(Topic ID: 271910)

Bally Playboy Some Sounds are Quick?

By Dandelock

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 21 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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20200707_125354.jpg
BallySound-18.jpg
Sound Board.jpg
U11 Pins 1 9 11 All.png
U11 Pins 1 9 11 Zoomed.png
U4 U5 All.png
U4 U5 Zoomed.png
U3 Outputs - Quench Post Green.png
U3 Inputs - Quench Post Pink.png
U2 Inputs - Quench Post Red.png
U2 Outputs - Quench Post Blue.png
Quench's Diagram.jpg
U11 Relevant Pins Zoomed.png
U11 Relevant Pins All.png
U3 Outputs - Quench Post Green.png
U3 Inputs - Quench Post Pink.png
#1 3 years ago

When I boot it up everything comes on find but many/all of the musical sounds are short and sound like digital chirps instead of the normal tune. However, many/most other game sounds are normal.

Places I see the sound issue:
- Power on tune
- Grotto tune
- End of ball bonus tune

Example good sounds from a random review video below.

Note the smooth tune and elongated tones:

Sounds I recorded below.

Note target and rollover sounds are fine but grotto and end of turn is weird:

Note the weird version of the startup tune after the target reset:

I've looked at Pinwiki and around here. I haven't seen anything specific but do see the default recommendation is to replace the caps which hasn't been done. Would bad/old caps cause this issue for some sounds and not others? Any suggestions on where to look? I see no obvious damage on the AS-2518-32 board.

#2 3 years ago

Try adjusting the sustain trimpot at sound board.

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

Try adjusting the sustain trimpot at sound board.

Thanks I headed to bed so will do that tomorrow. I had read to not mess with that so I will do some research and report back.

#4 3 years ago

Mark the original position or take a good picture of it so it will be easy to restore if adjusting does not help.

#5 3 years ago

The sweet spot is usually with the sustain trimmer pointing somewhere between 11 and 12 on the hour dial.

#6 3 years ago

Thanks for your help everyone. Sustain didn't help. It actually did make the sounds sound how they should for the most part except there is always a background sound as soon as I start it or constantly in sound test mode. I don't think it's the sustain since the knob hasn't been moved, at least on purpose.

I would think a component failure is more likely. I've tried the test points on the sound board and they all look good.

#7 3 years ago

I can't believe I somehow missed this delightful book:

Bally Electronic Pinball Games Repair Procedures
Module & Component Replacement
F.O. 560-1

Walking through the repair procedures I fail at:

Section II: Frequency Generation Associated Failures
Symptom II: No sound of incorrect tone sequence. (Frequency division failure)
Step B: U11 Defective

U11 pin 9 has +2 VDC, but pin 11 has 0 VDC where it should have +2 VDC.

I'm going to look into troubleshoot the chip itself more and probably order a replacement. Anyone familiar with this board have an opinion if this could explain my symptoms?

#8 3 years ago

Looks like there might be a problem in sound select signals. Check the connectors on sound board (J1) and solenoid driver (J4) for bad contacts or broken solder joints on pins.

#9 3 years ago

I replaced U11, all caps, and both pots with no resolution. I'll re-visit F.O. 560-1 and see if Step II.II.B passes.

Quoted from Tuukka:

Looks like there might be a problem in sound select signals. Check the connectors on sound board (J1) and solenoid driver (J4) for bad contacts or broken solder joints on pins.

Thanks! I had already ordered some parts before I saw your post. This will be my next step!

#10 3 years ago

Sorry if this is obvious but: If there's a constant sound in the background, you could have the sustain control turned up too high. If the last sound the board played was a tune (as opposed to a noise like the pop bumpers), and sustain is set too high, it will play that note continuously until the MPU makes it play the next sound.

When you hear the continuous sound, turn the sustain control counterclockwise and listen for it to stop.

#11 3 years ago

I think your problem is further upstream. U1 u2 u4 or U5

#12 3 years ago

The saga continues... As I said I replaced U11 with a brand new 74LS93 ( https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/SN74LS93N/296-3750-5-ND/377783 ) and it's still not working quite right. I busted out my 8-lead logic analyzer and checked as much as I could and I still think U11 is defective or something.

