Bally Nashville not finding wins on cards 4-6

Greetings - Nashville was in the pile of bingos I got from Lloyd recently...it looks very clean and complete. I consider myself very lucky that it starts up and plays almost 100% (there was a note on it that said "Ready"). The only thing that isn't working is that it won't find "wins" on cards 4-6.
I have the schematic, but haven't had enough bingo experience yet to know WTF is going on.
It clatters and finds the first 3 cards' wins, then just a "clunk", pause, "clunk", pause, "clunk" as it skips over cards 4-6 wins.
Also, when adding coins, it gives 4 credits per coin. When you push the credit button to buy cards and features, it gives two cards about every other time (debits 2 credits even though button was pushed only once).
Here are a few pics that show the condition of the game...

NashvilleSide (resized).jpg

NashvilleLitUp (resized).jpg

NashvilleDoor (resized).jpg

NashvilleHead (resized).jpg

#2 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

The searching in Nashville is split across three search discs - the main control unit has cards 1-2, the big disc mounted on the back door closest to the control units is 3-4 and the one mounted right beside that is 5-6.

The searching happens in sequence, meaning that 1-2 must fully complete before it triggers 3-4.

If it stops after 3 - the most likely cause is a dirty 3-4 search disc.

If it stops after 4, there is a switch that the 3-4 search disc wiper arm hits upon completion that should trigger the 5-6 wiper release.

Hope that helps!

#3 4 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

Quoted from bingopodcast:
The searching in Nashville is split across three search discs - the main control unit has cards 1-2, the big disc mounted on the back door closest to the control units is 3-4 and the one mounted right beside that is 5-6.
The searching happens in sequence, meaning that 1-2 must fully complete before it triggers 3-4.
If it stops after 3 - the most likely cause is a dirty 3-4 search disc.
If it stops after 4, there is a switch that the 3-4 search disc wiper arm hits upon completion that should trigger the 5-6 wiper release.
Hope that helps!

After looking everything over, cleaning and adjusting switches, and making sure my search discs all stop at "0", now the search and CU motors run continuously as soon as I turn the machine on. Something has stopped working because I worked on it...typical...
When the machine first turns on, it knocks off any credits like it should, and then opens the shutter. A game can't start because it's stuck in "search mode". What switch should I look for that might be keeping the motors running?

#4 4 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from DCP:
After looking everything over, cleaning and adjusting switches, and making sure my search discs all stop at "0", now the search and CU motors run continuously as soon as I turn the machine on. Something has stopped working because I worked on it...typical...
When the machine first turns on, it knocks off any credits like it should, and then opens the shutter. A game can't start because it's stuck in "search mode". What switch should I look for that might be keeping the motors running?

I've had a little success now adjusting and cleaning stepper contacts and switches...the game now registers a "win" on card 4, but skips over to the next card before counting the credits. If I hit the "R" button quickly, it will count credits for card 4. I can't get it to consistently go through all 3 search discs. Sometimes it just spins and never releases the disc. Other times, all discs release in sequence, but discs 5-6 never register their wins.
Now I'm focusing on the replay counters and the search index relay...at least I'm not making it worse every time I work on it!
Thanks to everyone so far for your help. Extra big thanks to DennisDodel for sending me a Green Book for the asking. I'm definitely in the Bingo Club now! Nashville will be playing 100% soon...

#5 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

The search index relay (there are three) is what stops the search disc and allows the game to rack up wins. If the search disc is dirty/misaligned it will skip over wins. If the search index is pulsing, but not catching, the bottom-most switch needs to be adjusted on the search index relay. This is really really tricky business on the six card games with three discs. It's difficult to do and easy to misadjust accidentally. The best advice I can give you is try to inspect and make subtle tweaks to the switch - and only adjust the short blade. Re-test after each adjustment.

If you are seeing big sparks on the search disc as it attempts to find the winner, then the search disc itself needs a cleaning.

There are a set of tensioned wires that ride in the slip rings near the search discs. The grooves they ride in have to be clean. I use a piece of twine and floss each section. Then I apply a bit of pressure as I tighten down the nut that holds them in place. Make sure that there is only one wiper/rider in each slip ring or you'll have a fun new problem to find.

If the search discs are having trouble 'homing' then wear of the bakelite disc that stops the cam from rotating might be to blame. This is a common issue for Nashville/Dixieland/High Flyer, etc.

The easiest way to fix is to either: move the search magnet forward a little bit so that it catches earlier or to cut a new notch and move it backwards. This is general advice and not specific to your problem as I don't know which of the problems you might have!

