(Topic ID: 203020)

Bally Paragon HELP!?!?

By HerNameWasLola

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

Paragon_MPUa.jpg
20171201_073127 (resized).jpg
#1 6 years ago

Hi All,
I am looking for some advice on a Bally Paragon machine that I bought.
I bought the machine knowing that is was not working and in a shabby state (was told that it did work, it was then moved left for a while then checked and didn't work!!), I'll fix it up I thought, will be a good project I thought, how hard could it be I thought..........
Turns out quite hard, I have absolutely no idea where to start!?!?! I'm an electrician by trade so first off I checked all the fuses that I could find, I only found one that had failed (this fuse was located under the playing board) I then removed the solenoid driver board as it looked like it had got hot around the centre of the board (around a resister) on inspection this appeared ok but I noticed that a circuit track had failed, so I jumped this with a piece of cable.
On turning the machine on, all the lights light up but that's about it. The score board numbers just have a small line of light at the bottom. nothing else really works, I've pressed a button (S33) on the MPU board and a button inside the coin door, it makes the machine make a random sound and sometimes makes the solenoids on the bumbers operate for about 10 seconds each in turn (but this has only happened once)
If I can just get the machine to operate, I'll be able to take it all apart to carry out the cabinet restoration knowing that it worked before I did hehehe
I'm very keen to learn about these machines, I'm hoping I've not taken on too much but hey! everybodys gotta start somewhere!!

#2 6 years ago

Start by reading the tech docs. You're an electrician so I assume you have access to a DMM/voltmeter. You'll have most of the tools as well, but you may need some specialized ones as well, also listed in the repair docs. The game is probably going to need repairs and mods to several boards and cinnector overhauls as well.

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm

#3 6 years ago

Thanks for the reply, yeah I have voltmeters and other test equipment, I appreciate your response and the like provided ! I'm away working next week so this will give me some time to read up on the link. I have also seen a previous link from 3 years ago with a similar fault that turned out to be a power supply cable open circuit so hopefully mines the same!
I have noticed that some of the cables have been soildered straight onto the pin connectors so there must have been issues there in the past!!

#4 6 years ago

First step will be to check the voltages at all the test points

#5 6 years ago

Repeating what Wayout440 said - you will need to replace the connectors - both sides (on the cable and on the circuit boards) to help the reliability. There are many places to get the connectors - search this website.

Also, if the battery is still on the MPU (white cylinder) get it off now. If there's corrosion, you will need to remove it. Again, search this website for how to's.

Since you have the glow on the displays, your high voltage section is likely good, but the capacitors should be replaced if they are original. If you have an ESR meter available, you can check the capacitor's capacitance and ESR.

Welcome to the addiction of pinball - you're going to love it!

Where are you located - roughly, what state/city/country?

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

Since you have the glow on the displays, your high voltage section is likely good

It could have failed and be putting too high of a voltage through too.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It could have failed and be putting too high of a voltage through too.

Yes, but that won't cause a lack of display characters, just prematurely burn out the display. A lot of these old Bally's are over voltage, and still run. When you get one, you should rebuild the HV and adjust it as far down as comfortably viewable to extend the lifespan of the gas displays.

#8 6 years ago

Thanks for the reply's there all so helpful !! I'm more looking forward to restoring the cabinet and making the stencils ! I'm located in the UK. So I'm thinking the parts may be more difficult to obtain. I'm going to read the how to's as suggested to get a bit more knowledge of the workings of the parts, I'm an indrustrial electrician specialising in power generation, however my apprenticeship was in motor winding so if any of the coils burn out I will hopefully be able to re-wind them! Yeah there is a battery and yes that does look like there is corrosion on the board, the battery is 3.6v, when I measured the voltage it was only 1v so I connected some more batteries to get it to about 3.5v ???? should I have done this??
I have also seen a website that sell the boards (Alltek systems) I don't know if it would be best just to buy a new board?? The paragon game is listed so hopefully it should work, but again I just don't know??
what does the battery do?? will it cause any issues if it is disconnected?? sorry for my ignorance and my lack of knowledge but I will try and read as mush information whilst i'm away working next week!
can't wait to get the machine working so we can have family tournaments !!
Thanks again guys!! I'll put up some pics when I return if anyone is interested !!

