer switch, kicker kicks ball out and drains it, now ready for a game.

#11 3 years ago

For starters, FYI, per the Champ schematic, the Lock relay is activated by the left flipper or the coin relay. Once it's activated by one of these two, a now-closed switch on the Lock relay keeps it activated.

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#12 3 years ago

I'm not the greatest at reading schematics, so hopefully someone else can chime in ... but it looks to me like the only thing that can cut power to the lock relay is a switch on the Delay relay, a fuse, or cutting the power off altogether.

However, i just tried tripping the switch manually on the Delay relay and that still activates it at any time, even during a reset and even with no ball in the outhole. In your video the delay light doesn't appear to come on (I think, as it was mostly out of view), so that doesn't look to be the culprit. Hmm.

Just to cover the bases and rule it out, maybe swap out that fuse to make sure it's not just being flaky?

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#13 3 years ago

Thanks again for helping me think through this. I'm following completely at this point. So when the the power is cutting (i.e. the lock the relay is deactivating), I'm thinking that under normal conditions the out hole relay is activated and the out hole solenoid is energized. Watching things closely again, I noticed that the out hole relay was indeed activating for a moment, but the out hole solenoid never moves. Looking at the wiring to the out hole solenoid, I noticed the black wire seemed to be pinched under a tab securing the yellow wire. A little tug and it was free. Tried the game again and BINGO!! That was the problem. The wires to the out hole solenoid were shorted. Now that they are not shorted, the game is operational. Keeping up with the videos on this, here are a couple more; one showing the shorted spot and one showing 1st game play since working on it. Next problems I'm already seeing are an occasional left pop bumper skirt sticking in the switch "cup" keeping the pop bumper stuck on, and the ball in play lights not working.

Thanks again for all the help!!


#14 3 years ago

Awesome!! Glad you got it going.

On the pop bumper sticking, be sure the spoon and skirt tip are clean, might need some switch stack adjustment too.

From your video, I also noticed -- Double Bonus is supposed to light on your last ball. Since you noted the Balls to Play isn't working, once you get that going, Double Bonus will hopefully start working properly. So yeah, better dive into that ball unit stepper, get it all cleaned up and see what's happening there.

I must say, your game is beautiful! The cabinet and plastics and colors look great. Makes mine very jealous, which definitely shows more signs of age. It's a relatively simple game, but addicting and fun. I've rolled it (>199,990) a handful of times and even broke 300K in one miracle game.

#15 3 years ago

I've had the switch stack and spoon out a couple times to clean and see what adjustment it needs. I did a little tweaking and so far it seems to be performing better. Time will tell.

As for the ball in play, I took apart the ball unit, scrubbed the ball unit contacts, mating arm and contact/arm near the center. It mostly fixed it. There were a couple times during game play it still didn't work, but I also scrubbed the switch in the game over relay (if I remember right) that feeds to the lights and it seems to be working better now. Jury still out if I have it working solid yet or not. Feeling like there's still something loose, but the more I play it and it consistently works right, the more confident I am that it's working right.

Thanks for the heads up on the Double Bonus. It's now working, probably because I have the ball in play now displaying.

Still watching for other function issues. I've noticed it's hard to hit the captive balls hard enough to make it to the Special targets. I might need to tighten up the flipper EOS switches to see if that helps.

Thanks for the compliments on this game! This game actually doesn't belong to me; I'm just doing all the refurb work. It's going to be a gift for a friend; his first game after wanting one for a long time. His wife asked me to find a game for him, and this one was a great fit. The plastics are original but were warped a bit. I cleaned them up and flattened them between glass in an oven. I really wanted to repaint the cabinet, but stencils aren't currently available and the condition isn't all that bad. Pinball Pimp would be willing to model a stencil off mine, but I didn't want to pony up the cash for a game that had decent artwork already. There is paint missing near the flipper buttons, but the rest is mostly in good shape. I'll patch in some paint to hide the worn areas. New Titan silicone bands throughout, Comet warm white clear LEDs, new pop bumper parts (including the mushroom bumpers) and all new flipper parts. Fixed a few minor playfield wear spots. Scrubbed the coin door, plunger, new legs, etc... The back glass was surprisingly flawless. It's coming together and getting close to being done.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from rlbohon3:

I've noticed it's hard to hit the captive balls hard enough to make it to the Special targets.

I had the same issue. There are other postings with the same issue. I recall someone installed different flipper coils (I think they were lower voltage, I forget). Some suggested reducing the game play angle. Others, including me, ended up changing the transformer tap to the higher voltage AND reducing the game play angle. It worked for me...barely. Still took a perfect hit to barely hit the special. Wasn't as fun with a slower (flatter) playfield, but at least could hit the special once in a while.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I had the same issue. There are other postings with the same issue. I recall someone installed different flipper coils (I think they were lower voltage, I forget). Some suggested reducing the game play angle. Others, including me, ended up changing the transformer tap to the higher voltage AND reducing the game play angle. It worked for me...barely. Still took a perfect hit to barely hit the special. Wasn't as fun with a slower (flatter) playfield, but at least could hit the special once in a while.

I've restored a couple Gottlieb EM's and swapped out the coils for the yellow-dot 5141 for a little stronger hit. I'm wondering if there is an alternate coil for this Bally game that would do effectively the same thing (something with a few less turns)? Regarding switching the transformer tap, I'm seeing around 57-58Vac vs the 53-54Vac on the original tap. Is that what it's supposed to be? Just a slight bump up in voltage?

#18 3 years ago

I just noticed on the schematic what the transformer voltages are supposed to be (53.5V on the main tab and 57.5V on the higher voltage tab). BTW, I forgot to mention that this game came with a lot of original documentation, including the schematic. I'll get all the docs scanned in and submitted to ipdb.org.

#19 3 years ago

Just another minor update; I switched over from the 53.5V to 57.5V and it seems to have made a very minor but slightly noticeable difference at flipper strength. At this point, seems “good ‘nuff”.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from rlbohon3:

I switched over from the 53.5V to 57.5V and it seems to have made a very minor but slightly noticeable difference at flipper strength.

Yep, that's what others including me did, and it did make just enough difference. What I recall in another thread was replacing the 50v coil with a 25v coil. You'd think it would burn up, but apparently not. Several people mentioned they've done that for extra flipper power in other games. i've never tried it.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Yep, that's what others including me did, and it did make just enough difference. What I recall in another thread was replacing the 50v coil with a 25v coil. You'd think it would burn up, but apparently not. Several people mentioned they've done that for extra flipper power in other games. i've never tried it.

Yeah, I found that other thread mentioning that about the coil swap. For now after bumping over to the high tap, I’m thinking it might just be good enough but will keep the coil swap in mind if I end up wanting to juice it up later.

#22 3 years ago

BTW, I uploaded schematics, game operation and parts list to IPBD.org (https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?2196) so hopefully that helps someone. Thanks again for the help w/ my game. Playing good so far.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from rlbohon3:

BTW, I uploaded schematics, game operation and parts list to IPBD.org (https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?2196) so hopefully that helps someone. Thanks again for the help w/ my game. Playing good so far.

Thank you for doing this!

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