(Topic ID: 243833)

Bally Sea Ray adv bonus - ball in play problems

By GeneralP

4 years ago


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#1 4 years ago

Hello Pinsiders,

I'm starting a new post for an old issue/ post I started a couple of years ago, which was patched/ fixed with jumper wires but not fully fixed and I've been looking again at issue.

Old problem.... ball in play changes if a point is hit to energize the Ball Index RE and ball drains. IF any ADV Bonus is hit and ball drains (w/o collecting Bonus) Bonus resets and stays on same ball.

Running various jumper wires between switches on Ball Index RE and Extra Ball RE, I have isolated issue as ALMOST resolved by jumping the R-G to BLU-O switch as always closed on the Ball Index RE... except, through the jumper wire hack after 2 years, it ALWAYS starts at Ball 2, skips ball one.

Looking at the issue again, below are the steps I see.... it seems the Ball Index doesn't stay held through process.... Or should be triggered again at the end,.

---------------
Ball drains (with not collected Bonus to reset to 1000 insert light)

Bonus Reset RE pulls in once
*Ball Index releases*
Bonus Reset RE pulls in again to finish reset of disc
Bonus Zero RE pulls in (from zero switch via the bonus unit disc)
Outhole RE pulls in
Ball is kicked out into shooter lane.
Ball in Play stays the same

---------------

I'm thinking it's a Ball index relay issue since it releases prematurely before end of sequence, but in the schematic, there are so many points tied to that, not sure where else to look.

#2 4 years ago

Hi GeneralP
Yes, You have (at least) one problem - "Ball-Index-Relay prematurely quits pulling". Please do the following: Toggle-off the pin, toggle-on, start a game, launch the ball, make some points, take the ball out, lift the playfield - watch the Ball-Index-Relay - it must be pulling - is it pulling ? Then throw-in a big coin into 2nd or 3rd Coin-Chute --- does the Score-Motor turns and the pin adds some Credits to the Replay-Counter (but does not start a new game) ? And the Ball-Index-Relay - still pulling ? Greetings Rolf

#3 4 years ago

Hi Rolf,

How have you been? It's been a couple of years.

Results to questions:
(I had machine set to free play but adj switch on Credit Wheel for test for actual U.S. Dimes in 3rd Chute)

If I toggle off after Game Over, Then toggle power on...

1.0 When 22 Credits on Wheel, hitting front button runs reset sequence, resets all like it should and decrements once credit to show 21 credits on wheel
1.1 make any 10 or 100 point and Ball-Index-RE stays in (held)

2. lift playfield and add coin... using 3rd Coin Chute

2.0 - Credit wheel stays the same at 22 credits (except front button does nothing to add number 2 player, coin added will
2.1 - Score motor turns
2.2 - Ball Index Relay releases
2.3 - Total Play Meter advances
2.4 - Does Not Start a New game
2.5 - Players in backglass changes to 2 Player mode
2.6 - Ball Index Relay stays released until a new point is made.

I did notice 2 things during testing:

AAA. Back Player Interlock relay is Not locking and releasing like it should.
AAA.2 = In 2 Player mode after 2nd coin is inserted, Ball Count Unit Disc DOES NOT skip twice, meaning it does one step but player 2 isn't lighting (2nd coin unit is not locking/ releasing)

BBB. My stepper units in back for Ball Count Unit and Credit Wheel could be smoother (cleaned) but I doubt issue as they are stepping properly

Same issues I had for free play setting except manually putting in a coin/ Dime.

