(Topic ID: 283464)

Bally Shuffle Bowler issues

By KSUWildcatFan

1 year ago


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  • 42 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by KSUWildcatFan
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    #1 1 year ago

    I just picked this up yesterday, seemingly working okay but no lights. I was investigating the fuses and found the 15A to be cracked so I replaced it. I'm not sure continuity is great on that block so I'll likely end up replacing it at some point. Anyway, lights now work. But the game seems hung. It won't release pucks (it was previously) and appears to be stuck in game over mode. It was stuck on frame 8 I believe when I cycled power and now it just doesn't want to pull itself out of game over.

    I tried finding a manual, schematics, or anything... but no such luck. Could be that I'm just clueless on where to look; i know almost nothing about these and I usually avoid EMs like the plague.

    Any suggestions, or links?

    Also, I'm missing the 6 bulb cover, I don't suppose there's even a snowballs chance of finding a replacement? I'm thinking I'll likely need to just replace all 10 so they match.

    Any help is appreciated.

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    #2 1 year ago

    Scratch that, I'm dumb. I didn't realize the switch at the front had been flipped (apparently it doesn't turn it off entirely, but it does prevent a game from starting?). Switched that back and it let me complete a game. The 7 pin seems to be the only one that won't register by itself. From my testing it seemed like all of the others registered properly..but the 7 pin will only drop as part of a combo with 4 (different switch than 7 by itself). I can't figure out what's going on with 7. I cleaned the contacts and it's clearly making contact from the topside. I checked the switch stack and it looks right also, so I'm at a bit of a loss on what to do. Disassemble, deep clean it, resolder the contacts? Something else?

    Would still love a manual or schematic if anyone had links to those.

    Thanks!
    -Jordan

    #3 1 year ago

    See thread ( is there any shuffle bowlers out there).listed on there ,I believe a 1954 team shuffle bowler service manual .you will have to( PDF ).may be of some help.please keep us informed on there of your machine ,progress ect...thanks for posting..like to see people taking interest in the old bowlers.,good luck.

    #4 1 year ago

    I got a schematic for my United Astro from someone on eBay who seemed to have a variety, so I would check there. Also a link to a thread here, and the OP notes that he has a schematic and manual: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/need-help-with-bally-deluxe-club-shuffle-bowler

    You may try replacing the coil for your #7. I had to replace a couple on mine.

    #5 1 year ago

    I think deluxe is a different game, right? Mine is a 1 player, I think deluxe is a multi. May be the same on all the scoring components though. Good suggestion on ebay, I'll have to see if anything pops up in a search.

    #6 1 year ago

    Jeff Wager might have what you need. He is showing a schematic and a manual.

    JW1 (resized).jpgJW2 (resized).jpg
    #7 1 year ago
    Quoted from KevinD:

    Jeff Wager might have what you need. He is showing a schematic and a manual.
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    Is that $15 each? Thanks for the info!

    #8 1 year ago

    Here’s what I would do to test -

    There is a pair of switches to the left of the 5 (in front of the 8 ) and another pair to the right of the 5 (in front of the 9). One switch in each of those pairs should drop the 7. If none of them drop the 7, then see A below. If one of the switches in each of those pairs drops the 7, then see B below.

    A. Either the 7 relay coil is bad, or there is a switch on the relay that is normally closed (to arm the coil) and opens when the coil is fired (to keep it from burning out). If that switch is open when the 7 is lit, it will prevent the coil from firing, and therefore prevent the 7 from dropping.

    B. The coil is good and you have a connection issue between the 7 alley rollover switch and the coil. Not necessarily the switch itself.

    #9 1 year ago

    I’ve read that Bally bowlers are known for having terrible connectors. If the pin relays are in the back box, then there is a connector between the alley switches and the relays. So, if you determine that the coil is good and the de-energizing switch on the 7 relay is good (normally closed), then a good bet would be on the connector.

