(Topic ID: 199697)

Bally Paragon generating incorrect tone sequences (RESOLVED)

By srcdube

6 years ago


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#1 6 years ago

Hi.

Newbie to pinside!

I recently purchased a very nice Paragon but the sound is a bit off. It generates the music but seems to add extra sequences of notes.

All the boards seem correct. The soundboard prom has no code or sticker on it, but it sounds good... just some wrong notes. Sustain doesn't affect it.

I've searched various forums and can't seem to find any postings with something similar for Paragon, (or Harlem Globe-trotters or Dolly Parton). I've ordered a new prom for the sound board but think it likely may not fix it from stuff I've read so far.

From what I've read it doesn't sound like the prom holds the tunes...simple notes or short tunes sound ok. Longer ones seem to have extra notes. Startup and end of game has extra stuff. The score drain sequence doesn't have the increasing pitch that's typical... jumps to lots of different notes.

If I'm getting more notes than I should I think that's pointing to other stuff... thinking:

Stuck or shorted address bits?
Clocking through too many, or wrong locations in memory?

Anyone seen (or rather heard) that before?

Thanks!

Stephen

#2 6 years ago

I've recently repaired three of these board.
All were "off-key" and didn't sound right.
I tunned out to be U2 the CD4042, which is the data interperter for this board.
All three boards had the same problem.
This is what happens if you get wroung voltage over your data signal.

Peter
www.inkochnito.nl

#3 6 years ago

Thanks Peter,

Do you know if those chips (quad latches) are locking in a single byte from the mpu and U3 has stored what that tune is and spits out the series of notes... or the mpu sends each of the notes one at a time and U2 latches each one in.

If it's just one byte I can probably check signals without a scope to see what gets latched in. If it's a whole series of notes that come through it'll be harder to check. I want to avoid soldering until I'm sure which chip is bad...might not have the luxury though.

Thanks for your input, it seems like that would fit the symptoms.

Stephen

#4 6 years ago

U1 top left of the schematic is a frequency generator (around 350kHz). The PROM at U3 contains data that's used to divide the output of the frequency generator down to produce different audible tones.
U2 is used to latch the MPU signals to select different divisors from the PROM so different preset tones are played. If any of the outputs of U2 are stuck high or low, then wrong tones will be generated. Since you have a scope, it should be simple to check the U2 outputs when playing sounds to see if any of its outputs are stuck.

Is there no marking on your PROM at all? Maybe someones installed a PROM from an earlier -32 board which has different divisor data.

#5 6 years ago

I don't have a scope... just multimeter. Miniscope now on my Christmas list!

No nothing on the chip... assume it was originally a sticker that dried up and fell off, or as suggested someone changed it in the past with the wrong chip.

Expecting the correct prom in the mail next week. Hoping that's it. If not I'll start checking address lines etc... there's a nice table in the Bally repair guide that has the expected u3 outputs for each set of inputs.

Will also do a visual check on the paths to see if any traces or soldering looks broken or shorted.

Thanks for the additional information... more facts lead to solutions!

Stephen

#6 6 years ago

I just checked the Bally Repair Guide, the U3 output table is for the earlier PROM. If your data matches then you know the wrong PROM has been installed. If you're handy with a HEX editor you can see the difference in the output data between the earlier and later PROM. Eg, SuperSonic has the early PROM, Paragon has the later PROM.

If you have a logic probe, it will help you determine if U20 is faulty.
It sounds like you know what you're doing so you should be able to sort it out.

#7 6 years ago

If there a table "out there" that has the correct U3 outputs for the Paragon, globe-trotters, Dolly Parton prom?

Stephen

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

If there a table "out there" that has the correct U3 outputs for the Paragon, globe-trotters, Dolly Parton prom?

There is now

AS-2888-4___U3-729-51.jpgAS-2888-4___U3-729-51.jpg

#9 6 years ago

very nice work! saved that image.

#10 6 years ago

PFFFFieeeeeew, there it went straight over my head!.......

