(Topic ID: 254131)

Bally reset bank - clutch fix?

By DCP

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 49 posts
  • 18 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 52 days ago by alveolus
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Which part(s) do you need for your On Beam or Bowl-O clutch?”

  • Outer cam 1 vote
    13%
  • Spring 1 vote
    13%
  • Small cam on end 2 votes
    25%
  • Steel spring clutch (if original is not repairable - may only need spring) 1 vote
    13%
  • Whole enchilada 3 votes
    38%

(Multiple choice - 8 votes by 4 Pinsiders)

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#1 1 year ago

Fixing a nice On Beam...one of the clutches on the reset bank is falling apart. Has anyone found a replacement for those? Does anyone have a parts catalog that shows the relay reset assembly? Game is On Beam, there are a few others that use the motorized relay reset mech. There are some parts common with bingos, but not the clutches apparently. First pic is the left clutch which appears intact. The other one is electrical taped and falling apart. Maybe some kind of industrial replacement is available...any ideas?
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#2 1 year ago

The reset bank is similar in design to 70s bingos - motorized with arms that reset each relay. I don't recall what the clutch/bushing looks like on those (I've been meaning to compare to the later EM flippers), but I would suspect that 3D printing would be right for that job?

#3 1 year ago

http://bingo.cdyn.com/paper/

Pg 38-39 of the green book shows the trip bank. Item 16 appears to be the 'reset cam adapter' and might be the right part? Regardless, perhaps the exploded diagram will completely rule out bingo parts.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from bingopodcast:

http://bingo.cdyn.com/paper/
Pg 38-39 of the green book shows the trip bank. Item 16 appears to be the 'reset cam adapter' and might be the right part? Regardless, perhaps the exploded diagram will completely rule out bingo parts.

It looks like On Beam can lock part of the reset shaft so not all relays get reset every time the motor runs. The clutch allows part of the shaft to keep turning. Unless there's a bingo that does that, it's a unique pinball part. The reset cams look the same and would probably work in a pinball that needed them. I'll try to repair mine, and keep looking for a replacement!

#6 1 year ago

Hmmm, we must be blocked from seeing those documents in the US. Can you post a screen shot of it somehow?

#7 1 year ago

I was able to view it.

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#8 1 year ago

I was able to view it.

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#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

I was able to view it.[quoted image]

Looks close, but not quite like my photos. Is there another later catalog that shows it?

#10 1 year ago

hi
i think you can find such part on bally rocket III.
bally use this clutch to drive some "palette"(action lever ?) during start sequence. it drive shaft only one sense, then stop the shaft.
i'm not at home before two days, but i can send pics on my game when i return.
my trouble was a little pin hurt the spring and blessed it.
the shaft is in two parts, and first shaft stop rotate when it make one turn, and second shaft is always turning.
and first "palette" is different than others, as you can see it on your picture.
(sorry for bad english...)
the right axial position is important to obtain good clutching, there is a hole where spring enter to stop rotate.

#11 1 year ago

possible steve young could obtain these part (spring)
let me know if you need some pics.
i could carefully repair my spring
gilles

#12 1 year ago

I'm familiar with this mechanism on my Rocket III too, which is a clutch version separating a group of feature light relays from reset functions. On Beam differences are covered in the 1971 parts catalog, you need Flash to view in your browser (still works in Chrome), which is being generally withdrawn so hopefully other versions of these manuals are out there.

There's also some general service info in the Bally "Introduction to Flipper Games" manual.

http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1971/index.html#/52/zoomed

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#13 1 year ago
Quoted from astyy:

I'm familiar with this mechanism on my Rocket III too, which is a clutch version separating a group of feature light relays from reset functions. On Beam differences are covered in the 1971 parts catalog, you need Flash to view in your browser (still works in Chrome), which is being generally withdrawn so hopefully other versions of these manuals are out there.
There's also some general service info in the Bally "Introduction to Flipper Games" manual.
http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/BLY_Parts_1971/index.html#/52/zoomed
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Thanks everyone, I did get Flash to work so I could see the 1971 Bally parts catalog on planetarypinball that astyy just showed. You can see that the clutch for On Beam is unique, unfortunately! It looks like the Rocket III clutch has no cams on it. Bally part number A-3379-1, Clutch Assy is the correct part with two "cam"-looking things, I think one is a cam and the other is the stop. Bowl-O uses A-3379, which the catalog says is "similar in appearance". So, it's unobtanium until someone makes one. I'll try to fix mine for now unless someone has one lying around in their parts box!