#9 6 years ago

Easy there! Start by SLOWING DOWN. I know you are excited, but you need to gain some education non how these pins work before you dive in. If you move too fast you will cost yourself more time, more troubles, and more expenses that are unnecessary.

Coils actually rarely go bad. A solid state pinball is more like a computer. Read those docs, start to learn the diagnostic menu (if it gets that far) and start learning how to use a meter to check.your basic electronics. The first thing will be testing, modifying and making certain the power supply is performing within specifications and stable, then you can address issues with the rest of the systems.

#10 6 years ago

You can leave the batteries disconnected. They're there for storing high scores and settings.

Besides from the voltages, there's an led on the mpu that should flash seven times. If the mpu has a problem the amount if flashes will help tell you what is wrong.

Alltek makes drop in replacements for all the bally games, so if once your voltages are all correct the machine still doesn't boot properly, they're a good alternative to trying to repair the board yourself. Depending on the amount of corrosion it may not be worth trying to fix it anyway

Quoted from wayout440:

Yes, but that won't cause a lack of display characters, just prematurely burn out the display

You said a glow implies the HV section is good, which is not the case. Since there is a glow, we know that the problem causing the displays not to show digits is with the MPU, not the high voltage, but it doesn't mean that the HV section is good.

#11 6 years ago

Thanks again, just been reading the repair guide ! I'm going to carry out the modifications outlined to see if this helps. the green LED on the MPU board does not flash when powered up, it slightly lights when the button s33 is pressed though (I think). think the first port of call will be the power supply unit. I will carry out the modifications and test procedures outlined. The biggest issue I can see so far is the burnt area around the left side of the capacitor! hopefully here in the UK I will be able to get most of the components I will need from RS components?! I will put some pictures on here of the corrosion around the battery area to see if you guys reckon its worth repairing or replacing !! Thanks all!!

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

You said a glow implies the HV section is good, which is not the case. Since there is a glow, we know that the problem causing the displays not to show digits is with the MPU, not the high voltage, but it doesn't mean that the HV section is good.

If you are going to quote someone, make sure you quote the right person. I said exactly what you are saying now in post #7. There is a minimum voltage required to make the glass glow, and rebuilding and adjusting the HV may still be necessary.

1 week later
#13 6 years ago

Hi All, I'm back from working away and have just tested all the boards:-
Power Board
TP1=5.53vDC TP2=228vDC TP3=11.87vDC TP4=6.23vAC TP5=41.34vDC Reference taken for these voltages was at the leg of resistor R1
All these voltages appear to be correct.
MPU (LED does not light at all)
TP1= 0v TP2=0.3v TP3=20.5v TP4=Ground (Voltage Reference) TP5=0v
There was a link wire that had been installed from TP3 of the power supply to TP5 on the solenoid driver board this was then connected to TP2 of the MPU board. This was probably done to 'give the boards' the required voltage. (when this is connected the speaker hisses but can be turned down!)
Solenoid driver
TP1=0v TP2=172.5vDC TP3=0v TP4=232vDC TP5=0v TP Ground= voltage reference
Lamp Driver
TP1=0v TP2= Ground voltage reference TP3=0v
Sound Board
TP1=0v TP2=Ground TP3= 12.2vDC TP4= 41.5vDC TP5=0v

It would appear that the boards are missing the +5 and +12 voltages however this is there at the power board at TP1 and TP3
There are connectors at the power board that have been removed and the leads soldered onto the board then inline connectors fitted, obviously this is not correct but will still work in my opinion??

Any ideas please ............

#14 6 years ago

From your post it sounds like your boards are hacked. I would go through each board performing the recommended repairs, modifications and overhaul systematically, board by board and repin all the connectors properly. Read all of the docs and check each board thouroghly

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm
http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/

#15 6 years ago

Right ok thanks, it does appear that this has been totally bodged !! uuhhhhh ! so would anyone have a wiring diagram that I could follow as now I don't know where the cables are ment to go?!?!? I've just traced cable from J3-8 from the power supply (orange) think this is ment to go to J3-12 of the solenoid driver board however it has been cut off and does not connect anywhere! also there is a link on that connector that looks suspect???

