(Topic ID: 254131)

Bally reset bank - clutch fix?

By DCP

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 64 posts
  • 23 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by MarkG
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Which part(s) do you need for your On Beam or Bowl-O clutch?”

  • Outer cam 1 vote
    9%
  • Spring 1 vote
    9%
  • Small cam on end 2 votes
    18%
  • Steel spring clutch (if original is not repairable - may only need spring) 1 vote
    9%
  • Whole enchilada 6 votes
    55%

(Multiple choice - 11 votes by 7 Pinsiders)

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#1 4 years ago

Fixing a nice On Beam...one of the clutches on the reset bank is falling apart. Has anyone found a replacement for those? Does anyone have a parts catalog that shows the relay reset assembly? Game is On Beam, there are a few others that use the motorized relay reset mech. There are some parts common with bingos, but not the clutches apparently. First pic is the left clutch which appears intact. The other one is electrical taped and falling apart. Maybe some kind of industrial replacement is available...any ideas?
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#4 4 years ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

http://bingo.cdyn.com/paper/
Pg 38-39 of the green book shows the trip bank. Item 16 appears to be the 'reset cam adapter' and might be the right part? Regardless, perhaps the exploded diagram will completely rule out bingo parts.

It looks like On Beam can lock part of the reset shaft so not all relays get reset every time the motor runs. The clutch allows part of the shaft to keep turning. Unless there's a bingo that does that, it's a unique pinball part. The reset cams look the same and would probably work in a pinball that needed them. I'll try to repair mine, and keep looking for a replacement!

#6 4 years ago

Hmmm, we must be blocked from seeing those documents in the US. Can you post a screen shot of it somehow?

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

I was able to view it.[quoted image]

Looks close, but not quite like my photos. Is there another later catalog that shows it?

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from astyy:

I'm familiar with this mechanism on my Rocket III too, which is a clutch version separating a group of feature light relays from reset functions. On Beam differences are covered in the 1971 parts catalog, you need Flash to view in your browser (still works in Chrome), which is being generally withdrawn so hopefully other versions of these manuals are out there.
There's also some general service info in the Bally "Introduction to Flipper Games" manual.
http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1971/index.html#/52/zoomed
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Thanks everyone, I did get Flash to work so I could see the 1971 Bally parts catalog on planetarypinball that astyy just showed. You can see that the clutch for On Beam is unique, unfortunately! It looks like the Rocket III clutch has no cams on it. Bally part number A-3379-1, Clutch Assy is the correct part with two "cam"-looking things, I think one is a cam and the other is the stop. Bowl-O uses A-3379, which the catalog says is "similar in appearance". So, it's unobtanium until someone makes one. I'll try to fix mine for now unless someone has one lying around in their parts box!

OnBeamClutchAssembly (resized).jpgOnBeamClutchAssembly (resized).jpg
4 weeks later
#16 4 years ago

I managed to thrash my arthritic fingers into making a CAD model of the On Beam clutch assembly. Once I get the dimensions all tweaked in, I'm going to get some parts 3D printed! Right now, I only need the larger plastic cam piece (far left) to get my machine running, but I want to be able to reproduce the entire clutch assembly (both plastic cams and the steel clutch). The steel spring clutch is a neat simple design...I was able to get my seized-up one disassembled and cleaned up, but the spring is unsprung - might be able to rewind it. I'd love to repro the spring also, and have the whole assembly available.
I will post again when I get parts

OnBeamClutchAssy (resized).pngOnBeamClutchAssy (resized).png
2 weeks later
#18 4 years ago

Update on the On Beam clutch rebuild project: 3D printed parts are supposed to be here Monday...I'll install and test them as soon as they get here. I will post a full report showing how to disassemble/assemble the clutches, and the various problems I've encountered and tried to solve.
If you saved your 3D glasses from Pinball Life, check out this 3D view of the On Beam clutch assembly. The part in the foreground of the first picture that's sticking out of your screen is the one I am getting Monday. I will be making at least a small batch of all parts including the spring - there are actually five parts to be repro'd in the assembly, plus a snap ring which we can buy or reuse. I also added a poll to this thread to get an idea how many of each part people might be needing. Stay tuned!
WhiteBkgrd3DClutch (resized).pngWhiteBkgrd3DClutch (resized).png
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#19 4 years ago

A view of the assembly without the 3D effect in case you have no red/cyan glasses:

No3DClutchAssy (resized).pngNo3DClutchAssy (resized).png
#21 4 years ago

<tired> Got my 3D-printed parts today and assembled my two On Beam clutches...I think they will work. The spring is a real pain if it has been unsprung like mine was. I got it rewound close enough that the clutch works. The other spring was fine, so now I have 2 working clutches!
The spring has to be just right for the clutch action to work. I spent all day messing with the things, and really got my hands sore...friggin' arthritis is a bitch.
The 3D-printed parts did need a little razorblade scraping to fit, but overall they were damn close. They look like they will be plenty strong for the application.
I used FreeCAD to model the parts, and sent .STL files to JawsTec in Idaho for printing. Only beef I have is how long it takes to get the parts. You can get materials and processes that aren't generally available for home 3D printing. I used MJF (Multi Jet Fusion) Nylon for these. They also have ABS, which I'm trying on some other parts, and other materials including sintered metals. Pretty awesome technology. I used to use 3D printed parts in my engineering days in the 90s, but they were not useable as "real" parts, only as models...the material was too fragile.
(black parts are the new 3D-printed outer cams)

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#22 4 years ago

Played a couple games of On Beam today! Game has a few minor issues, but the reset bank clutches are working fine. Both are using the 3D printed outer cams. Fun game with a unique backglass animation that gives you points and lights the extra ball...
Here's a picture of the complete reset bank cam assembly before I installed it. I'm very familiar with the assembly and operation of this unit now if anyone has any questions - hopefully I can help others get their clutches fixed.

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#23 4 years ago

Received more Unobtanium in the mail today
Next step is to take the reset assembly apart again and replace the remaining original parts with these. My originals weren't broken, so I'll save those as prototypes/spares. Then I'll play a lot of On Beam to see how the new parts hold up!

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#25 4 years ago

The shape of things to come...On Beam Reset Cam Assembly v2.0. Cam surfaces widened for more strength. Allowances made for 3D printing fill-in of small details. Hopefully will be awesome.

NewOnBeamClutchAssembly.gifNewOnBeamClutchAssembly.gif
3 months later
#29 4 years ago
Quoted from DanLewell:

I think this clutch is used in King Tut as well.
I'm fixing one of those up at the minute, so might be in touch if the clutch on that is knackered.

Quoted from emspence:

Working on a King Tut here too that I picked up a couple days ago. Plastic cam is bad, attempting other hacks to tighten it down, but if you decide to sell these or share files, please let me know! Thanks for tackling such a vital, but missing part, looks great!

I have been trying to find out as much as I can about this group of Bally games including On Beam, Bowl-O, Joust, Rocket III, King Tut/King Rex and others that use a similar reset bank with a clutch. It looks like they all use different cam assemblies. A lot of the parts of the cam assembly are identical to those on Bally bingo reset banks, but unfortunately the bingos never used clutches.
Most Bally pinball reset cams, including King Tut, only use one clutch, and those definitely are different from On Beam. They may be the same internally. You can't just "tighten it down" - the clutch action has to work, it's a little hard to explain how it works - I'll do a video eventually. There is an outer collar that twists slightly one way to unlock and allow the clutch to be able to slip on the shaft. When it springs back, it locks to the shaft and turns when the shaft turns.
On King Tut, it unlocks to allow the score motor to turn without resetting the relays. It probably only locks at the end of a ball and the end of a game when the relays need to be reset. On Beam can reset each half of the relay bank independently during a ball, and has a separate score motor and reset bank motor. They were mechanical madmen at Bally in those days.
My broken On Beam clutch was glued and taped, which made it impossible for the clutch to work. If you just do that, it may unwind the spring (see below where I talk about my seized clutch).
There's a steel 2-piece spring clutch inside the On Beam cam assembly, and the spring has to be perfect for the clutch to work. My spring-making project is on the back burner right now, but eventually I will figure out how to wind them. I bought a roll of .040" music wire, so I can wind hundreds of them once I figure out how.
Take some good pictures of your cams if you can. If you take them apart, I'd really like to see what the steel clutch looks like inside. If it's the same, we should get a few made by a machine shop.
If the parts are similar to On Beam, it might not be too hard to modify my CAD model if I could borrow a King Tut clutch assembly to look at it and measure. I do it old-school, no 3-D scanner, just measure with calipers and do a sketch on paper first, then make the CAD model.
I took the whole reset cam assembly apart and cleaned everything up - it needed it. Anyone with a working game that uses a motorized relay reset bank should inspect the clutches carefully to make sure they can turn freely and operate properly. If the steel clutch gets some corrosion in it and seizes up, you have big trouble! On Beam has a snap ring and 2 roll pins that had to be removed to disassemble the cam shaft. Both metal clutches were stuck to the shaft and hard to get off. After cleaning up with solvent and 0000 steel wool, everything slides on and turns freely.
Mine looks like the clutch seized, causing the spring to be overtorqued and "sprung". I have tried to rewind it, and got it really close, but it has to be perfect for the clutch engage/disengage action to work. That one spring is keeping my On Beam from working properly right now...
Spring clutches are pretty cool little devices, actually. I tried to find a commercial replacement, and there isn't anything the right size. Bally either had them custom-made or bought a clutch that was available at the time, and made the plastic pieces themselves. Someone with a lathe could whip those out easily, and probably do the springs, too. I don't have any machine shop buddies nearby these days...
We're very close to having this totally figured out. A solid replacement for these clutches will bring back a bunch of games from this important Bally era!