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#14 1 year ago

This thread has got me thinking how does the clutch work, how is the clutch state controlled when the trip relay motor starts? I can't work it out from my Rocket III schematic.

Either way, good luck with the restore, I'd love an On Beam next to Rocket III, if you have one "good" part of the clutch perhaps you can get it 3D print duplicated as somebody mentioned above.

#15 1 year ago

It looks like a clean break. Probably the thinner area gave way from spring pressure. I would remove it, clean it and epoxy it back together. If your careful, you might be able to thicken that area along the edge of that break without interfering with the switches. I've had good success doing things like this with JB Weld.

4 weeks later
#16 1 year ago

I managed to thrash my arthritic fingers into making a CAD model of the On Beam clutch assembly. Once I get the dimensions all tweaked in, I'm going to get some parts 3D printed! Right now, I only need the larger plastic cam piece (far left) to get my machine running, but I want to be able to reproduce the entire clutch assembly (both plastic cams and the steel clutch). The steel spring clutch is a neat simple design...I was able to get my seized-up one disassembled and cleaned up, but the spring is unsprung - might be able to rewind it. I'd love to repro the spring also, and have the whole assembly available.
I will post again when I get parts

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#17 1 year ago

Please keep us updated! Thanks for your effort!

2 weeks later
#18 1 year ago

Update on the On Beam clutch rebuild project: 3D printed parts are supposed to be here Monday...I'll install and test them as soon as they get here. I will post a full report showing how to disassemble/assemble the clutches, and the various problems I've encountered and tried to solve.
If you saved your 3D glasses from Pinball Life, check out this 3D view of the On Beam clutch assembly. The part in the foreground of the first picture that's sticking out of your screen is the one I am getting Monday. I will be making at least a small batch of all parts including the spring - there are actually five parts to be repro'd in the assembly, plus a snap ring which we can buy or reuse. I also added a poll to this thread to get an idea how many of each part people might be needing. Stay tuned!
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#19 1 year ago

A view of the assembly without the 3D effect in case you have no red/cyan glasses:

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#20 1 year ago

Following closely. I ran into this unobtanium part just a month or two ago.

#21 1 year ago

<tired> Got my 3D-printed parts today and assembled my two On Beam clutches...I think they will work. The spring is a real pain if it has been unsprung like mine was. I got it rewound close enough that the clutch works. The other spring was fine, so now I have 2 working clutches!
The spring has to be just right for the clutch action to work. I spent all day messing with the things, and really got my hands sore...friggin' arthritis is a bitch.
The 3D-printed parts did need a little razorblade scraping to fit, but overall they were damn close. They look like they will be plenty strong for the application.
I used FreeCAD to model the parts, and sent .STL files to JawsTec in Idaho for printing. Only beef I have is how long it takes to get the parts. You can get materials and processes that aren't generally available for home 3D printing. I used MJF (Multi Jet Fusion) Nylon for these. They also have ABS, which I'm trying on some other parts, and other materials including sintered metals. Pretty awesome technology. I used to use 3D printed parts in my engineering days in the 90s, but they were not useable as "real" parts, only as models...the material was too fragile.
(black parts are the new 3D-printed outer cams)

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#22 1 year ago

Played a couple games of On Beam today! Game has a few minor issues, but the reset bank clutches are working fine. Both are using the 3D printed outer cams. Fun game with a unique backglass animation that gives you points and lights the extra ball...
Here's a picture of the complete reset bank cam assembly before I installed it. I'm very familiar with the assembly and operation of this unit now if anyone has any questions - hopefully I can help others get their clutches fixed.

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#23 1 year ago

Received more Unobtanium in the mail today
Next step is to take the reset assembly apart again and replace the remaining original parts with these. My originals weren't broken, so I'll save those as prototypes/spares. Then I'll play a lot of On Beam to see how the new parts hold up!

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#24 1 year ago

I'm glad this worked out! It provides hope for other miscellaneous parts that are no longer available. Good work.

#25 1 year ago

The shape of things to come...On Beam Reset Cam Assembly v2.0. Cam surfaces widened for more strength. Allowances made for 3D printing fill-in of small details. Hopefully will be awesome.

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3 months later
#26 1 year ago

I think this clutch is used in King Tut as well.

I'm fixing one of those up at the minute, so might be in touch if the clutch on that is knackered.

#27 1 year ago

Working on a King Tut here too that I picked up a couple days ago. Plastic cam is bad, attempting other hacks to tighten it down, but if you decide to sell these or share files, please let me know! Thanks for tackling such a vital, but missing part, looks great!