    #10 1 year ago

    Your problem peaked my curiosity - especially the part where the 7 relay fires as part of a combo with the 4 but not with the 7 switch. I thought that ruled out an issue with the 7 coil, but I don't think it does. I have a United bowler from the same era but I think the wiring is probably quite similar if not the same. The relevant parts of the schematic are inserted below.

    The switch arrangement matches your Bally with the exception of 2 extra switches that allow the player to accomplish a 7-10 pickup as a result of a SDTM split. They are labeled 10B (next to the 7) and 7B (next to the 10). We can ignore those switches.

    As you can see, there is a stand alone 7 relay that drops the 7, but there is also a combo 4-7-8 relay that also drops the 7. So, if the 7 gets dropped as a result of the 4-7-8 combo switch as you mentioned, that just means that the 4-7-8 relay is good. Now... we know that the 7 switch does not fire the 7 relay. So the next move would be to see if the 7A switches cause the 7 relay to fire. As mentioned before, these switches are located to the left and the right of the 5 pin. Moving the puck down each of the strike corridors will test them. If the strike corridors both drop all the pins including the 7, then your issue is with a wire/connection between your 7 switch and the relay. If they don't drop the 7, then it could be the coil or the aforementioned relay switch (shown in the schematic as the normally closed (NC) 7 RE switch just above the 7 coil). It could also be a wiring issue between the coil and where the 7, left 7A and right 7A switches come together. That would require some wire tracing on your part and even the correct schematic probably wouldn't help you much there. If the 7 coil and 7 RE (NC) switch were determined to be good, I'd start cleaning the connectors.

    Switches:
    switches (resized).jpg

    Relays:
    relays (resized).jpg

    #11 1 year ago

    Looks like my switches may be different?

    Pressing the switch I'm pointing at didn't drop 7. In fact I'm not sure it does anything at all, similarly to the one directly next to 7.

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    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

    Looks like my switches may be different?
    Pressing the switch I'm pointing at didn't drop 7. In fact I'm not sure it does anything at all, similarly to the one directly next to 7.
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    These switches knock over all but 7. Same on the other strike zone. 7 will ONLY drop with the 4 pin as part of the 4-7-8 relay it seems.

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    #13 1 year ago

    OK. Looking at the schematic, just pressing 7A (the one you are pointing at) by itself should not do anything. It will only fire the 7 relay if the switches in front of it have also been pressed. In other words, it needs to be part of the strike corridor sequence. Anyways, sounds like you ran the puck down each corridor and the 7 pin remained standing, so the next thing I'd check is the 7 coil and switch on the 7 relay that I mentioned that must be closed when the relay is reset (7 light is on) and opens when the relay is fired to de-energize the coil. If that switch is always open, the coil is always de-energized. Do you have easy access to the 7 relay/coil with the game powered on? Can you post a picture of it? Also, can you find a relay/coil labeled 4-7-8 somewhere in the mix?

    #14 1 year ago

    Since it is likely that there is more than one switch on the 7 relay, the switch I am referring to will be the one that is wired directly to one side of the coil. If you need help testing the switch and the coil, let me know and I can suggest a few things without physically swapping another coil in there.

    #15 1 year ago

    Apologies for the lack of response. I've been pretty overwhelmed with all my projects the last several days. This is what I see inside the cab, in addition to the switches under the playfield itself.

    I guess I'm just not 'getting it' but there's one coil for the entire bank, just to reset it. What am I missing?

    I thought about just switching the wires for the 7 pin with the 10 pin to see if that makes the 10 pin (now effectively the 7 pin) not drop, but I'm not sure what that really tells me..wiring problem in the cab as opposed to the switch under the playing surface?

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    #16 1 year ago

    I have circled what I presume to be the 7 pin "relay assembly". Each pin has a relay assembly as well as the combos "5-8-9", "4-7-8", etc. Each relay assembly consists of a series of switches and a small coil. The large coil that you see resets all the relay assemblies to start a frame. When one of the smaller coils is fired, the arm that is holding the switch leafs up (on that pin) is released, toggling the switches. If you look under those switches, you will find the small individual coils for each pin. You should be able to rotate that entire switch bank up to better inspect the switches and the coils. Typically there is a wing nut or something on the end of the bank that releases the mechanism in order to rotate it.