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from HerNameWasLola:

Right ok thanks, it does appear that this has been totally bodged !! uuhhhhh ! so would anyone have a wiring diagram that I could follow as now I don't know where the cables are ment to go?!?!? I've just traced cable from J3-8 from the power supply (orange) think this is ment to go to J3-12 of the solenoid driver board however it has been cut off and does not connect anywhere! also there is a link on that connector that looks suspect???

There's a manual and schematics on ipdb if you don't have a hard copy. One page of the schematics just lists all the connectors and where they should go, along with the wire colors

#17 6 years ago

Thanks for all the replys, I've downloaded all the drawings and followed them! I've now got all the correct voltages on all the cards apart from the sound card on TP5 but I think this is a ground????
Now when powering the machine the green LED lights (but dimly) and justs stays on!! From reading the guides this is a nightmare problem, the card has got some greying/corrosion! So my question is should I just bite the bullet and buy an Alltek MPU card??
Thanks for all your assistance and advice guys!

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from HerNameWasLola:

Thanks for all the replys, I've downloaded all the drawings and followed them! I've now got all the correct voltages on all the cards apart from the sound card on TP5 but I think this is a ground????
Now when powering the machine the green LED lights (but dimly) and justs stays on!! From reading the guides this is a nightmare problem, the card has got some greying/corrosion! So my question is should I just bite the bullet and buy an Alltek MPU card??
Thanks for all your assistance and advice guys!

Post a pic and we'll tell you what we think. The Alltek is a good option. For someone with experience, repairing a corroded board is labor intensive and about $20 in parts....but it's still somewhat a gamble. You could end up replacing more parts, or having more headaches. Replacing the board will help you get the game up and running quicker in most cases.

#19 6 years ago

Thanks for your input! Here is a pic of the mpu board! It has some corrosion from the battery! How bad do you guys think it is?? Worth getting a new board??? I have cleaned the board with some alcohol probably just a token gesture !! Thanks again!

20171201_073127 (resized).jpg20171201_073127 (resized).jpg

#20 6 years ago

Alkaline damage from thr battery.
Your in a spot of bother there.
That damage is still happening.
You need to neutralise that with with something like vinegar to stop it spreading.
Could be a can of worms.

#21 6 years ago

It could be reparable, I've seen worse. Did you read the tech docs I linked to in the first post? Damaged components need to be removed, acid neutralized, traces sanded clean and repaired where necessary, and then new components installed. You can get the parts from GPE or Big Daddy. It's a bit if work and involves replacing about 20-25 components. It's not a beginner task, for sure.

#22 6 years ago

Just buy the altech. It's way more reliable and will save you a lot of headaches.

#23 6 years ago

There is now another option for a replacement MPU from a Pinsider. http://nvram.weebly.com/new-pcbs.html

#24 6 years ago

Looks like this ground trace on the MPU board (circled in yellow) got ripped off when the battery was removed. Do you have zero ohms continuity between the top and bottom in the circled area?

Paragon_MPUa.jpgParagon_MPUa.jpg

#25 6 years ago

Hi, thanks for all your replies there are greatly appreciated. Its good knowing that there are folk out there on the ole interweb that will go out of their way to assist and give up their free time.
yeah the battery did rip of that track off and I repaired it with a piece of cable after the pic was taken, the LED is still dimly lit (like me hehehe) it did give one quick brightish flash but only once !!
stuff it im going to buy an alltek mpu board but over here in the uk there arnt that many places that sell it and they want £210 ($283 US) oh well its only money!!!! uuuhhhhh!!

#26 6 years ago

Depending on shipping one of these http://nvram.weebly.com/ might be worth it

#27 6 years ago

Hi all, just a quick update. I purchased an Alltek MPU, solenoid board and a power supply board (stuff the expense). I replaced any burnt connectors and the machine is working!! But not correctly !!! uuhhhhh
When the machine is first turned on the boards do all the self checks and I get all green LEDs. I can add credits by pushing the switch on the coin input. When I press the start button the game starts the ball pings from the centre to the play spring. Whilst playing the Q3 light on the solenoid board turns red, once the ball is lost down the centre the machine does not recognise that it is out of play and the flippers keep working and the score increases every time the flippers are pressed. If the machine is switched off and on again the process repeats itself !
Has anyone got any ideas what the issue is, I first thought that the solenoid that pushes the ball into the play spring may be knackered but as it works when first turned on it cant be that... I've checked the contact visually on the ball out of paly and it appears to be working ??? uuuhhhh
Thanks for any help.......