#28 1 year ago

It's a pity this thread didnt occur a couple of years ago as I had an offer of an On beam and turned it down due to those clutches being broken and a piece missing too. Still, at least this problem is resolved now.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from DanLewell:

I think this clutch is used in King Tut as well.
I'm fixing one of those up at the minute, so might be in touch if the clutch on that is knackered.

Quoted from emspence:

Working on a King Tut here too that I picked up a couple days ago. Plastic cam is bad, attempting other hacks to tighten it down, but if you decide to sell these or share files, please let me know! Thanks for tackling such a vital, but missing part, looks great!

I have been trying to find out as much as I can about this group of Bally games including On Beam, Bowl-O, Joust, Rocket III, King Tut/King Rex and others that use a similar reset bank with a clutch. It looks like they all use different cam assemblies. A lot of the parts of the cam assembly are identical to those on Bally bingo reset banks, but unfortunately the bingos never used clutches.
Most Bally pinball reset cams, including King Tut, only use one clutch, and those definitely are different from On Beam. They may be the same internally. You can't just "tighten it down" - the clutch action has to work, it's a little hard to explain how it works - I'll do a video eventually. There is an outer collar that twists slightly one way to unlock and allow the clutch to be able to slip on the shaft. When it springs back, it locks to the shaft and turns when the shaft turns.
On King Tut, it unlocks to allow the score motor to turn without resetting the relays. It probably only locks at the end of a ball and the end of a game when the relays need to be reset. On Beam can reset each half of the relay bank independently during a ball, and has a separate score motor and reset bank motor. They were mechanical madmen at Bally in those days.
My broken On Beam clutch was glued and taped, which made it impossible for the clutch to work. If you just do that, it may unwind the spring (see below where I talk about my seized clutch).
There's a steel 2-piece spring clutch inside the On Beam cam assembly, and the spring has to be perfect for the clutch to work. My spring-making project is on the back burner right now, but eventually I will figure out how to wind them. I bought a roll of .040" music wire, so I can wind hundreds of them once I figure out how.
Take some good pictures of your cams if you can. If you take them apart, I'd really like to see what the steel clutch looks like inside. If it's the same, we should get a few made by a machine shop.
If the parts are similar to On Beam, it might not be too hard to modify my CAD model if I could borrow a King Tut clutch assembly to look at it and measure. I do it old-school, no 3-D scanner, just measure with calipers and do a sketch on paper first, then make the CAD model.
I took the whole reset cam assembly apart and cleaned everything up - it needed it. Anyone with a working game that uses a motorized relay reset bank should inspect the clutches carefully to make sure they can turn freely and operate properly. If the steel clutch gets some corrosion in it and seizes up, you have big trouble! On Beam has a snap ring and 2 roll pins that had to be removed to disassemble the cam shaft. Both metal clutches were stuck to the shaft and hard to get off. After cleaning up with solvent and 0000 steel wool, everything slides on and turns freely.
Mine looks like the clutch seized, causing the spring to be overtorqued and "sprung". I have tried to rewind it, and got it really close, but it has to be perfect for the clutch engage/disengage action to work. That one spring is keeping my On Beam from working properly right now...
Spring clutches are pretty cool little devices, actually. I tried to find a commercial replacement, and there isn't anything the right size. Bally either had them custom-made or bought a clutch that was available at the time, and made the plastic pieces themselves. Someone with a lathe could whip those out easily, and probably do the springs, too. I don't have any machine shop buddies nearby these days...
We're very close to having this totally figured out. A solid replacement for these clutches will bring back a bunch of games from this important Bally era!

#30 1 year ago

Thanks for all of the work you are doing and documenting here!

I have been working on an On Beam that is having reset bank issues. Sometimes the motor pauses before a full rotation and sometimes the motor spins but the cams don’t move.

I am totally lost on how this device is put together and how it works. I would love to see a video of it being disassembled/reassembled and the inner workings explained.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Thanks for all of the work you are doing and documenting here!
I have been working on an On Beam that is having reset bank issues. Sometimes the motor pauses before a full rotation and sometimes the motor spins but the cams don’t move.
I am totally lost on how this device is put together and how it works. I would love to see a video of it being disassembled/reassembled and the inner workings explained.