James

#4 4 years ago

Hi James
by now I am doing quite well again - had some health problems. Thanks for doing the test mentioned in post-2. Your pin at least has one fault - the Ball-Index-Relay quits pulling when the Score-Motor makes a turn of 180 degrees.
Theory - see the JPG - You start a new game - then launch the ball - You make some points - one of "my red 1" switches close and make the Coil (red 2) pull-in means the armature on the Ball-Index-Relay moves - all switches on the relay actuate - so "my red 3" closes and by this establishes "Self-Hold-Current to the coil" --- when we are playing a ball then the Outhole-Relay is not yet pulling means switch "my red 4" is closed. Whenever the Score-Motor is not turning then "my red 5" is closed --- whenever a feature (like ball rolls into top hole) calls for help of a turn of 180 degrees of the motor: The turning motor opens "my red 5" at a time --- no problem for the Ball-Index-Relay: It stays pulling because the Outhole-Relay is not pulling, switch "my red 4" is closed. And here is a fault in Your pin: Wires to and/or switch bad, "my red 4" is not closed (when the Outhole-Relay is not pulling) - please investigate.
Further on in theory - we play the ball, make points, Ball-Index-Relay is steady pulling, we loose the ball, bonus is counted down - then the pins comes to step-up on the ball and/or player: The Outhole-Relay pulls-in, calls for help of a turn of the motor (see encircled orange) - stepping is now done "(maybe motor-3 and) motor-4" --- at this time the Ball-Index-Relay must be still pulling (so current can flow). In Your pin after loosing the ball - the bonus is counted down - this needs the help of the motor (turn) - switch "my red-5" is entitled to open - BUT switch "my red 4" does faulty not keep the Ball-Index-Relay to stay. (((In a running Sea Ray: ... "(maybe motor-3 and) motor-4" does the stepping then "motor-6, my red-5" makes the Ball-Index-Relay to quit pulling.

I would like to talk about Your (post-3) 2.5, 2.6, AAA, AAA.2, BBB and "my request for coining up" after fixing the "Ball-Index-Problem means problem 'my red 4 switch and its wiring' ". Greetings Rolf

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#5 4 years ago

Hi Rolf,

Glad to hear you are better-good, I also had health issues and better now too.

I went ahead and cleaned/ rebuilt both of the Credit and Ball Count Stepper Units right after my last post as they were 'Sticky and slow'...

After receiving your response, I noticed that only the 10 point RE was energizing and holding the Ball Index Relay (because during testing, I lift the playfield and hit a 'Point' but easiest to hit gently and trigger is a 10 Point

Thinking I figured it out by 1000 point made not locking Ball Index and main issue is the 1000 x bonus not being collected before ball drain, I cleaned and adjusted the 100 & 1000 point switches (Green/ White - Yellow) going to the Ball Index Relay. That did fix the Ball Index RE holding on all points made (10, 100 & 1000)

but main issue still persists....

1. If Advance Bonus targets are hit and not collected before ball drain....
2. Bonus Reset steps Bonus disc down
3. Ball Index relay stays held... until
4. Outhole Relay Pulls in
5. Ball Index Relay releases before the Outhole Relay.

Looking at your suggestions, I held finger to the Ball Index Relay during the Ball Drain Reset and it does move ball in play

Let me get through all schematic areas you mentioned, I'll look at that SCM 6 switch and Outhole RE again and will let you know result of testings.

Thanks again!
James

#6 4 years ago

Hello Rolf,

Many thanks, I'm getting closer....After unscrewing the switch stack 6 from SCM last night, suddenly the issue went away..... non-collected bonus was changing ball in play again because score motor was not opening the 6C SCM..... going further, I put score motor switch back in, same problem, but I then jumped the Outhole relay orange-R to Yellow switches (in line to the Ball Index Relay) and game is playing fine now, ball index holds in until outhole ejects ball, ball in play changes... for a one player game.

Not fixed yet but working backwards (or forwards) , I'm getting closer to main issue, one switch at a time in circuit

At least this old issue is temp isolated. (starts at a 1 ball now), but need to figure out why keeping that outhole switch Relay closed as it's not a true fix.

I'm thinking SCM switches 3 and 4 to look at next but any ideas, I would appreciate.