#11 6 years ago

^^^ ya holy cow I've never seen the info laid out like that before. Looks as hard as learning a switch matrix. Interesting stuff.
-Mike

#12 6 years ago

To be honest verifying the PROM in an EPROM programmer will take a fraction of the time compared to manually setting all the input states and checking the outputs. Having said that, checking the first line in the table will be enough to tell you which PROM is installed since the output data at address 0 for each PROM is different.

As Inkochnito mentioned start by checking U2 first. You're simply looking for all outputs on U2 to pulse (and not be permanently stuck) when the game plays various sounds.

Also, verify that you have good connections of the signals from the MPU board to the sound board.

#13 6 years ago

things to consider... The C/D jumper and if the extra resistor/cap is in or out.

Paragon needs the as-2518-50 sound board with...

729-51 PROM
A = OUT
B = IN
C = IN
D = OUT
C22 (0.047uF) = OUT
R28 (15K) = OUT

1 week later
#14 6 years ago

Ok... new u3 prom received and tried out... no change. Bummer.

Used a logic probe to trace some signals. Found that u1 pin 15 (inverter output into u3) seems to be stuck low, not toggling... but not shorted to ground either.

Cut the leads to u1 14 and 15 and ran the signal through one of the spare inverters on u8 instead... same chip type but not all the inverters are used. Cheap fix without removing u1.

But u8 inverter output also doesn't toggle.

The node isn't shorted to ground.

I pulled U3 and the node still doesn't toggle... but does the same thing with two different proms anyway so not likely a u3 input.

Thoughts:
That one signal just happens to go through jumper B stuff with Jumper A potentially shorting it to ground... but everything looks connected ok. Coincidence?

The node may be stuck with another bit or signal? But others are toggling... not stuck.

U3 socket is shorting it? Or not connecting it? Will a node not be driven if it is floating... or has no input to another device?

The node has too much capacitance and can't be driven?

U2 output appears to be toggling with logic probe but signal is actually too low to trigger the inverter?

Any other ideas?

I hate doing it but I may bend the u3 pin out of the socket and try driving it directly instead of through pcb path and socket.

Open to suggestions.

Stephen

#15 6 years ago

sidebar question... these circuit boards are old enough that they are only dual layer correct? There are no inter-layer ground planes that would make it possible for a via to potentially short to a ground plane? Just asking to get that off the table. Thx.

#16 6 years ago

first off confirm that all connected SOL-A, etc pulse during sound test. IE... all four or five inputs with wires to header pin pulse.

If all inputs work i imagine that U2's /Q3 output is dead. Replace the 4042 chip.

the board is only double sided, no internal layers. if you need a good schematic drawing. Dolly Parton manual on IPDB is pretty clear.

***EDIT***
the other 4049 chip is used in an odd way. you cannot use those extra gates.

#17 6 years ago

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#18 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

first off confirm that all connected SOL-A, etc pulse during sound test. IE... all four or five inputs with wires to header pin pulse.
If all inputs work i imagine that U2's /Q3 output is dead. Replace the 4042 chip.
the board is only double sided, no internal layers. if you need a good schematic drawing. Dolly Parton manual on IPDB is pretty clear.
***EDIT***
the other 4049 chip is used in an odd way. you cannot use those extra gates.

yup... already confirm most of those with logic probe (good investment!):
1) all header pins toggle
2) all inputs to U2's toggle
3) all outputs from U2 / inputs to U1's toggle
4) Outputs from U1 all toggle, except for pin 15

(What I cannot tell for 1-4 above with just a logic probe is if there is any cross talk between signals, or they're stuck together. The "ditty" that the logic probe chimes does sound a bit different for each signal so I'm assuming they are not at this point.. would need a real scope to see that level of detail).

Thinking that inverter (U2/Q3) was toasted, and not having another 4042, I ran it through an unused inverter on the U8 chip (same 4042) ... but again it's output doesn't toggle either.

I'm good for the schematic drawings. I'll check the Dolly Parton manual to see if it's any better than what I have. I have what you copy/pasted in your subsequent post.

Thanks!