Per Tuukka I checked Sound Board J1, Solenoid J4, and even MPU J1 and everything pulses correctly and I don't see any bad solder joints. I did reflow Sound Board J1 just in case.

EDIT: When I went to remove the logic probe lead from the chip pin it came off very easily and turns out wasn't maintaining good contact. U11 Pin 11 is working properly. Leaving the below here for reference for anyone else looking to do this troubleshooting.

Quench 's awesome post in this thread ( https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-sound-board-as-2518-32-constant-tone#post-4363880 ) has served as a great troubleshooting step. Quench , I would love your input on below.

Quenchs DiagramQuenchs Diagram

As far as I can tell signals are all working into U2 (Red):

U2 Inputs - Quench Post RedU2 Inputs - Quench Post Red

And out of U2 into U1 (Blue):

U2 Outputs - Quench Post BlueU2 Outputs - Quench Post Blue

And out of U1 into U3 (Pink):

U3 Inputs - Quench Post PinkU3 Inputs - Quench Post Pink

And out of U3 (Green):

U3 Outputs - Quench Post GreenU3 Outputs - Quench Post Green

--- BELOW IS INCORRECT, WAS MISSING LOGIC PROBE LEAD ---

Which leads me back to U11... I never get an output on U11 Pin 11 in sound test mode, or even in gameplay mode with all kinds of pop bumpers, roll overs, slingshots going off. See below (zoomed way out, then way in):

U11 Relevant Pins AllU11 Relevant Pins All
U11 Relevant Pins ZoomedU11 Relevant Pins Zoomed

U11 is a brand new chip. I have a second one which I may swap again but I feel like something else is wrong here.

This lovely german page ( http://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/rep_soundold.html ) points to U11 again as well. 74LS93 is recommended as a replacement for the 86L93 which comes with the game, and all the pinouts appear to match so I don't think it's a chip compatibility issue. I'll probably pull the sound board out of the backbox and check all the pins again.

Anyone have any ideas what would explain this?

--- ABOVE IS INCORRECT, WAS MISSING LOGIC PROBE LEAD ---

I'll continue working through the troubleshooting guide...

#13 3 years ago

The saga continues... I busted out my 8-lead logic analyzer and checked as much as I could.

Per Tuukka I checked Sound Board J1, Solenoid J4, and even MPU J1 and everything pulses correctly and I don't see any bad solder joints. I did reflow Sound Board J1 just in case.

Quench 's awesome post in this thread ( https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-sound-board-as-2518-32-constant-tone#post-4363880 ) has served as a great troubleshooting step. Quench , I would love your input on below.

Quench's DiagramQuench's Diagram

As far as I can tell signals are all working into U2 (Diagram Red):

U2 Inputs - Quench Post RedU2 Inputs - Quench Post Red

And out of U2 into U1 (Diagram Blue):

U2 Outputs - Quench Post BlueU2 Outputs - Quench Post Blue

And out of U1 into U3 (Diagram Pink):

U3 Inputs - Quench Post PinkU3 Inputs - Quench Post Pink

And out of U3 (Diagram Green):

U3 Outputs - Quench Post GreenU3 Outputs - Quench Post Green

And U4 and U5...

U4 and U5 AllU4 and U5 AllU4 and U5 ZoomedU4 and U5 Zoomed

And U11...

U11 AllU11 AllU11 ZoomedU11 Zoomed

I lose the ability to use the Logic Analyzer when I get near R3/R4/R5 due to the voltage drop but a multimeter shows slight activity during sounds on all sides of the resistors.

From all the troubleshooting I'm reading as long as you're getting pulses through these pins you should be good. I'm not sure how to check if they're the correct pulses and I don't think that's even possible without a TON of effort.

Anyone have any suggestions on where to look next? Going to keep looking at various troubleshooting guides I've found...

#14 3 years ago

I think I may have found the culprit. It's 1am so I'll troubleshoot more tomorrow but at first glance I think CR1 may be bad. This thread ( https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-kiss-sound-board-problem#post-4920481 ) pointed me in the right direction.