    First thing is to carefully inspect each of the switches on the 7 pin relay. One of the switches will have a wire that connects directly to the coil. That is the switch that must be closed and making good contact when the bank is reset and will open when the coil is fired.

    If that switch is making good contact, then the problem is likely with the 7 coil. I'll make a post explaining my suggestion for easily testing the 7 coil in a bit.

    bowler_relays (resized).jpg

    #17 1 year ago
    Quoted from stoli1:

    I have circled what I presume to be the 7 pin "relay" assembly. Each pin has a relay assembly as well as the combos "5-8-9", "4-7-8", etc. Each relay assembly consists of a series of switches and a small coil. The large coil that you see resets all the relays to start a frame. When one of the smaller coils is fired, the arm that is holding the switch leaves up on that pin is released, toggling the switches. If you look under those switches, you will find the small individual coils for each pin. You should be able to rotate that entire switch bank up to better inspect the switches and the coils. Typically there is a wing nut or something on the end of the bank that releases the mechanism in order to rotate it.
    First thing is to carefully inspect each of the switches on the 7 pin relay. One of the switches will have a wire that connects directly to the coil. That is the switch that must be closed and making good contact when the bank is reset and will open when the coil is fired.
    If that switch is making good contact, then the problem is likely with the 7 coil. I'll make a post explaining my suggestion for easily testing the 7 coil in a bit.
    [quoted image]

    Yeah, I definitely agree what you circled is what I need to look at. I guess what I'm confused on is just where the corresponding coil would be. I can observe all the other switches working when corresponding switches are triggered, but nothing from 7. I looked all around for a coil attached to that stack but didn't see anything. I'll check under and see what I find. Am I really this dense? lol

    #18 1 year ago

    Each pin coil should look something like this.

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    #19 1 year ago

    When energized, it becomes a magnet and pulls a small metal plate towards it. The plate will only move 1/8"-1/4". When the plate moves, the arm that is holding the switch leafs up is released and pulled down with a spring.

    #20 1 year ago

    Ah, I see em. They're crammed waaaay back there

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    #21 1 year ago

    OK, if the switches look good, then next thing is to inspect the coil and the mechanism around it to see if it looks and functions like those around it.

    #22 1 year ago
    Quoted from stoli1:

    OK, if the switches look good, then next thing is to inspect the coil and the mechanism around it to see if it looks and functions like those around it.

    I should be able to remove the entire stack(stacks? both of them, for 7?), right? Then I can inspect the wiring as well as the coil.

    #23 1 year ago

    To test the coil:

    If at any time you hear buzzing, power off the game immediately. It means that one of the coils is being energized because of a stuck switch.

    Each coil has two wires soldered to it. One of the tabs is connected to a switch related to that coil's relay. We are concerned with the other tabs. The ones that are not connected to the associated relay switch. They should be connected to the switches on the alley. WITH THE POWER OFF, use a small length of wire to connect the tab on the 10 coil (the one that doesn't goes to the relay switch) to the tab on the 7 coil (the one that doesn't goes to the relay switch). Now, power on, reset to a new game, and press down the 10 switch on the alley.

    The 10 pin should drop and so should the 7. If the 7 doesn't drop, then the 7 coil is probably bad.

    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

    I should be able to remove the entire stack(stacks? both of them, for 7?), right? Then I can inspect the wiring as well as the coil.

    You shouldn't have to remove the individual switches at this point. The whole bank can be swiveled up. Look for a nut, wing nut, or cotter pin on the end of the bank. With that removed, the entire bank will swivel on some hinges.

    #25 1 year ago

    I'll be back in a bit.... Need to clear 2 feet of snow off my driveway.

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from stoli1:

    You shouldn't have to remove the individual switches at this point. The whole bank can be swiveled up. Look for a nut, wing nut, or cotter pin on the end of the bank. With that removed, the entire bank will swivel on some hinges.