#19 6 years ago

How is U8 being used differently that I cannot use the Inverter's not already in use? It doesn't look like the unused inverters are tied off anywhere... You referred to them as 4042 and 4049... on my board they are exactly the same chip (I'll need to check at home what the specific number is... both motorola, same chip number and suffix). None of this stuff are tri-state devices are they?

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

How is U8 being used differently that I cannot use the Inverter's not already in use? It doesn't look like the unused inverters are tied off anywhere... You referred to them as 4042 and 4049... on my board they are exactly the same chip (I'll need to check at home what the specific number is... both motorola, same chip number and suffix). None of this stuff are tri-state devices are they?

U2= 4042
U1= 4049
U8 =4049 (not on the 5v supply!)

U2 takes the inputs from the CPU. the CLK pin of u2 is the solenoid bank select or sound bank select (sound board shares inputs with solenoid board decoder). U2's Q3 would be the non inverted output (not used/connected but you can probe it). /Q3 would be the inverted output then it inverts again through the 4049. If /Q3 of the 4042 does not pulse but D3 of the 4042 does. Replace the 4042.

Untitled (resized).pngUntitled (resized).png

Note #6 and the C/D jumpers are important to. Im not sure I ever read that you confirmed those.

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

How is U8 being used differently that I cannot use the Inverter's not already in use? It doesn't look like the unused inverters are tied off anywhere... You referred to them as 4042 and 4049... on my board they are exactly the same chip (I'll need to check at home what the specific number is... both motorola, same chip number and suffix). None of this stuff are tri-state devices are they?

never mind.... found it (Note 3). No power or ground.

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#22 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

U2= 4042
U1= 4049
U8 =4049 (not on the 5v supply!)
U2 takes the inputs from the CPU. the CLK pin of u2 is the solenoid bank select or sound bank select (sound board shares inputs with solenoid board decoder). U2's Q3 would be the non inverted output (not used/connected). /Q3 would be the inverted output then it inverts again through the 4049. If /Q3 of the 4042 does not pulse but D3 of the 4042 does. Replace the 4042.

... you beat me by a minute . Looks like the smoking gun. Also the fact that in running it through U8 I get what appears to be the same behaviour as through U1, sort of implies that Q3 on U1 ain't got no power. Off to Radio Shack! Hopefully someone in Ottawa (only two real electronics shops) has that chip so I don't gotta get it online.

Thanks!

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

U2= 4042
U1= 4049
U8 =4049 (not on the 5v supply!)
U2 takes the inputs from the CPU. the CLK pin of u2 is the solenoid bank select or sound bank select (sound board shares inputs with solenoid board decoder). U2's Q3 would be the non inverted output (not used/connected). /Q3 would be the inverted output then it inverts again through the 4049. If /Q3 of the 4042 does not pulse but D3 of the 4042 does. Replace the 4042.

....afterthought.. If U2 pin 1 is the non-inverted output, can I connect it directly to U3 to see if it works, or as a permanent solution?... does the extra inverter just give more power to the signal? Would it be worth testing, instead of a permanent solution, or is U2 just not strong enough to drive U3 without the inverter?

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

....afterthought.. If U2 pin 1 is the non-inverted output, can I connect it directly to U3 to see if it works, or as a permanent solution?... does the extra inverter just give more power to the signal? Would it be worth testing, instead of a permanent solution, or is U2 just not strong enough to drive U3 without the inverter?

the 4049 can sink/source more current. you can try it tho. worst case is you damage the unused gate or the entire chip(which you where going to replace anyways). I imagine would work as a test, long term, maybe not since one gate seems to have failed just going to the 4049 buffer.

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

the 4049 can sink/source more current. you can try it tho. worst case is you damage the unused gate or the entire chip(which you where going to replace anyways). I imagine would work as a test, long term, maybe not since one gate seems to have failed just going to the 4049 buffer.

U2 is OK... it's the inverter/buffer that's toasted (U1 pin 15). I'll use a test clip to U2 pin one, and connect it to the input to U3 pin 13... see if that fixes my sound.... if it does, then it confirms my only problem is U1. (I don't like reworking chips until it's my very last choice... soldering skills ain't like they used to be).