Motor pausing before a full rotation could be one of the 3 switches that runs the reset motor (see schematic), Motor Trip Relay switch, #1 Reset Motor switch, and #2 Reset Motor switch. I think the last two are the ones that are activated by the 2 brown bakelite disks on the cam shaft.
If the motor spins and the cams don't move, the clutch is FUNCTIONING! There is a relay on each group of cams that locks and unlocks the clutch (I think the "Outhole Relay" and "Motor Trip Relay" are the clutch relays). If you fix the switches in your first question, the other part might be working. Take a video and show us.
It is hard to understand from the exploded diagrams. You pretty much have to take the whole cam shaft assembly apart and clean everything to make sure it's not sticking.
I will do a video before too long showing what I've found so far.

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#32 1 year ago
#33 1 year ago
Quoted from DCP:

.
If the parts are similar to On Beam, it might not be too hard to modify my CAD model if I could borrow a King Tut clutch assembly to look at it and measure. I do it old-school, no 3-D scanner, just measure with calipers and do a sketch on paper first, then make the CAD model.

The cabinet for my king tut is in the warehouse at work. I've got the head and playfield here at home for stripping down, but couldnt get the cab out easily so left it at work.

We're on lockdown at the minute, but when I can get to it I'll get the bottom board out of the cab and have a look at the motor / clutch.

Happy to help with measuring etc or I could probably ship over to you to help get all these King Tuts up and running again.

1 week later
#34 1 year ago

I have not taken the clutch assembly apart on King Tut, or gotten any real measurements, but took a few pictures the other day so figured would share. It now mostly works, but sometimes when just the score motor turns at the end of a ball the tab for the clutch will snap past the little stop resetting game progress. Only the very end of of the outer clutch tab made contact with the stop piece, with some adjustment it is doing better, but still not as reliable as I would like.

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1 month later
#35 1 year ago

I took apart the left side yesterday, I guess I need to take off the tiny retaining ring to get the spring and race off.The race spins freely counterclockwise and moves the bar clockwise

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#36 1 year ago

Svendtube Yes, you take off that clip and there is a spring and a steel collar that come off. Make sure everything is clean, and that the clutch only turns freely in one direction when it's assembled. When you turn it the other way, there should be no backlash before it starts turning the shaft. If there is, the problem is most likely the spring. I still haven't made springs yet...been a bit busy. I took the clutches off the shaft by punching out the roll pins, but you don't need to do that unless you want to steel-wool the whole shaft to get it super clean. It did make it easier to take all the parts including both clutches off of the shaft.
When the clutch is assembled, it should look just like the parts book picture - emspence 's King Tut clutch (second picture) does not look right. That one looks like the spring has come unwound partially. You can see the cams on the clutch are at a wider angle than the picture from the parts book. It's possible that King Tut's clutch sits at a different angle, but it's hard to say...looks "sprung" to me. It's 180 degrees off of the On Beam one...hmmm, maybe on purpose. What does the other one look like?
The plastic parts in both of your machines look fine, but PM me your address and I'll send you some free 3D printed nylon parts to try out if you want 'cuz that's how Pinside works . I put my effort into repro'ing the plastic parts because I had some broken ones, but it turns out the spring is the hardest thing to do! If we can ever wind springs, we can completely rebuild the On Beam and maybe some King Tut, Joust and other relay cams.
OnBeamClutchOrientationPartsBook (resized).pngSprungKingTutClutch (resized).png

#37 1 year ago

Mine is certainly not correct, not sure just how wrong...but it certainly isn't to be taken as an example of what things should look like. There is quite a bit of travel between when the clutch is engaged and when that portion of the shaft is stopped. I typically have to reach through the coin door to get things to reset properly. There are a couple notches that the end of the spring can sit in, neither one produces great results. Thanks for insight that spring is probable culprit.

5 months later
#38 8 months ago

DCP - well, finally dug took apart the clutch assembly today. Spring was indeed stretched out some, which gave a lot of play in the reset cams after the tab had been caught. I was able to bend it back into shape a bit, but ended up having to file a new little notch in the outer cam in order to make the assembly stop in the correct place. The machine has only one clutch. Outer cam is mostly ok, inner one has one of its little inside tabs broken off, or at least worn down from rubbing on the end of the spring being tucked into the same slot. I had somehow overlooked your offer to send replacements, I would be most grateful, will send you that message. I took some pictures of the spring, but missed the opportunity to get more of the internals on camera. The pieces offhand seem to match your renderings at least.

My cam system is now working well for the first time (for now!). Next I need to sort out where there is a short in the game. No matter if you tilt or game over, the game remains active...like you can flip the flippers, continue to score etc. I had to bend back a contact on tilt relay to keep the ball eject from machine gunning upon final ball drain. So, at least now a game can be played, but tilting turns on the light, but has no consequences.