Keep going - and if you post some pictures or video of the search process, perhaps we can help further.

1 week later

#6 4 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

Quoted from bingopodcast:
The search index relay (there are three) is what stops the search disc and allows the game to rack up wins.

Thanks, Nick, I've been working on bingos and many other things this week...made some progress. I started looking at Wall Street too, which is similar but only uses 2 search discs for 6 cards because there are fewer win combos than Nashville. Now I have both working a lot better, although each still has payout issues. Most of the problems with Nashville still seem to be disc alignment. Wall Street doesn't pay out specials like corners or superlines. I'll post some video later...
So far, I've already got 2 nearly-working bingos, with 13 more to look at still! I think one Wall Street is going to be a parts machine, but most of the other 6-cards can be cheap "players" for someone eventually. There is a Sun Valley in the pile that looks saveable! Missing lower door hinge, head box needs repair...new topic for that one later.

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#7 4 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

The 1970s six card games require very careful alignment of the search discs. Misaligned discs will cause 'christmas tree' lighting of multiple numbers on the backglass as the search discs rotate. They must be on the zero rivet for each disc (and very slightly forward so that the last wiper is centered).

Corners or superlines - check to see if the search index tries to pull for those or not. If not, then the trip relays for the corners or superlines might need attention.

Also: if you have taken apart the search disc stack on Wall Street, it is very very easy to reassemble it incorrectly. The search wiper disc has two plastic 'teeth' on either side and they must go in the corresponding socket on the shaft of the control unit. If they are slightly out, then there will be enough wobble to drive you nuts - it will pay properly some of the time, but will cause it to miss certain payouts. Be aware that all the 1970s six cards are prone to this and that it is possible to put it back together snugly, but incorrectly. How do I know? I've done it before, and it took me an evening to figure out what I did wrong.

Sun Valley is one my all-time favorite games. I wonder why those upper odds were scraped and decaled?

10 months later

#8 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

I was working on Nashville today still trying to get payouts to work on cards 5-6.
It finds wins, but the 5-6 search index coil just buzzes and will not lock in. It pays wins OK on cards 1-4.
Here's a video so you can see and hear what's going on.
When I hold the wipers on a win, the relay clatters loudly and doesn't hold.
baldtwit or bingopodcast , any ideas?
I've gotten frustrated having Nashville 95% working, and not being able to solve the last few problems...

#9 3 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

I would suggest that the search index switches need adjustment or cleaning for the 5-6 search index. They are -really- finicky and unfortunately always in a bit of a tight spot. Couple of tricks: 1) stand on a step-stool before adjusting (unless you're a lot taller than me). or 2) You can lift the door off and set it flat temporarily on some sawhorses or something behind the machine at the appropriate height.

Keep in mind that those switches require a real feather touch when adjusting - a little goes a LONG way.

Since the search index is trying to pull in some positions, it's finding the winner, but the coil isn't locking in quickly enough to pay you. You're very close.

#10 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

Which "search index switches" ? There are only two switches that I can see (from my stepstool)...they appear to be adjusted correctly, so I will clean them and see if that helps.
It's confusing because there is also a "Search Index Relay" that has switches that connect to the search index coils.

#11 3 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

The two you're looking at (the ones on the relay behind the gear which stops the search disc wipers) are the correct ones. They can appear to be fine, but the amount of travel in those is miniscule. It has to engage and hold very very quickly.

#12 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

Found this post from baldtwit from about a year ago that explained how to adjust the search index so it will lock in the gear tooth properly. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/single-coin-tech-help#post-4886767
I spent about 3 hours messing with the switch adjustments and the position of the index coil bracket. No luck.
It still buzzes really loudly and does not hold the coil in when I hold the wipers on a winner. I've changed the position of the bracket up and down, but it always seems to hit a gear tooth instead of sliding smoothly between the teeth.
It seems to release the coil right after activating it - it never holds it in.
What other switch could be releasing too soon or not making good contact? There's really not much in that circuit. I've cleaned and adjusted everything that I could find that looked like it would affect the search index coil.
I'm suspecting that I need to adjust the search wiper release coil somehow. The wiper release and index coil adjustments interact somehow that I haven't figured out yet.
One more thing - one of the three 30 ohm 10 watt resistors that are in the index coil circuits only measures about 8 ohms. Could this be causing the coil to "machine-gun"? Or would this just make the coil get hotter during a long payout?

#13 3 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

OP
Quoted from DCP:
It seems to release the coil right after activating it - it never holds it in.