    Thank you! I'll give it a look.

    Quoted from stoli1:

    I'll be back in a bit.... Need to clear 2 feet of snow off my driveway.

    No rush, I'm wrapping up my work day anyway. I'm going to go look at this here in a bit. I appreciate all the help!

    #27 1 year ago

    Nothing like that that I see? I was going to add a coil on to my marco order but I'm not sure which one i need without seeing it. I'm not in any kind of rush to fix but I should definitely get that order in soon if possible. Any ideas?

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    #28 1 year ago

    Hmmm. I guess Bally doesn't make it easy.

    I have 2 ideas. The first is to see if the entire bank of switches can be lifted at the same time. Refer to the attached pics - the switches all screw into the angle bracket (A). If you remove the screws on each end (1) will that entire bank lift off?? (be careful of the switch on the right end).

    If that doesn't do it, then you might have to remove the entire assembly - the four nuts labeled 2. In that case you'd also have to loosen the wire harness clamps as well.

    1a (resized).jpg2a (resized).jpg
    #29 1 year ago

    Pay attention to the brackets (for lack of a better term) that are intermingled within the switch leafs. If they aren't also attached to bracket A, then you'll have to take some pics to make sure it goes back together correctly.

    #30 1 year ago

    Can you tell if all the coils are attached to bracket A as well?

    #31 1 year ago

    Your pictures don't show the area on the back side of the switch bank (where all the wires are soldered to the switch tabs). I was thinking that if the coil tabs are accessible (under the switch solder tabs), you could at least determine that the problem is definitely the coil before you go through the trouble of disassembling the switch bank.

    Just to reiterate, the coil test I described is only valid if the switches on the 7 pin relay are determined to be correct and working.

    If you are unsure what I am getting at, a picture zoomed in to that area of the 7 and 10 switches may allow me to elaborate.

    1 week later
    #32 1 year ago

    Finally got a chance to get back out to the garage to mess with this. The two screws (your "1") on either side of the bank, when removed, allow it to pull out. Well, Kind of. There's a switch on the left that's preventing me from pulling it all the way out. I'm about to unscrew that and see how that works out....but my fear is that I may not be able to get it positioned back in when I'm all done. Really I just want to figure out what coil it's using so I can add one (or two) to the order I'm about to place. Actually fixing it and all that...meh, whatever. I need to get it finished up and delivered to my friend in the next month or so, but there's really no urgent rush. I don't see any kind of writing on the coil from what I can see of it :\

    #33 1 year ago
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    #34 1 year ago

    https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/30-V-26

    This one popped up when I searched for shuffle bowler parts...but I have very little faith (or even hope, really) that it's....the right part.

    #35 1 year ago

    Well, to ensure you get the correct coil, you will first need to acquire a schematic. Another possibility is to email PBR and if you describe which coil you need and the name of the game you need it for, they might be able to help you out. As a last resort, if you can't find a schematic or get info from PBR or someone else, then you can measure the coil voltage at the transformer and if it is 26-30 VAC, then that coil from Marco that you linked to is probably a good bet.

    I'd still try to figure out a way to test the 7 coil in place before you go through the trouble and expense of buying a new coil and pulling that bank apart to replace it. It would suck to go through all that only to find out the problem is with a switch or connector and not the coil itself.

    1. Does one or two of the wires from each stack of switches go down to the coils below?
    2. Can you access the solder tabs on the coils without removing the entire switch bank?
    3. Have you tripped the metal plate on the 7 relay to make sure that the relay works physically, and thereby also checked the function of the switches associated with the 7 coil/relay?