JMP

#7 4 years ago

Hi James
the last couple of days I did not have much time for pinside troubleshooting --- I happen to forget --- I would like to resume - please give a description "non-functioning feature to look-at". Greetings Rolf

1 week later
#8 4 years ago

Hi Rolf,

It's okay, I didn't have much time either until a few days ago and have been troubleshooting since.

So, When I jumped the one Outhole Switch closed (Orange/Red - Yellow) and ball in play was changing (if no advance bonus was collected before a ball drain) as it normally should, I noticed 2 things.

1. When the bonus was collected (during ball was in play), the 1000 points would roll the score wheels but the bell wouldn't ring (not a big deal)
2. The reason it was working was because once any point was made, the 10, 100 or 1000 Point relay would activate, they would in turn energize the Ball Index Relay AND KEEP IT HELD like the Lock Relay until Game Over...since that Outhole Switch was always closed and never would re-Open (It's normally closed) to release the Ball Index Relay.

The past several days, I've been methodically going through all switches in your diagram of the 3 areas (results are attached). Plus, I began going through Top Right of the Schematic power source rail and looking at switches before the main issue (Ball Index RE).

My findings:

1. No broken wires off of switches that I can find (I heard about looking at wires behind the Bonus Disc... but don't see anything loose with lights and DMM testing) nothing touching/ shorting the circuit out. Using a DMM also on certain wires just to see if there is a solid connection (no half broken wires between joints within old fabric insulation) and getting strong readings

2. From your highlighted schematic, the 2nd Coin Chute Relay isn't closing/ energizing.... I plan on looking at the switch that activates that and/or desoldering the Relay Coil to check the resistance if that is tied to everything like your comments shown in Blue

3. Now the weird thing... the 3 Tilt switches that should be NO..... the playfield and left side of cab Tilts are both open and working but the one on the bottom of the cab doesn't match the wire diagram's colors and was always closed. Once I unscrewed that Tilt Switch and opened it, the GI lights died. It looks like Green/Black - Yellow/Blk (or G-B & Y-G... hard to tell). I did notice some electrical tape on one, but the same colors go into the wire harness for all of the left side Relays.

4. subsequently, the Front Door Slam Switch does not affect anything and is NC as it should be.

Oh, one more thing.... The AdV Bonus Relay (to step the bonus disc) is Blue Arching on each switch, but works fine, checked and cleaned.... it just looks like Tesla is having fun.

James

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#9 4 years ago

Hi James
we may have to write several posts to look at all You have written in post-8.

I pick the "blue arching on each switch on Bonus-Advance-Relay" --- I love the late(r) Williams EM-Pin documentation - each relay with all its switches are shown in the manual. I like Gottlieb documentation - on the schematics are lists of relays, to each relay comes the information (example) QQ-Relay, 4A, 2B, 1C - I then can search the schematics for FOUR Normally-Open-Switches (on QQ-Relay), can search for TWO Normally-Closed-Switches (), can search for the ONE threebladed-Make-and-Break-Switch (). I do not like the Bally documentation - no information on "how many switches on a specific relay". Please look up in Your pin, count and tell me HOW many switches are mounted on the "Bonus-Advance-Relay" ? --- WITH the number of switches I then can search the schematics until I find ALL these switches - and we then discuss the switches.
In general I do not like blue arching --- I try to reduce the arching by "cleaning contact-points on the switchblades, adjust the gapping to 'normal, nice operation' ".