CR-1 I'm getting 0.600 one direction and 1.578 the other direction.
CR-2 I'm getting 0.596 one direction and OL (0) the other direction.

#15 3 years ago

Do you mind posting a video showing the sound problem you're trying to fix?
The only issue I hear in your original videos is the lack of sustain on the single tone sounds. Tones frequencies are being properly generated meaning the issue is not logic chip related. But I'm unclear what the current issue is.

BTW, can you post a close up picture of the sound board?

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Do you mind posting a video showing the sound problem you're trying to fix?
The only issue I hear in your original videos is the lack of sustain on the single tone sounds. Tones frequencies are being properly generated meaning the issue is not logic chip related. But I'm unclear what the current issue is.
BTW, can you post a close up picture of the sound board?

The issue is the same, but maybe I can sum it up better. I can make the single tone sounds sound correct by turning up the sustain but then there is a constant tone in the background. At this point the choice is simply between:
- Short tone sounds (more like chirps) with no background noise
- Proper tone sounds with constant background tone

Here is a 2min video I just took illustrating the current issue and my understanding of how it SHOULD sound:

Here is a close up of the sound board:

1978 Bally Sound Board1978 Bally Sound Board

Edit: Here is a video I found on youtube which shows to how the sounds should sound (though in this video they sound a little "tinny" to me). Startup at 2:41 and sound test at 22:35.

#17 3 years ago

Hmm, this problem rings a bell but I can't quite remember.

It's not within the upper logic chip circuit, they control frequencies which are all correct.

It's within the sustain circuit which is circled below:

Your C6 capacitor looks original. That capacitor does go faulty. Can you swap it out? Even with something of similar value if you don't have the same. It forms part of the trigger decay for the sustain.

BTW, can you bend the trimmer pots flat to the board (that's how they should be) so you can see their dial positions.

BallySound-18.jpgBallySound-18.jpg

#18 3 years ago

I agree with replacing that c6 capacitor but also check the 75 ohm fire resistor on the bottom of the sound board. I had that go out of specs on my board and produced a similar problem.

#19 3 years ago

Yes, I missed C6 when ordering parts off Digikey last week. Looking at the schematic it could be culprit. I do have two extra new 1uf from that previous order (C8/C11). I think I'll add those two 1uf caps in parallel as a troubleshooting step. Sound like a good idea?

In the mean time I've just ordered some new C6 (2.2uf 50V), and because I'd like to order others incase I need them, I ordered some CR4 (Zener), CR1/CR2, and R36 (5W 75 Ohm).

#20 3 years ago

It works!!! I replaced C6 (stock 2uf 25V) with 2 extras (in parallel) from C8/C11 I had (1uf 50V) to make a single 2uf 50V capacitor. I discovered my Fluke 175 DMM had a capacitor test mode I never noticed and sure enough the original C6 showed OL both on and off the board.

I'm frustrated that I forgot one capacitor out of the 4 and it happened to be the one causing issues. I knew it was fixed immediately when I turned on the machine because I turned it off with sustain set to have no undertone, and when I switched the machine on I heard a faint tone. A quick sustain adjustment later and the tune is perfect!

So I guess all my toubleshooting and logic analyzer work was a waste and if I had just done the cap replacement properly this would have been solved a week ago.

Thanks again for everyone's expertise. I'll leave the logic screenshots and this thread around incase anyone else needs a reference when troubleshooting. Though I just placed an order at Digikey I'll replace my makeshift 2uf with a proper 2.2uf 50V when it arrives and at least now I have some replacement pieces.

I've learned an awful lot troubleshooting this board and if anyone needs help in the future add me to the thread or PM me and I'll try to contribute.

C6 Makeshift ReplacementC6 Makeshift Replacement

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from Dandelock:

So I guess all my toubleshooting and logic analyzer work was a waste

Put it down as part of the learning process

BTW, sustain in that last video you linked in post #18 sounds a bit short to me, I set the sustain a little longer than that.

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