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Thanks for all of the work you are doing and documenting here!
I have been working on an On Beam that is having reset bank issues. Sometimes the motor pauses before a full rotation and sometimes the motor spins but the cams don’t move.
I am totally lost on how this device is put together and how it works. I would love to see a video of it being disassembled/reassembled and the inner workings explained.

Motor pausing before a full rotation could be one of the 3 switches that runs the reset motor (see schematic), Motor Trip Relay switch, #1 Reset Motor switch, and #2 Reset Motor switch. I think the last two are the ones that are activated by the 2 brown bakelite disks on the cam shaft.
If the motor spins and the cams don't move, the clutch is FUNCTIONING! There is a relay on each group of cams that locks and unlocks the clutch (I think the "Outhole Relay" and "Motor Trip Relay" are the clutch relays). If you fix the switches in your first question, the other part might be working. Take a video and show us.
It is hard to understand from the exploded diagrams. You pretty much have to take the whole cam shaft assembly apart and clean everything to make sure it's not sticking.
I will do a video before too long showing what I've found so far.

OnBeamResetMotorSwitches (resized).pngOnBeamResetMotorSwitches (resized).png
#32 4 years ago
1 month later
#36 3 years ago

Svendtube Yes, you take off that clip and there is a spring and a steel collar that come off. Make sure everything is clean, and that the clutch only turns freely in one direction when it's assembled. When you turn it the other way, there should be no backlash before it starts turning the shaft. If there is, the problem is most likely the spring. I still haven't made springs yet...been a bit busy. I took the clutches off the shaft by punching out the roll pins, but you don't need to do that unless you want to steel-wool the whole shaft to get it super clean. It did make it easier to take all the parts including both clutches off of the shaft.
When the clutch is assembled, it should look just like the parts book picture - emspence 's King Tut clutch (second picture) does not look right. That one looks like the spring has come unwound partially. You can see the cams on the clutch are at a wider angle than the picture from the parts book. It's possible that King Tut's clutch sits at a different angle, but it's hard to say...looks "sprung" to me. It's 180 degrees off of the On Beam one...hmmm, maybe on purpose. What does the other one look like?
The plastic parts in both of your machines look fine, but PM me your address and I'll send you some free 3D printed nylon parts to try out if you want 'cuz that's how Pinside works . I put my effort into repro'ing the plastic parts because I had some broken ones, but it turns out the spring is the hardest thing to do! If we can ever wind springs, we can completely rebuild the On Beam and maybe some King Tut, Joust and other relay cams.
OnBeamClutchOrientationPartsBook (resized).pngOnBeamClutchOrientationPartsBook (resized).pngSprungKingTutClutch (resized).pngSprungKingTutClutch (resized).png

5 months later
#39 3 years ago
Quoted from emspence:

dcp - well, finally dug took apart the clutch assembly today. Spring was indeed stretched out some, which gave a lot of play in the reset cams after the tab had been caught.

Great pics, emspence ! PM'd you about the cams I'm sending to you also.
This is the first time I have seen the clutch in another machine. It looks identical - now we need to find a Pinsider with a lathe who would like to turn some simple steel parts for us. I may put out a call on a new thread for that - I have drawings and a CAD model of the two steel clutch parts already. I've never been able to find a spring clutch that exact size in any mechanical parts catalogs. It may have been custom-made for Bally.
New steel clutch, new springs, and new cams would make a nice "rebuild kit" for a lot of these cam-reset Ballys. I'd better get on it!