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

U2 is OK... it's the inverter/buffer that's toasted (U1 pin 15). I'll use a test clip to U2 pin one, and connect it to the input to U3 pin 13... see if that fixes my sound.... if it does, then it confirms my only problem is U1. (I don't like reworking chips until it's my very last choice... soldering skills ain't like they used to be).

depending on your tools to desolder you may find it easier to snip out bad IC first. Then you can heat and remove each leg one at a time. If you have a nice vac desoldering gun like a hakko fr300 you can easily desolder the chip out with out cutting it out.

Luckily this board is pretty sturdy compared to others. The traces and pads seem to stick well and nothing is too fine pitch.

#27 6 years ago

I tried taking the U2 non-inverted signal and applying it directly to the U3 input, but that didn't work. Assuming it's not strong enough to drive it. With no connection the u3 input floats... chime is mostly high pitched tones. With the non-inverted signal applied it sounds the same as I had it before... it adds some low pitched frequency to the tone but is still incorrect... essentially it acts the same as a stuck low input so I'm assuming the non-inverted signal is not strong enough to drive high (which is why the U1 buffers are there in the first place).

With signals cut now I can tie the u3 input to 5v... mostly high pitched tones, or tied it to ground... adds some low pitched tones.

Essentially from your table I'm really only getting half of the tones available to use since I can only have one of the input bits (pin 13 or "D") either high or low all the time. So the card will play a tune for an event (like drain sequence) with only 16 of the 32 possible notes... it sounds sort of correct because it's still using Paragon notes... but mixing up or playing the wrong notes for a specific event because it doesn't have all of the 32 notes to work with. Sounds ok to everyone else because they don't know what it's supposed to sound like... but I remember!!!

Contacting a local pinball fixit guy to see if he has the chip... he had components for me before to fix a display transistor.

Hoping I'm near the end of this cause I just want to hear the correct paragon ditties!

#28 6 years ago

If you have decent soldering skills/equipment have you thought about simply swapping U1 and U8 around?

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you have decent soldering skills/equipment have you thought about simply swapping U1 and U8 around?

good point. looks like pin 14/p15 is NC at u8. Might just work.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you have decent soldering skills/equipment have you thought about simply swapping U1 and U8 around?

Getting old... thinking of ways to test what's bad, and do workarounds, and put barnacles for quick fixes... but never thought to just swap the two chips.

Soldering skills and tools ain't great... working with squishy bulb solder sucker and solder wicking mesh. If my local guy has the chip I'll get it from him. If not, and local electronics shops don't have an equivalent, I may give it a try.

Thanks for the idea!

1 week later
#31 6 years ago

U1 4049 replaced (now socketed) but still the same. Argh! Did a bit more forensics including directly connecting u1pin15 to u3 with flying leads outside the sockets in case there was anything with the tracks... no go. So running out of options ... if U1 is good even though the output doesn't toggle then it goes back to U2 4042... which was toggling... or so I thought.

Logic probed it again, but noticed this time that although the hi indicator was flashing, making me think it was toggling, the lo indicator wasn't actually flashing when the hi was off. Checked other signals and the hi/lo indicators always complement each other... as they should. Debugging skills and observation getting old, and I haven't worked with logic probes before anyway. A single flashing hi does NOT mean the signal is toggling.

So u2 pin 15 can drive hi but not lo, and then u1 inverter just stays low all the time. Waiting for some 4042's now. Maybe fixed next weekend!

Moral of the story... measure twice and cut once. Know your logic probe... I should have noticed the difference between how the signals were "toggling" differently last week.

