I'm thinking it's going to have something to do with the Bonus Zero Relay. Since there isn't a 5000 point relay, something else has to be pulsing the score motor five times to get the 5000 points. And then something is changing on the last ball, like a double bonus feature maybe? Still looking into it, but I wanted you to know that I'm trying to track down a solution for you. There are really only four paths to 1000 points, so we should be able to narrow it down.

detail on 1000 point relay 1.png

Or it may be because of the Up Post and its connection to the 00-90 match unit. There are five positions on the 00-90 that can pulse the 1000 point relay through the Up Post. One way to isolate the problem would be to put some cardboard between the Up Post relay switches so that it can't activate, then try draining the ball and see if it collects 5000. If it doesn't, that should mean the problem is with the Up Post relay back to the Bonus Unit 00-99. If it still does it, then it's something to do with the Bonus Zero and Alley/Top hole relays. I doubt it's the far right two as they're involved in pulsing the 1000 relay for carry overs from 100s and I believe to reset the scores.

And there has to be a common connection between the outhole, the credit button, a score motor switch (to explain the five pulses), and the 1000 point relay.

I can't make out the label on the extra wire you found in either the Mariner or Sea Ray schematics. It kind of looks like 53, but I'm not sure. What color is the wire on the jones plug block it's soldered to?

Perhaps the extra wire was to a total play meter? They're usually near the score motor.

This seems like something really obvious and my brain is just failing me in finding it. Watching the one video of Mariner on YouTube, it looks like the bonus under the yellow bumper changes randomly from 1000 to 5000 points. That would tie into the 00-90 unit changing positions and "randomly" making the bonus be worth more. I'm thinking more and more that it's the Up Post Relay has a switch misadjusted that's keeping it closed all the time and as the 00-90 match unit advances it's scoring points.

Oh, one easy way to test that would be to turn the game on, take the ball out, then advance the match unit stepper manually through all its steps to see if it scores any points.

Does advancing the 00-90 match unit do anything? Also, do the amounts each player gets correspond to the lit values under the yellow bumper? So if 3000 is lit is that how much the next player gets when the ball drains?

Also, even if the Up Post relay itself doesn't engage, if one of the switches on the relay that's normally open when it's off were actually closed then it'd behave just like the relay was on.

Here's what I'm picturing. If an Up Post switch to 1000 points were always closed, even with the relay off, and the score motor is engaged by anything, including the start/credit button, scoring other points, having the outhole relay engage, etc., then it creates a path through the 00-90 unit, the score motor switches, through the Up Post relay switch that shouldn't be closed, to the 1000 point relay.

I actually keep meaning to change that. I live in Johns Creek, GA now. Otherwise I'd have offered to just come over and work on it with you in person.

Based on what you've tested, it sounds like it's not the 00-90 unit and the Up Post doing it at all, and that it's the bonus zero relay, like I originally suspected and then disregarded several posts ago. *sigh* Isn't it fun to troubleshoot EMs?

Alright, so it appears to be an issue with the bonus unit. I'm going to get some rest and look at the schematic again tomorrow with fresh eyes (alright, maybe I'll keep plugging away it...). I can tell you that's it normal for the Bonus Zero relay to pull in when the bonus unit disc is on position 0. It's the only thing that holds that relay on.

Hmm. I had to check the state that Bally schematics are drawn in. If what I'm reading is correct, that a game is started, a ball is in the trough, then the game is turned off, so all the coils are de-energized, then it makes more sense. The Bonus Zero switch is normally closed when the Bonus Unit is at 0 position. It energizes the Bonus Zero Relay as long as its in that position. When that relay pulls in, it turns off that normally closed switch that connects the Top Hole and Right Alley relays to the 1000 point relay. So when you collect the bonus from the alley or the hole it's supposed to score it and when it gets to zero it should open that switch and cut off access to the 1000 point relay. The Bonus Reset relay should be doing the same thing, but not actually scoring any points while doing it.

I have to ponder on it a bit more. I'd recommend tinkering with the bonus in the meantime. If you build the bonus up to 10000 for instance, then put the ball out, does it award 10000 points to the next player? Does it collect the bonus properly from the top hole and right alley?

Okay, I think I might have figured it out. When the Outhole switch closes, it creates a path to the Bonus Reset relay through the Bonus Unit Disc. Once the Bonus Reset relay pulls in, it should hold itself on while the score motor decrements the bonus back to zero. It sounds like what's happening is the Bonus Reset is only tripping once and not holding itself on, since it gives 3000 to one player, then 2000, and so on.