6 months later
#46 2 years ago
Quoted from Wizbangdoodle:Should be able to make the cam lobes and many other parts I would think

I hope you try making the clutch spring! That's the one critical part I've been unable to make.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from baldtwit:

what dimensions/specs did you come up with for the torsion spring?

The critical dimension of the spring is the inside diameter 0.620". It is wound from .040" music wire, also known as 17.5 gauge wire. The spring would need to be wound onto a 0.495" diameter mandrel (bar) for it to spring back to 0.620.
I'll have to dig around to find the rest of the dimensions, or I'll just remeasure it.
We need to get those springs made!!! Those seem to be more of a problem than the plastic clutch parts themselves.

No3DClutchAssy (resized).pngNo3DClutchAssy (resized).png
8 months later
#51 2 years ago

I just want to apologize to anyone that wanted copies of my On Beam clutch parts. I'm unable to deal with any pinball related stuff right now. I'm not sending out any more 3D-printed parts, and I really don't want to share the files for them (there are still a few problems, and they are really not ready for distribution yet).
If I can get the clutch springs made correctly, I will post that info here.
To my close friends, all is basically OK, but I'm completely overwhelmed with all of the problems and projects that I have going on right now.
DCP

1 year later
#53 10 months ago

Hi, Mark - my apologies for being unresponsive about this. I found that the key component of the clutch is the spring. If the spring is not the exact size, and in perfect condition, the clutch will never work properly. The springs are not available anywhere as far as I can tell. If someone could wind them properly, many of us could use them. The steel clutch parts will probably never wear out - the spring is the show-stopper.
I really don't know if I will ever be able to dedicate any time and energy to working on this again. My time is filled up with dealing with my decrepit buildings and my girlfriend's and my poor health. Pinball falls to the wayside when you are dealing with depression and physical problems.
My 3D-printed clutch parts will work if you have broken plastic clutch parts, but you need to have good springs (unlikely if the clutch has ever failed and overwound the spring). I also discovered that my new plastic parts don't allow enough endplay for the clutch to work without a bunch of hand fitting.
I could probably send you the CAD files I made for this assembly if you think you might want to try to move this project forward yourself.
I'm sorry I can't be more helpful right now.

#56 10 months ago

Here's a Google Drive link to a zip of all my On Beam files (about 7MB). The STL files are in the folder called "Output Files".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vB66mTIWJw_9ZqCLcFgcdhLGN_oQ7Gvx/view?usp=drive_link
If you download and install FreeCAD from https://www.freecad.org/, you can open and modify any of the .FCStd files, and view the exploded assemblies that I created. You can also create new STL files with your modifications, so you can 3D print your new versions. I highly recommend FreeCAD. It is very similar to Solid Works and other commercial CAD programs.

"I hereby donate my On Beam FreeCAD and STL files to any Pinsider who wants to help with the Bally Clutch Project!"

NOTE: Unless your plastic cams are broken and your clutch spring is in near-perfect condition, these parts will NOT fix your game! You also will need to adjust the endplay of the whole assembly. Mine fit too tightly and I ground down some of the other cams to create some endplay. The long-bodied cams are a common part found in all Bally bingos, so don't worry about grinding those down to fit. There are lots of them around.
It's more than likely you will still need to figure out how to wind new springs. The steel clutch inner and outer parts would be fairly easy for someone to make on a lathe. I don't really think you could make a clutch with a plastic body and a steel spring that would last very long.

1 week later
#57 9 months ago

I just want to make sure that MarkAnderson , edednedy , and Thrillhouse saw that I posted the CAD files for the On Beam clutch assembly (in the post right before this one).
It would be great if someone would take up this project where I left off. I may be able to answer some questions about it, but I'm not able to continue working on it right now.
We need someone who can make the springs! A functioning repro clutch mechanism will depend on a custom-made spring that has to match the original exactly. The clutch has to turn freely in one direction, and lock up solidly in the other. If the shaft turns the other direction, even a little bit, the timing is off and it won't work.
It's a finicky and difficult Bally mechanism that unfortunately has "bricked" a number of interesting old games.

#60 9 months ago
Quoted from emspence:

I feel bad for never trying to swap them in

Send them to someone else on here that needs them!

6 months later
#63 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Not a clutch fix but I needed some of the reset cams for my On Beam.

I'm pretty sure those parts can be salvaged out of Bally bingos. The motors and other parts are similar, too. The only thing the bingos lack is a clutch like On Beam and the others of that era.
I could sell you a whole bingo for parts for $75, but you have to come pick it up 8).

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