Btw... soldering skills not too bad... desoldering skills suck... gave up and cut off the ic and worked out the legs one at a time. No way I could have swapped U1 with U8 without wrecking them both... and it would have been for nothing anyway. Learning the hard way

#32 6 years ago

OK...getting the end of my patience (and options). 4042 parts received. Replaced and socketted U2. It's working great... all signals toggling. But dang it... the sound is still wonky. Most of the playfield sounds seem correct from what I remember... Paragon Saucer, Waterfall, Valley of Demons dropdowns... but what I distinctly remember about Paragon was the increasing pitch of the drain cycle when you had a high score.... with a really high score, you'd think the pin was going to blow through the roof... am I remembering incorrectly, or is that the way it's supposed to sound? So far I've replaced U3, U2, and U1, reflowed the header pins... I've just gone through checking all of the signals to and from the downcounters (U4,U5), and everything seems to be connected correctly, no shorts between lines, no stuck bits... everything toggles. Gah!

I've uploaded a video of the drain sequence for a high score on my machine.

Anyone got any more ideas based on the drain sequence?
- harness rewired in the past, and data bits from MPU swapped? (checked that and seems correct)
- crosstalk between data bits in harness? (not sure how I'd test that)
- signals stuck together somewhere on the circuit board? (really sure I checked all those)
- U4/U5 downcounters not working correctly?
- something in the analog path... but that doesn't seem to address the symptoms... really just seems to be playing the wrong notes.
- MPU proms wonky?
- please don't tell me the two sound control bits affect this ?

In the end, it still sounds pretty good, and no one really knows the difference except me... am I being too picky?

Thanks everyone!

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

OK...getting the end of my patience (and options). 4042 parts received. Replaced and socketted U2. It's working great... all signals toggling. But dang it... the sound is still wonky. Most of the playfield sounds seem correct from what I remember... Paragon Saucer, Waterfall, Valley of Demons dropdowns... but what I distinctly remember about Paragon was the increasing pitch of the drain cycle when you had a high score.... with a really high score, you'd think the pin was going to blow through the roof... am I remembering incorrectly, or is that the way it's supposed to sound? So far I've replaced U3, U2, and U1, reflowed the header pins... I've just gone through checking all of the signals to and from the downcounters (U4,U5), and everything seems to be connected correctly, no shorts between lines, no stuck bits... everything toggles. Gah!
I've uploaded a video of the drain sequence for a high score on my machine.
» YouTube video
Anyone got any more ideas based on the drain sequence?
- harness rewired in the past, and data bits from MPU swapped? (checked that and seems correct)
- crosstalk between data bits in harness? (not sure how I'd test that)
- signals stuck together somewhere on the circuit board? (really sure I checked all those)
- U4/U5 downcounters not working correctly?
- something in the analog path... but that doesn't seem to address the symptoms... really just seems to be playing the wrong notes.
- MPU proms wonky?
- please don't tell me the two sound control bits affect this ?
In the end, it still sounds pretty good, and no one really knows the difference except me... am I being too picky?
Thanks everyone!

Watch some other people's youtube video for comparisons. Don't expect too much from these first generation electronic sound boards.

Are you sure have all the sound inputs? There is four at mpu j4 and then the one at mpu j1 (p7 i think) that is often overlooked. Missing the MPU j1 bit makes the sound lose a frequency layer that gives the sound a bit more richness.

Its not going to be the MPU proms but these games have MPU dip switch settings for basic / advanced sound. Make sure you are using the more advanced effects and that the dip switch bank works.

#34 6 years ago

That bonus countdown is definitely wrong. When correct you have eight ascending tones, then eight more at slightly higher frequency, then repeat all the way up to the highest frequency at 49K bonus...not the seemingly random sequence you have there.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from RoyGBev:

That bonus countdown is definitely wrong. When correct you have eight ascending tones, then eight more at slightly higher frequency, then repeat all the way up to the highest frequency at 49K bonus...not the seemingly random sequence you have there.

'Zactly! Now what? I'm assuming the tones played are incorrect ... like possibly the data bits are mixed up or cross talk.

#36 6 years ago

If it makes a difference, the machine was retrofit with a Twobits Dash35 MPU... are there any known issues with bus bits being swapped or needing to be configured? I haven't really looked at the mpu.

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Are you sure have all the sound inputs? There is four at mpu j4 and then the one at mpu j1 (p7 i think) that is often overlooked. Missing the MPU j1 bit makes the sound lose a frequency layer that gives the sound a bit more richness.