Try cleaning and adjusting the switches on the Bonus Reset relay. There is one normally open switch that should close when the relay pulls in that hold the relay on.

Oh, something may also be misadjusted on the top hole or right alley relays because if neither of those is closed, there shouldn't be a path to the 1000 point relay. The score motor rotations that should be decrementing the bonus unit are scoring points instead, but that shouldn't be possible unless one of those other two relays that normally collects the bonus in game is pulled in or has one of its switches misadjusted.

// Error: Image 419059 not found //

I believe I can explain why you can't play ball 1. The ball is in the outhole. Points are immediately scored. That pulls in the ball index relay. Through the outhole switch and ball index the ball count stepper increments. So it thinks when you start a game that you scored points and lost the ball.

Check the bonus reset relay, top relay, and right alley relays. As far as I can tell, they should all have normally open switches when not energized. If one of them is closed, that may be the problem.

It is normal behavior for the game to reset to 0 then step up to 1000. At 0 the bonus zero relay is pulled in and it cuts off access to the 1000 point relay through the top hole and right alley relays. That's why it doesn't give you the extra points when you manually close the bonus zero relay.

I think we are closing in on it.

I just wanted to take a moment and thank JoeNewberry for providing such great advice.

I also want to thank fings1 for keeping us updated on his progress as well as letting us know the solution to his problem.

This has been a great thread!

Marcus

I'm glad you were able to fix it, but I'm still not sure I understand what was happening myself. I wasn't thinking about a misadjusted outhole switch at all. Out of curiosity, what were the colors of the wires going to that switch you adjusted?

Also, is the Bonus Reset Relay pulling in now or is it still not doing anything like you mentioned before?

Yes, that makes way more sense! Heh, I kept looking and looking at the outhole relay on the schematic and could not get how it could cause the problem.

I'm sorry I had to flail around so much, but at least we got to the bottom of it. The relevant part of the schematic is in that first picture I posted. Work backward from the 1000 point relay. The Up post we eliminated, the far right switches relate to carry over on the reels, so that just left the Bonus zero relay switch. When the Bonus zero relay is not energized the switch there is closed(the schematic is drawn as it would be with the power off, so the relays are drawn deenergized), providing a path to 1000 points. When the bonus unit is at zero, the Bonus zero relay pulls in and that opens that switch cutting off access to the 1000 point relay. Normally, that path would only complete if the top hole or right alley relays pulled in because they were activated on the playfield, and the bonus unit was at 1000 or more so the Bonus zero relay would be off. Instead, the switch on the top hole relay was always closed. When the outhole switch is activated it's supposed to step down the bonus, but since a path was there from the score motor through the top hole switch through the closed Bonus zero switch, it was collecting points during the reset. Once it counted down to zero the Bonus zero relay would pull in and open that switch back up, cutting off the points.

Thanks! Since you mentioned you were trying to figure out how I worked it out with the schematic, I thought you might like to get a blow by blow explanation for future reference. Most of the time EM schematic reading is about finding the relevant coil or switch and working backwards, just like this one.

If you have the inclination, I wouldn't mind seeing a video of your Mariner in action. The couple on YouTube aren't very good. This seems like a pretty neat game.

You know we also never figured out your mystery blue wire. One part ends at nothing near the score motor. Where does the other end go from the jones plug jack?

Weird blue wire to nowhere. A good video would show the game in action without panning up to the score and show all the features.

I have a Sea Ray and I have a very similar problem but just different enough to make me ask about it...... this thread has been very enlightening .... I suspect my Bonus 0 relay but everything looks good to me there.

Here is my problem: Everything on my Sea Ray works pretty much as it should except when it collects the bonus.
It's always 5000 unless I have actually accumulated more than 5000, then it works properly.

So if I have 2000 bonus racked up and I hit collect, I get 5000.
If I have 7000 racked up and I hit collect, I get 7000 as I should.
If I have nothing..well 1000 is the minimum and 1000 is lit up but if I collect it, I get 5000.

It does this on every ball for both players, it's always 5000 minimum.

Any idea?

I SOLVED MY SEA RAY PROBLEM!! I am not trying to highjack this thread..sorry if it seems that way, fings1 problem was solved and this thread was so similar to my own problem with the same machine that I had to jump in...please forgive me and please read on.

Thanks to this thread and fings1 and JoeNewBerry...very much... thank you thank you thank you!

Read the post right above this one for the problem I had.