I pick the "weird thing, Tilt-Switches". Your pin should have on the mech. panel down in the cabinet an so-called "Kick-Off-Switch". Your pin has an main power-toggle-on/off-Switch, Your pin has an "Front-Door-Anti-Cheat-Slam-Tilt-Switch", weighted, Normally-Closed to produce an "severe Tilt". Your pin has (should have) the lovely feature "pressing the left Flipper-Button turns on the lights". Your pin has three (Normally-Open) Tilt-Switches - when one closes then the Tilt-Relay pulls-in and we loose "Ball in Play" (I call this a minor Tilt). We owners of the pins are nice and friendly - we may shake a bit too much and we have a minor Tilt --- we never bang on the Coin Door producing an severe Tilt (means the lights go off and we loose all remaning balls for all participating player - we must press the left Flipper-Button (again), we must start a new game).
Think back into the arcade times - in the evening when closing: The operator walks from pin to pin toggling-off the main power switch - OR HE COULD have banged onto the coin door producing an severe Tilt (pin looks like toggled-off) OR HE COULD (slightly) banged his fist upward onto the plywood on the bottom of the pin - at the place where the "Kick-Off-Switch" is mounted on the mech. panel in the cabinet. A bolt then jumps upwards and opens the Kick-Off-Switch --- the pin does the same reaction as "banging on the coin door" --- the effects are equal - only the purposes are different (hammering on the coin door is trying to cheat - punished by a severe tilt / slightly banging upwards onto the plywood rewarded with "kind of toggling off, looking toggled-off".
I strongly suggest: Never use that Kick-Off-Switch - think of it as beeing an "Severe Tilt switch like the front door slam switch" - always have the Kick-Off-Switch permanently closed - simply always do toggle-off the main power-switch.
See the first JPG - the mech. panel of my Shangri La --- at "my B" You see the "Kick-Off-Switch" mounted and on "my C" You see the switch taken away and we see the bolt that jumps up when we bang upwards from underneath. My Shangri La does NOT have an main power toggle switch - on my Shangri La I regularly use this Kick-Off-Switch for to "toggle-off the pin".

Severe Tilt switches like coin door anti cheat switch - also Kick-Off-Switch do the same - they cut Self-Hold-Circuitry of the steady pulling Lock-Relay - the Lock-Relay let go and switches open - switches for the illumination. We then (must) press the left flipper button and something maybe not well-known happens: The Game-Over-Relay is made to TRIP - then when we press the Start-Button: A NEW game does start.

James - I look at the schematics of Sea Ray and I am very frustrated - for example the Bally Amigo functions as "written in my text above" - (I am frustrated) but the Bally Sea Ray Coin Door Anti-Cheat-Switch does NOT cut the Self-Hold-Circuitry on Lock-Relay" - please use "my text above" as an description "often it works like that" ...

Back to "Sea Ray" - see the second JPG: We toggle-on the main power switch - the Lock-Relay is not (yet) pulling, "switch my red 1" is closed --- the Game-Over-Relay maybe is already tripped from the game before - or then: Through "red-1" the Game-Over-Relay (red-2) is made to trip and so opens "red-3" - this hinders to get feeded the coil all the time. We then press the left flipper button (red-4) - the Lock-Relay (red-5) pulls-in, closes "Self-Hold-Switch red-6", closes (red-7 and red-8) switches for the lights.
When we bang onto the plywood and bolt jumps up and so Kick-off-Switch (red-9) opens: The Lock-Relay "let go", "red-6 and red-7 and red-8" open and the pin looks like toggled-off.

Bally schematics are "not easy to look at" - folded in a strange way - my "AA" in the JPG is like original in the schematics - my "BB" is just mirrowed - please look at "my BB".

James - I did "lenghty writing" (I hope interesting writing) --- please write what You would like to "look at next" - maybe we stick to the "switch on the bottom of cabinet" You show in the last two pictures in post-8 --- how about "have this switch closed all the times - and proceed in trouble-shooting" (?) Greetings Rolf

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#10 4 years ago

Hi Rolf,

Yes, I completely agree with you regarding Bally Schematics, and especially my Sea Ray. Reading my friend's EM Gottlieb and Williams schematics makes so much more sense to me... to both of us. He's lost when he tries to help me with my Bally and he is of no use. I'm currently in market for an inexpensive EM Gottlieb (I was 30 minutes too late to purchase a good condition $300 Central Park locally recently). Plus, I'd like an EM with more production numbers, not as rare (more people with them if

Yes, very interesting writing, thank you! I work in technology DBA/ scripting developer, so working on these old, amazing machines is fun for me... almost as fun as playing them.