Checked the fifth data bit... good all the way through to u3. Rats.

Any recommendations on how to check the down counters? U4 and u5? I don't want to just replace ic's just to see if it helps.

#38 6 years ago

With your logic probe, are you seeing pulsing on all the U3 PROM inputs and outputs during the bonus countdown?
Also check the U4 and U5 counter outputs for pulsing which is pins 12, and 1, 7, 9 and 15.
Finally output pins 9 and 11 of U11 (86L93) - these two square wave outputs are mixed together downstream to create slightly more complex analog sounds as shown on the schematic.

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

With your logic probe, are you seeing pulsing on all the U3 PROM inputs and outputs during the bonus countdown?
Also check the U4 and U5 counter outputs for pulsing which is pins 12, and 1, 7, 9 and 15.
Finally output pins 9 and 11 of U11 (86L93) - these two square wave outputs are mixed together downstream to create slightly more complex analog sounds as shown on the schematic.

I usually put it in sound test mode...haven't tried it with the actual draining, but I can. I checked toggling on u4 and u5, and but not u11 yet. Will check them all again including the dc levels shown on the diagram. Not really expecting any surprises though... assuming they're all toggling since it's making sounds... just not the correct ones. U4 or u5 may not be downcounting correctly and still be toggling on a logic probe... I can check intermediate bits too that have n/c to see if any of them appear funny.

After reviewing diagrams again I was thinking now that I have u1 u2 and u3 socketed I can probably pull any one out and rig some wires up to drive data bits as I want and see how they flow... eg pull u3 out and put what I want as data to the down counters to get a single tone. Anyone test like that before? Not sure what keeps the tone going though. I'm assuming that in sound test mode that a4j4_10 is providing a signal to the analog circuit that will keep repeating whatever tone i select. My diagram isn't clear but it looks like there is a B jumper that brings that signal to c14 to generate a pulse into the analog stuff? or do I need to ping another signal to execute each time... I have the Bally testing manual so I'll review how they say to walk through but by bit testing.

1 month later
#40 6 years ago

Still struggling with the soundcard... I'll post a larger update with some questions later.

Thought I'd post this jpg though, of some calculations I did... wanted to figure out what frequencies were being generated for each of the 31 input data combinations. For each data input, U3 generates a number that U4 and U5 count down, and they put out a clock signal to U11 each time they count that many cycles. U11 then multiplies that "clock" by 2 and 8 (lowers the frequency). The two digital frequencies are modulated together through Resistor/Capacitor pairs to give an analog signal that goes to the analog circuit to pump the speaker (per the diagrams on the schematics). The MPU sends "notes" to the soundcard to play one at a time... each of the 31 data input combos is one note.

Based on the U1 clock signal feeding U4p6 being about 2 microseconds, I came up with the two frequencies that are modulated together for each input data. Frequencies generated range from 300hz to 5Khz... which is a nice range of stuff we can hear (and makes me think the math is correct). The "null" value (15) calculates to a frequency of 76Khz which we can't hear (or more likely since it's only counting "1" each time, the input to U11 may not actually be toggling... whatever). I think the math is correct... please let me know if you think something's incorrect or I'm totally out to lunch.

All good... except my Paragon is still playing the wrong notes . More later. Happy Friday.

soundcard (resized).JPGsoundcard (resized).JPG

#41 6 years ago

Great picture! You're getting a deep understanding of how the tones are generated by the board
Sorry, I somehow missed your post a month ago
The U1 multi-vibrator clock runs around 350kHz last time I measured it.
And from memory, the NULL value does produce a very high inaudible frequency when no sounds are to be heard (the sustain/release circuit also clamps it out).

Stupid question, are you sure the sound select signals are 100% wired properly? i.e. could someone have accidentally crossed over two sound select signals at the connector?

Pity I don't have more time at the moment because I can simulate what you did in emulation to validate the output frequencies.