What I did.... When JoeNewBerry said this... "There are really only four paths to 1000 points, so we should be able to narrow it down."
and circled it on the schematic...it really opened the door for me to understand my problem.

I didn't get it instantly...but everything led me back to the Bonus Zero relay....so I observed it over and over until finally I realized that I had never actually seen it fire. Switches all look proper.
Manually tripping it would kind of fix my problem...my timing was off but it seemed like it would work if that relay worked.

So thanks to another thread I figured out how to test all my coils and I discovered that my coil was fine. No problem there.

So I started tracing the wires that power the coil... one is red/white, the other is orange/black.
The schematic I have is the online one here.... https://ia801001.us.archive.org/22/items/SearaySchematic/searay_full_compressed_text.pdf

I started with red/white... seems like that's a power wire, it goes to the tilt relay and I see the same color wire coming off the power supply and fuse block..but no problems there.

Then I go to trace the orange and black. BINGO!

At the Bonus unit the orange and black wire was still intact however the ground wire on the other side of the switch lug was broken off.
Quick re solder...I am thinking the whole time, "I can't believe it could be so simple" and BAM..it's fixed.

So I can't thank you guys enough for getting me looking in the right place.

But...as always, that leads me to another question.

I am an EM noob big time... newer pins I do ok with but EMs are a new (to me) beast.

So I want to be able to find what I fixed on the schematic so I can understand the schematic better. I know I could have been a few faded wires away from not figuring this out at all.

It's blurry but I can find one of those 2 wire colors mentioned above on the schematic at F10 on the bonus zero relay (the orange and black one.. (color code 7B) but I can't find the other and I can't find the same colors connecting to the bonus unit step up.

How could I have figured this out with the schematic without tracing wires by sight?
I would have liked to been able to look at the schematic and said.."Ah, orange and black connect to the bonus unit, I should look there"

But for the life of me I can't see it. What am I looking at wrong?

Hi FugTM
great You have solved Your "Sea Ray problem". I do not see why You want to find "same color at the "Bonus-STEP-UP-COIL"" (?). Your problem was "Bonus-Zero-Relay never pulling". Schema-J-19: Score-Motor-2D pulses 5 times each turn -> (go down to G-19) -> the Bonus-Zero-Relay was "faulty-not-pulling" - therefore the "Switch-on-Bonus-Zero-Relay" was not open -> every time (at end of a ball) You have gotten those 5000 Points.
And NOW we come to MY problem: HOW are the 1000 points given when the Bonus-Ladder is stepped-down (5 times 1000 pulsed by the Score-Motor-2D) ? In the schema-G-19 I see "Switch-on-Right-Alley-Relay" and "Switch-on-Top-Hole-Relay" AND THERE I would like to see "a Switch-on-Bonus-Reset-Relay" - but there is no such switch drawn. Or I would like to see "a End-of-Stroke-Switch closed by the (travelling) plunger on Bonus-Step-Down" - strange. I have looked -> ipdb.org -> Mariner -> schema-Mariner: there also are no such switches.

FugTM, If You are interested in (my problem and) Your "reading schematics": Want to start a new topic ? Greetings Rolf

Well if you start a new topic I will certainly try to help you figure it out.
I am about as noob as noob can be but I am really trying to dive head 1st into this hobby and learn as much as I can so I will not only try to help if you start a new thread, I will learn too...also I am trying not to bother these good people too much.

If you do start a new thread please PM me the link so I can join in and not miss it.

Hi FugTM
I call myself a "Nostalgic" - not a "Collector". Since 2007 I have bought my favourite pins (I have played as a Teenager in the 70ies) - about 3 Gottliebs and around 12 Williams. Bally ? well, maybe "Space Time" - but I decided "No Bally pins (and so I do not have to have Bally replacement parts"). The way they are built and the logic: Williams and Bally are similar - so I can help in pinside.
I once read: "Checked and counterchecked "reality in the pin <-> schema" and found: Two switches were in the schema BUT not in the pin - one switch in the pin BUT not in the schema". So I (for myself) say "probably an error / fault in the schema" ...

If You want to investigate how the (times) 1000-Points bonus are given to the player - fine, otherwise we let it as a "mistery". Greetings Rolf

P.S.: You want to dive into this fine hobby (playing and do maintenance / repairs by Yourself) - You will not bother anybody - this forum is "for to help".
(My personal preference) One problem - one topic - think of "Newbies" wanting to learn - and one topic has (example) 91 posts.