(Topic ID: 230163)

Bally Lost World rectifier/power supply issue


By Tbever

7 months ago



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  • 51 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 68 days ago by Tbever
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    There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 7 months ago

    I am attempting to revive a Lost World I picked up. I get general illumination but nothing else. The rectifier was been replaced with a rottendog board at some point previously. Im getting good readings away TP1, TP2, and TP3 but nothing at TP4 and TP5.

    According to the repair guide I have been following on http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm#battery TP4 should be supplying the general illumination... but that is working even though it is giving me a zero read.

    Do I need to work backwards to the power supply or do more investigating on the rectifier? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Also, sorry for the duplicate image. I could not find how to delete it. Thanks!

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    #2 7 months ago

    Check the fuses - pull them out and test. The TP4 is AC, since you have GI, I'm guessing you were trying to read DC volts instead of AC volts.

    You also need to replace those connectors to the board. They have been hacked, and its likely you have a bad connection going to the rest of the machine.
    Concentrate on the rectifier board first.

    #3 7 months ago

    Do you have the schematics . J1 pin 9 . this pin was never used in this game , the new board you have has that extra pin at 9 ,
    So move that red wire on pin 9 to pin 8 .
    You should also re-pin the wires with the trufricon crimps and new sockets instead of soldering it straight to the pin ,
    That should fix it , if not take f1 and f2 out and test them with a meter
    Great Plains electronics carry everything you will need , including the crimpers
    Part Number 08-50-0185 are the pins you should use on the GI's
    Good luck

    #5 7 months ago

    Here's a pic of the correct wiring for this game.

    Lost World rectifier board (resized).png
    #6 7 months ago
    Quoted from Billc479:

    The TP4 is AC, since you have GI, I'm guessing you were trying to read DC volts instead of AC volts.

    Ah, you are correct sir. I thought about that awhile after I walked away. It does read correctly when set to read AC.

    I also pulled and checked the fuses and found that a 5A was bad. Ill set my sights on replacing it the connectors now. Thanks!

    #7 7 months ago
    Quoted from Ralph67:

    J1 pin 9 . this pin was never used in this game , the new board you have has that extra pin at 9 ,
    So move that red wire on pin 9 to pin 8 .
    Great Plains electronics carry everything you will need , including the crimpers
    Part Number 08-50-0185 are the pins you should use on the GI's
    Good luck

    That is interesting. Any idea why they would have soldered it onto pin 9?

    Would you reccomend just buying a connector pin rebuild kit? I see they have them on macrospecilaties.com for about $10. Thanks.

    #8 7 months ago
    Quoted from Mk1Mod0:

    Start with connectors. Then test one thing at a time.
    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Powering_up_the_first_time
    [quoted image]

    Thanks for the resource.

    #9 7 months ago
    Quoted from buffaloatx:

    Here's a pic of the correct wiring for this game.[quoted image]

    That looks nice. Is it your machine?

    #10 7 months ago
    Quoted from Tbever:

    That is interesting. Any idea why they would have soldered it onto pin 9?
    Would you reccomend just buying a connector pin rebuild kit? I see they have them on macrospecilaties.com for about $10. Thanks.

    Id say the old housing was burnt so they just soldered it on , Yes get the right connectors, as you can see it looks a lot neater ,
    and did you change the wire from pin 9 to pin 8?? Because it wont work without doing this

    #11 7 months ago
    Quoted from Tbever:

    Any idea why they would have soldered it onto pin 9?

    I have come across this same thing before when people have put these new boards into games without realising J1 has a extra pin at 9 .
    Because they didn't double check , Because its the end pin they must of thought that it was the correct pin, but it's not of course .
    As you can see in Buffaloatx pic that pin 9 is not used .
    When checking voltages the first time , Just have J2 fitted , then after you get all the correct voltages , plug j1 and j3 back in
    Good luck

    #12 7 months ago
    Quoted from Ralph67:

    Did you change the wire from pin 9 to pin 8?? Because it wont work without doing this

    I have not. I recently moved and can't seem to find my soldering iron. I may just break down and buy a new one if I cant find it soon. In the meantime I'll get a connector kit. Thanks.

    #13 7 months ago
    Quoted from Tbever:

    That looks nice. Is it your machine?

    No, I found that in a post here. I thought when I copied it it would pull the link for that post with it. I'll see if I can find it again for reference.