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Great picture! You're getting a deep understanding of how the tones are generated by the board
Sorry, I somehow missed your post a month ago
The U1 multi-vibrator clock runs around 350kHz last time I measured it.
And from memory, the NULL value does produce a very high inaudible frequency when no sounds are to be heard (the sustain/release circuit also clamps it out).
Stupid question, are you sure the sound select signals are 100% wired properly? i.e. could someone have accidentally crossed over two sound select signals at the connector?
Pity I don't have more time at the moment because I can simulate what you did in emulation to validate the output frequencies.

350khz maps to 2.85microsecond timing... so looks good (schematic says 1.1microsec to 3.1microsec)... I generated my numbers based on 1.1 and 3.1 and then averaged to come up with my table.

What are you calling the "sound select signals"... the data input signals? J1,2,3,4,12... or the clock signal that latches them in? or something else? I've buzzed out the data signals and they look correct. Wondering if there's cross talk in the wiring harness though where insulation may have been rubbed away (some other wires have been taped up to insulate again). I think they're good though and don't seem to be stuck together (checked with multimeter).

I'll send more of an update later with some of my other findings, but I'm wondering if I'm getting sounds from the MPU talking to the Solenoid board over the same buss, and the soundcard is picking them up when it's not supposed to be.

#43 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

350khz maps to 2.85microsecond timing... so looks good (schematic says 1.1microsec to 3.1microsec)... I generated my numbers based on 1.1 and 3.1 and then averaged to come up with my table.
What are you calling the "sound select signals"... the data input signals? J1,2,3,4,12... or the clock signal that latches them in? or something else? I've buzzed out the data signals and they look correct. Wondering if there's cross talk in the wiring harness though where insulation may have been rubbed away (some other wires have been taped up to insulate again). I think they're good though and don't seem to be stuck together (checked with multimeter).
I'll send more of an update later with some of my other findings, but I'm wondering if I'm getting sounds from the MPU talking to the Solenoid board over the same buss, and the soundcard is picking them up when it's not supposed to be.

SOL-A, SOL-B, etc is the sound select signals. SOL/SND bank select is what toggles them to be read between sound/sol driver.

MPU J4 to sound J4 to driver J4 is wired right is what I think quench is getting at. Use the Bally wiring diagram page. Solenoids firing out of order would be a clue too.

The only time I have had cross talk is when the +12v/+5v supply is really dirty playing around with switch mode regulators (check for AC ripple on your lineear regulator circuit, across the filter cap) or the 74154 decoder enable pin is shorted (high i think it would be for solenoid data to play at the SB).

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

What are you calling the "sound select signals"... the data input signals? J1,2,3,4,12

Yep, the signals entering the sound board J1 connector on pins 1, 2, 3, 4 and 12.

So clarifying, the sound select signal (SOL-A,B,C,D,E) wires you have at J1 on the sound board are:
J1-1 Blue-Yellow wire
J1-2 Blue-Red wire
J1-3 Orange-Black wire
J1-4 Red-White wire
J1-12 Brown-Blue wire

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Yep, the signals entering the sound board J1 connector on pins 1, 2, 3, 4 and 12.
So clarifying, the sound select signal (SOL-A,B,C,D,E) wires you have at J1 on the sound board are:
J1-1 Blue-Yellow wire
J1-2 Blue-Red wire
J1-3 Orange-Black wire
J1-4 Red-White wire
J1-12 Brown-Blue wire

yes... and on the MPU card the signals are in the opposite order on the connector J4: A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1 (and E is on J1_7)

Solenoids firing out of order would be a clue too.

Solenoids seem to fire OK while playing... only one is goofy (I'll put in a separate post later). When ball goes into Golden Cliffs the CoinLockout relay gets temporarily activated (or de-activated... I hear it switching... will check again). Was saving that for another post, but could be related. I haven't run the solenoid test check to see if they are hitting the correct order... will try that... good tip. thx!

#46 6 years ago
Quoted from srcdube:

When ball goes into Golden Cliffs the CoinLockout relay gets temporarily activated (or de-activated... I hear it switching... will check again).

This happens in emulation too, so it's probably normal.

Have you tried verifying your calculated tone frequencies with an oscilloscope or frequency counter on your sound board?