Well, I am still having issues with the Ball in Play not changing when bonus isn't being collected without the jumper wires on the one switch on the OutHole.

1. I've gone through all switches in your schematic snapshots, checked the 2nd Coin Chute Relay (fine), rebuild the Bonus stepper Unit yesterday (it was working but sticky)
2. Replaced SCM switch 4B as it was well worn (I bought a cheap Bally complete score motor years ago with all switches in good but dusty condition)
3. While rebuilding the Bonus Stepper unit, I remembered when the bonus unit resets, it steps back one (1000 light goes off) and closes to energize the Bonus Zero Relay, which is the main power supply Relay to the Bonus Reset, Extra Ball and Ball Index Relays.

One thing I seem to remember is the Tilt Relay would energize once during a lost ball sequence, so I'll dig around today on the Tilt path... especially since there is that Tilt switch on the Ball Count Unit Step Up coil.

I'll let you know later

Thanks again!
James

1 week later
#12 4 years ago

Thank You Rolf,

Just getting a chance to look at machine further today since my last post and I'll read through the links you sent. YES! This may help me with current flow of the yellow power lead.

Day of after my last post, I did find and solve another issue I didn't even mention regarding a 2 player game acting strange. There were 2 switches on the 2nd Coin Unit (Latch/ Trip) I accidentally flipped backwards upon cleaning...one open, one closed when should have been reversed and that fixed a few strange issues on a 2 player game. THEN upon removal of latch/trip in head of machine there was also one coil with a black power wire that looked fine during inspection but as soon as I removed the coil, the wire fell apart at the joint, so that was fixed.

Since then, I looked at the tilt switches and Tilt Relay. There is something going on there but I don't knock machine around to worry about them....

I'm uploading a video to youtube of the relay sequence, and how the ball index releases during the second 180 degree turn of the SCM.

#13 4 years ago

Kind of a hack, but resolved issue for the time being related to this issue bonus not collected/ ball in play issue.

I jumped the BLU-O & R-G switch on the tilt relay, the switch in line to the Ball Count Unit Step Up Coil (ball in play stepper coil) and is also parallel to Ball Index Relay Switch (Also, BLU-O & R-G) and the machine is working MOSTLY like it should! Banging the 2 working tilts still creates a TILT, the one Tilt switch at bottom of the cabinet that somehow is a GI with wires that don't match Schematics is still a strange one, but I won't worry about for now.

I'll open some new posts moving forward.

Not finished as upon looking closely, I noticed there are 2 hold switches on 2 relays which are thinner than the other hold sw (from previous owner) one that is like a loose noodle is the Bonus Zero RE

Thanks Rolf!
James

1 week later
#14 4 years ago

Just an update on the real fix to this issue for anyone troubleshooting....

I found issue as being the OutHole switch in circuit to the Ball Index Relay and SCM #6. My problem switch was the NC BLU-O & Yellow on the OutHole Relay

Using a DMM, it showed as closed and looked as such, but troubleshooting score motor switches, Bonus Reset, Bonus Zero, Extra Ball, etc. I developed my own method on those switches that always read a current.

1. Find all switches NC in line from schematic (make sure the NO are open)
2. Cut up a piece of cardstock/ business card in strips
3. Place paper in between the other NC switches in circuit you aren't testing
4. Test the suspect NC switch with a DMM

I didn't get any reading as mine was dirty and misadjusted, just took a minute and back in business!!!!

What was most frustrating is ball in play changed if SCM didn't move before OutHole energized, so Ball would change numbers, but because that one switch wasn't holding the Ball Index Relay when the SCM #6 opened, the Ball Index RE would release and Ball in Play would stay the same when Outhole kicked in and ball out.

Thanks Rolf for all of your help! Issue was right under my nose!

James

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