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#39 8 months ago
Quoted from emspence:

dcp - well, finally dug took apart the clutch assembly today. Spring was indeed stretched out some, which gave a lot of play in the reset cams after the tab had been caught.

Great pics, emspence ! PM'd you about the cams I'm sending to you also.
This is the first time I have seen the clutch in another machine. It looks identical - now we need to find a Pinsider with a lathe who would like to turn some simple steel parts for us. I may put out a call on a new thread for that - I have drawings and a CAD model of the two steel clutch parts already. I've never been able to find a spring clutch that exact size in any mechanical parts catalogs. It may have been custom-made for Bally.
New steel clutch, new springs, and new cams would make a nice "rebuild kit" for a lot of these cam-reset Ballys. I'd better get on it!

#40 8 months ago

DCP I do have an old combination mill/lathe which has come in handy for a few parts, but my skillset and bit selection isn't to the level to fully re-create one of these...but I could give it a try and see if I can get anywhere close. Hopefully somebody with a CNC lathe or more practice is interested!

This is an old picture, before the area filled with clutter. Motor is sitting on the machine, but is now mounted to wall.

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#41 8 months ago
Quoted from DCP:

Great pics, emspence ! PM'd you about the cams I'm sending to you also.
This is the first time I have seen the clutch in another machine. It looks identical - now we need to find a Pinsider with a lathe who would like to turn some simple steel parts for us. I may put out a call on a new thread for that - I have drawings and a CAD model of the two steel clutch parts already. I've never been able to find a spring clutch that exact size in any mechanical parts catalogs. It may have been custom-made for Bally.
New steel clutch, new springs, and new cams would make a nice "rebuild kit" for a lot of these cam-reset Ballys. I'd better get on it!

I would be in for one!

2 months later
#42 6 months ago

Can someone explain the On Beam clutch to me?
On mine - go through "A" rollover, the A relay trips and the A pop bumper light relay trips.
Go over A rollover again and the entire cam rotates its full length but A pop bumper trip doesn't reset.
Go through B, C or D rollover, and their two corresponding relays trip, but the entire cam rotates and immediately rests them including A.
I've fixed a few Gottlieb EMs from the 60's but have never seen such an over-complicated relay system.

3 weeks later
#43 5 months ago

Just purchased an On Beam from a great fellow collector and he too stated the clutch sometimes fouls up(says its the spring) and even mentioned this thread in relation to the games issue. If you manufacture a replacement assembly Ill take one too!

2 months later
#44 3 months ago

I can, most likely, get access to either a manual lathe or a full CNC. If someone has CAD drawings, I may be able to reproduce.

I just acquired an On Beam and it worked about a week and started giving me problems, which is why I'm in this thread Looking forward to getting some advice on this machine.

1 month later
#45 55 days ago

Just an update to my last post. I have recently purchased a 3D printer. This should give me the ability to reproduce plastic parts in these machines. I'll need to get familiar with some CAD software or, if you need a part and can draw it up in CAD, I can print it. Should be able to make the cam lobes and many other parts I would think.

#46 55 days ago
Quoted from Wizbangdoodle:Should be able to make the cam lobes and many other parts I would think

I hope you try making the clutch spring! That's the one critical part I've been unable to make.

#47 54 days ago

what dimensions/specs did you come up with for the torsion spring?

the problem with the pacific pinball museum's on-beam is the A-3379-1 part, but the workaround was to extend the tab on the armature plate so it reliably grabs the worn down cam lobe.

#48 53 days ago
Quoted from baldtwit:

what dimensions/specs did you come up with for the torsion spring?

The critical dimension of the spring is the inside diameter 0.620". It is wound from .040" music wire, also known as 17.5 gauge wire. The spring would need to be wound onto a 0.495" diameter mandrel (bar) for it to spring back to 0.620.
I'll have to dig around to find the rest of the dimensions, or I'll just remeasure it.
We need to get those springs made!!! Those seem to be more of a problem than the plastic clutch parts themselves.

No3DClutchAssy (resized).png
#49 52 days ago
Quoted from DCP:

The critical dimension of the spring is the inside diameter 0.620". It is wound from .040" music wire, also known as 17.5 gauge wire. The spring would need to be wound onto a 0.495" diameter mandrel (bar) for it to spring back to 0.620.
I'll have to dig around to find the rest of the dimensions, or I'll just remeasure it.
We need to get those springs made!!! Those seem to be more of a problem than the plastic clutch parts themselves.
[quoted image]

Yes please!

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