Check that the coil bracket stops the wipers in the center-ish of the rivets. If not, adjust the bracket until they do.

OP
Quoted from DCP:
What other switch could be releasing too soon or not making good contact? There's really not much in that circuit. I've cleaned and adjusted everything that I could find that looked like it would affect the search index coil.

The search disc itself might be dirty, or the slip ring wipers or slip rings (that the wipers sit in). The same search relays pay out every other win, so it's not them.

OP
Quoted from DCP:
I'm suspecting that I need to adjust the search wiper release coil somehow. The wiper release and index coil adjustments interact somehow that I haven't figured out yet.

Hmm, that's possible. But it would cause other problems (paying out constantly or inappropriately). There is a switch stack that moves when the search magnet pulls to tell the machine that it's searching on that set of cards. Check those switches. I don't recall where they are mounted on those later six cards, but they'll be mounted right in your face on the front of the search disc in question and change state once the search begins.

OP
Quoted from DCP:
One more thing - one of the three 30 ohm 10 watt resistors that are in the index coil circuits only measures about 8 ohms. Could this be causing the coil to "machine-gun"? Or would this just make the coil get hotter during a long payout?

That should be within tolerance. The machine gunning, in my experience, is usually caused by dirt or improper placement of search index coil bracket or improper adjustment of the search index switches.

#14 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

Ok, I've adjusted and cleaned everything again. I tried activating the solenoid with the bracket detached (see video) by holding the wipers on a winner and it still buzzes and won't hold.
I think I will try a different coil next. I am out of ideas, except maybe to pitch this bingo off of the 4th floor of my warehouse onto the CSX tracks in front of a freight train.
I enjoy a good electromechanical puzzle as much as anyone, but this has gotten ridiculously time-consuming and is quickly draining the fun out of bingo for me.
It's not the switches on the index coil, it's not the engagement of the armature to the gear, any more ideas, guys? Bad coil?

#15 3 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

Broken winding on coil, yeah, if the switches are set properly.

#16 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

I will borrow a coil from another machine and try it. I'll definitely let you know if that fixes it!

#17 3 years ago

???

Terry1

Pinside+ Frequent

Moncton, NB

7y 36,150 401

I had a (similar?) problem with my index coil.
When that relay energized, if there was something holding the
"flapper" from moving all the way down, it would buzz.
In my instance, the lever to stop the search disk(CU), was hitting the tip of the(a)
gear, in stead of going into the "valley".
Just a thought
Terry K

#18 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

FINALLY - found the problem! The 30 ohm power resistor was a suspect, but I measured it and got "8 ohms". I didn't see the little "M" on the display! That's what happens when you are trying to read a meter while you're inside of a bingo head.
It actually measures about 3-8 megohms. Makes sense now, doesn't it? Once the resistor was switched into the circuit, the current to the coil dropped to almost nothing...BZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
Pulled a resistor from a parts bingo and now the index coil pulls in and holds and doesn't buzz. Just need to fine tune the armature adjustment now. It's finding wins on cards 5-6 for the first time since I've owned it (this thread started 11 months ago).
I know a LOT more about bingos than when I started, so it's all good! Thanks to all who helped with the troubleshooting.
Here is the circuit that contains the power resistors:

BallyNashvilleSearchIndexCoilCircuit (resized).png

#19 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member

From Phil's site: "current limiting resistor bad - there is often a big ceramic resistor that is in the circuit to the search index coil. It's job is to reduce the current flow through the search index coil once it has been powered...thus reducing the heat generated by the coil on big payouts. If the resistor is bad, the search index coil will drop out as soon as the replay cams index coil powers. The sneaky thing is the resistor is not always physically located near the search index coil itself. For manufacturing convenience, it sometimes is connected to the switches on the replay cams index unit. You need to check the schem to see if you have one of these."

#20 3 years ago

???

okorange

Pinside member

Denver, CO

7y 33,550 215 13

bingopodcast I just saw this thread, you asked "Sun Valley is one my all-time favorite games. I wonder why those upper odds were scraped and decaled?" You probably know this by now, but that machine must have been operated in Washington state, where the max odds allowed were 160. Everything on that glass above 160 has been tampered with.

#21 3 years ago

NWB

bingopodcast

Yep, wasn't thinking when I made that comment. Haha

Also, would have helped if I had read your post more closely. 10 ohms measuring 8 is fine, but 30 measuring 8 is not. . Problem with skimming instead of reading. Sorry about that.

#22 3 years ago

DCP

Pinside member