Not sure if the below is useful. It's the sound/tone select sent from the MPU board to the sound board (i.e. whats present on the SOL-A,B,C,D,E signals) during the end of ball bonus countdown. Decimal numbers column on the very left indicate the bonus number, the numbers after it from left to right are the sound/tone select commands (in hex format). 49k bonus is top left, 1k bonus is the last value on the bottom right.

49k: 00, 02, 04, 05, 07, 09, 0B, 0C, 02, 04
39k: 06, 07, 09, 0B, 0D, 0E, 04, 06, 08, 09
29k: 0B, 0D, 10, 11, 06, 08, 0A, 0B, 0D, 10
19k: 12, 13, 08, 0A, 0C, 0D, 10, 12, 14, 15
09k: 0A, 0C, 0E, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18

#47 6 years ago

Bally games always switch off the coin lockout coil when there is a ball in a eject or hole.
Gives the cpu more time to do other things.
This also happens during bonus count if I remember correctly.

#48 6 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

This happens in emulation too, so it's probably normal.

Bally games always switch off the coin lockout coil when there is a ball in a eject or hole.
Gives the cpu more time to do other things.
This also happens during bonus count if I remember correctly.

Weird... but works for me... one less thing to investigate.

#49 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

This happens in emulation too, so it's probably normal.
Have you tried verifying your calculated tone frequencies with an oscilloscope or frequency counter on your sound board?
Not sure if the below is useful. It's the sound/tone select sent from the MPU board to the sound board (i.e. whats present on the SOL-A,B,C,D,E signals) during the end of ball bonus countdown. Decimal numbers column on the very left indicate the bonus number, the numbers after it from left to right are the sound/tone select commands (in hex format). 49k bonus is top left, 1k bonus is the last value on the bottom right.
49k: 00, 02, 04, 05, 07, 09, 0B, 0C, 02, 04
39k: 06, 07, 09, 0B, 0D, 0E, 04, 06, 08, 09
29k: 0B, 0D, 10, 11, 06, 08, 0A, 0B, 0D, 10
19k: 12, 13, 08, 0A, 0C, 0D, 10, 12, 14, 15
09k: 0A, 0C, 0E, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18

kewl... you mentioned emulator... is this from the PROM code? Are there text files with the prom code? It's been a very very long time, but it may be fun someday to look at the code and figure out all that it's doing. Machine code! ooo yeah!

Given the Hexidecimal I'll need to convert that to the 5 bit binary for each... which bits become the A,B,C,D,E signals? LSB and MSB?

12 becomes 16+2=18 = 10100... are A and C high, or C and E?

Based on my table, it looks like they're increasing in frequency like I remember... although I thought the frequency only got higher if you had a high score...Is this sequence only if you drain all the way from 49K and there's a different sequence at lower amounts... ie... if you only had 09K.... would it also drain with the sequence starting with OA... or would it use one of the other sequences? or the higher the score you get, it actually starts at a lower frequency but always finishes at the same high frequencies?

The counting is slow enough that I should probably be able to pick out where in the sequence it's not increasing in pitch in the correct order... see if there's a pattern.

Unfortunately, no oscilloscope to look at signals... just multimeter and logic probe (but you can do lots with them)... I may have a neighbour who's even more of a techno-geek than me... i'll see if he has a scope.

Do you also have the sequence for the Test chime that repeats in test mode? Probably too fast for me to follow anyway.

#50 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

49k: 00, 02, 04, 05, 07, 09, 0B, 0C, 02, 04
39k: 06, 07, 09, 0B, 0D, 0E, 04, 06, 08, 09
29k: 0B, 0D, 10, 11, 06, 08, 0A, 0B, 0D, 10
19k: 12, 13, 08, 0A, 0C, 0D, 10, 12, 14, 15
09k: 0A, 0C, 0E, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18

How do the bonus multipliers affect it... it sounds like for 5X it's doing something like this:

49k: 00, 00, 00, 00, 00, 02, 02,02,02,02, 04, 04, 04, 04, 04, 05, 05, 05, 05, 05, 07, ... is that correct?

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