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from HerNameWasLola:

Whilst playing the Q3 light on the solenoid board turns red

Just at random? As soon as you hit something specific?

#29 6 years ago

It seams to be random, but if the ball just goes straight out of play and the Q3 LED is not lit, the machine still does not recognise that the ball is out of play???? thanks for your assistance.........Im deffo struggling now!!! ggrrrrrr

#30 6 years ago

Does the outhole switch register in switch test? It may just kick the ball out whether or not it knows it's in there when you first start a game

#31 6 years ago

Yeah that's what I was thinking, how do I do a switch test?? sorry if that's a silly question!?!

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from HerNameWasLola:

Yeah that's what I was thinking, how do I do a switch test?? sorry if that's a silly question!?!

There's a description of each of the tests in the manual. Tests are accessed via the red button inside the coin door. Switch test is, if I remember correctly, the fourth test. It'll show the switch number of the lowest number switch that is closed. There should be a diagram of switches with their numbers and locations in there as well

#33 6 years ago

Ok thanks, switch test is 5 presses but it does not display anything?!?!? also when I press it 3 times for the solenoid test I get Q3 flashing red again!! I though that Alltek MPU card and solenoid card would solve all my problems!! heheh wrong again!!

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from HerNameWasLola:

Ok thanks, switch test is 5 presses but it does not display anything?!?!? also when I press it 3 times for the solenoid test I get Q3 flashing red again!! I though that Alltek MPU card and solenoid card would solve all my problems!! heheh wrong again!!

Switch test should at least display 0 in the ball in play counter if no switches are closed. If it's not then there's a problem. The previous tests all seem to operate fine?

Q3 flashing red means that the driver board thinks one of the coils is bad, in this case the knocker judging by the schematics. Take a look at it, make sure it measures at least a few ohms across the coil with the resistance test on your multimeter. If it's bad just clip the single wire going to one side to disable it.

#35 6 years ago

OK I've found the issue with the Q3 light flashing red on the solenoid board. There was a solenoid screwed to the base of the machine (next to the speaker) that appeared to do nothing but this coil was bad, so I disconnected it now I have no Red flashing LEDs. So the only issue is that the machine does not recognise when the ball is lost down the centre!! I've checked the switch with my DMM and have 0 Ohms when operated, I also checked the small diode that is across the switch using the DMM and that tests correct also. I will continue checking things but does anyone have any ideas????? Thanks

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from HerNameWasLola:

OK I've found the issue with the Q3 light flashing red on the solenoid board. There was a solenoid screwed to the base of the machine (next to the speaker) that appeared to do nothing but this coil was bad, so I disconnected it now I have no Red flashing LEDs. So the only issue is that the machine does not recognise when the ball is lost down the centre!! I've checked the switch with my DMM and have 0 Ohms when operated, I also checked the small diode that is across the switch using the DMM and that tests correct also. I will continue checking things but does anyone have any ideas????? Thanks

Check if any other switches in the same row or column also don't work.

#37 6 years ago

Switches are daisy chained, and it is very common to have a broken wire on a row or column switch that is upstream from the malfunctioning switch. The upstream switch will still work. You'll have to visually follow the wires from the malfunctioning switch to the others in the same row/column.

#38 6 years ago

Right I've traced the cable from the switch and up to the mpu board I checked for continuity from the out of play switch and it was all correct ! I did notice that the pin didn't look right so I removed the pin and found it broken!! I've replaced the pin and it's now Aaaallivvvveeeee!! Its now operating correctly (i think) just some light not working !! Thanks for all your help guys !! Pinball tournaments over Christmas!!

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 10.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
4,200 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Springfield, MO
$ 149.95
Boards
Allteksystems
 
$ 35.00
Playfield - Plastics
UpKick Pinball
 
Trade
Machine - For Trade
Munster, IN
3,600 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Mountainside, NJ
From: $ 1.25
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
 
$ 8.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
 
From: $ 5.00
Cabinet - Other
UpKick Pinball
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
From: £ 110.00
$ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
UpKick Pinball
 
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
$ 179.00
Cabinet - Other
Pinball Pimp
 
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-paragon-help and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.