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from stoli1:

    Well, to ensure you get the correct coil, you will first need to acquire a schematic. Another possibility is to email PBR and if you describe which coil you need and the name of the game you need it for, they might be able to help you out. As a last resort, if you can't find a schematic or get info from PBR or someone else, then you can measure the coil voltage at the transformer and if it is 26-30 VAC, then that coil from Marco that you linked to is probably a good bet.
    I'd still try to figure out a way to test the 7 coil in place before you go through the trouble and expense of buying a new coil and pulling that bank apart to replace it. It would suck to go through all that only to find out the problem is with a switch or connector and not the coil itself.
    1. Does one or two of the wires from each stack of switches go down to the coils below?
    2. Can you access the solder tabs on the coils without removing the entire switch bank?
    3. Have you tripped the metal plate on the 7 relay to make sure that the relay works physically, and thereby also checked the function of the switches associated with the 7 coil/relay?

    Yeah, I really do need to get my hands on a schematic. Sucks there apparently isn't one available online to just go download. Hate to sound like a cheap ass but since I'm not keeping this after I get thing working, I'm trying to be cheap about it. Then again, since it's going to a friend, having a schematic for future use would probably be good. I highly doubt this is the last time I'll have to work on this.

    I definitely need to test the coil and all that.. but it seems to me that I have to remove the entire bank in order to access the tabs on the coil itself. The board won't pull out far enough for me to access the back, unless it's just Jones plugs preventing this... I'll check that today.

    Honestly I haven't had a lot of opportunity to debug much. I've been trying to get access to the back of the bank with little success.

    Lemme see what I can figure out today and hopefully I can answer some questions. I might go ahead and just order that coil so I can place my marco order. I'm betting that, if that's not the right coil, marco probably doesn't sell it to begin with and in that case I'll be making a separate order with PBR, as you mentioned, anyway.

    I really do appreciate all the help!

    #37 1 year ago

    Nope, there's a lot of wiring preventing me from completely pulling the board out, so it looks like I'm going to be pulling the bank around that left switch and hoping I can get it back in. Its really weird how it seems to lock that left side in.

    #38 1 year ago
    Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

    it looks like I'm going to be pulling the bank around that left switch and hoping I can get it back in.

    So I'm thinking you'd like to jump the #7 Pin Relay to another Pin Relay to see if it pulls
    when the one that it's jumped to does. There should be a switch in the Pin Relay's stacks that
    go to the Hot lug of their coil. That should be easy to get an elegator clip on. Now if you
    can get another clip on the common neutral lug which may have jumpers to other coils.
    btw: Can you see a number on one of the Pin Coils? Also, being a 1949/1950 machine, are
    they 30 volt coils?

    #39 1 year ago

    Since you can't get access to the coil tabs, you'll have to figure out the wiring so you can attempt to fire the coil another way.

    How about my previous questions 1 & 3?

    #40 1 year ago

    Also, its sounding like removing the switch bank by removing screws (#1) might be a can of worms, especially if those switch actuator arms don't come with it. To access the coils, you might need to remove the entire assembly via screws #2 plus the wiring harness clamps. That should take the switches on the ends with it.

    #41 1 year ago

    I agree with what you're saying. I think I'll put these screws back in and see where removing #2 gets me. I really need to be able to look at things in the back, where it's of course a royal pain to get to.

    I've thought plenty about trying to jumper things (7 switch and 10 switch topside as well as things in the bank) but I think I really need to get to the backside of the bank so I can see what's going on. I went ahead and ordered that coil from Marco because I needed to place my order but if it ends up being the wrong one I'll just throw it in my toolbox.

    Its sleeting and cold as hell outside right now (not sure if winter finally hit or if kansas is just stupid and it'll be 70 and sunny tomorrow) but I'm hoping to get back out there soon to investigate further.

    I don't feel like this should be all that complicated to fix, it's just a matter of me being able to get to where I need to get so I can properly diagnose... and then fix!

    3 weeks later
    #42 1 year ago

    Well, my friend wanted me to just bring it over so I tried putting the bank back in and retesting,hoping it would at least be back where it was. It cycled through the reset routines a few times and then went dark. Completely dead (as it was when I bought it) again. Going to actually replace the fuse holders and see where that gets me i guess. Fuses were all good.

    Going to order the schematic and try for the coil as well so I can get back to this. I know he'd like to play it sooner rather than later and now that it's at his house I've got a clock on making it happen. Doh.

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