    #14 7 months ago

    Here it is, not sure if this will be needed, but something in here might be useful.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1978-lost-world-help

    #15 6 months ago
    Quoted from Ralph67:

    When checking voltages the first time , Just have J2 fitted , then after you get all the correct voltages , plug j1 and j3 back in
    Good luck

    So I desoldered and repositioned the red wire to pin 8. No change in activity. I killed the power and removed J1 and J3. This time I am getting 155 on TP2 which looks like it should actually be getting 230. Also on TP4 I am getting 6.9 but it should be 7.3. Maybe thats just the innaccuracy of my cheap DMM. MY Next inclination is to find the schematics and look for any faults along that path. Do you have any suggestions?

    #16 6 months ago

    Those voltages are not that far off. What are you getting on the solenoid driver board? TP5 should be 11.9 VDC and TP1 should be 5 VDC.

    When you turn it on do you get anything on the LED on the MPU?

    #17 6 months ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    Those voltages are not that far off. What are you getting on the solenoid driver board? TP5 should be 11.9 VDC and TP1 should be 5 VDC.
    When you turn it on do you get anything on the LED on the MPU?

    I have not checked any of the test points on the solenoid driver board yet. There has not been any flashing from the LED on the MPU either.

    #18 6 months ago

    The power supply supplies 11.9 volts to the driver board - the driver board sends 11.9 and 5 volts to the MPU.

    Is the LED solid on or solid off?

    #19 6 months ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    The power supply supplies 11.9 volts to the driver board - the driver board sends 11.9 and 5 volts to the MPU.
    Is the LED solid on or solid off?

    Ah yeah, sorry I didn't specify. The LED is solid off.

    #20 6 months ago
    Quoted from Tbever:

    I have not checked any of the test points on the solenoid driver board yet.

    Check the test points. Very important.
    MPU TP1 = +4.9 to 5.2 vdc Also measure AC ripple, something well under 1V AC ripple is desirable.

    #21 6 months ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Check the test points. Very important.
    MPU TP1 = +4.9 to 5.2 vdc Also measure AC ripple, something well under 1V AC ripple is desirable.

    Will do. I wish I could just leave work and tinker with this all day.

    I did randomly notice there is a chip missing from the MPU (see photo).

    Screenshot_20181127-083759_Messages (resized).jpgScreenshot_20181127-083835_Chrome (resized).jpg
    #22 6 months ago
    Quoted from Tbever:

    Will do. I wish I could just leave work and tinker with this all day.
    I did randomly notice there is a chip missing from the MPU (see photo).
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    That is normal. Bally Lost World ROMs are U2 & U6, which I can see are populated in your photo. No U1 needed.

    #23 6 months ago

    That is normal. Bally Lost World ROMs are U2 &amp; U6, which I can see are populated in your photo. No U1 needed.</blockquote

    Good to know. Thanks.

    #24 6 months ago

    Assuming that all your rectifier board voltages are reading correctly now it would appear that your Solenoid Driver is the culprit.
    As stated above the SDB sends the 5 vdc to the MPU to boot it up. (along with some other things, but we can just focus on the +5vdc for now)
    If you have an ESR meter check c23 (it may be failing or failed). I'd recommend replacing that cap anyway, especially if its an original...
    you should also try this- "Check the wire terminals of the white-brown wire at pin 10 of J3 of the solenoid driver board and pin 17 of J3 of the rectifier board. Re-terminate if either are bad. - thanks to @quench for this tidbit" Set your meter to ohms and make sure you are getting zero ohms.
    There is also a bullet proofing "hack" you can do to improve the ground path and get more reliable performance from your SDB (I did this on a friends Paragon and it worked wonders, brought the 5 vdc from 4.1 to 5.12 vdc)

    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Solenoid_Driver_Upgrades

    #25 6 months ago
    Quoted from buffaloatx:

    If you have an ESR meter check c23 (it may be failing or failed). I'd recommend replacing that cap anyway, especially if its an original...
    http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Solenoid_Driver_Upgrades

    This question probably has an obvious answer but is an ESR reading something that would be on a cheap-o harbor DMM? Or do I need to buy an actual ESR meter?

    I will start trouble shooting the SBD in the next day or two. Thanks for the advice.

    #26 6 months ago
    Quoted from Tbever:

    This question probably has an obvious answer but is an ESR reading something that would be on a cheap-o harbor DMM? Or do I need to buy an actual ESR meter?
    I will start trouble shooting the SBD in the next day or two. Thanks for the advice.

    Not necessary to buy an ESR meter. Just measure that the DC voltage is in spec(4.9-5.1VDC) and the AC ripple voltage is minimal (less than 1 VAC at least, less than .5 VAC even better). Use can use just about any DMM for this.

    If you have not replaced C23, it probably needs replaced anyway.

    #27 6 months ago

    The Harbor Freight meter does not measure ESR.(Equivalent Series Resistance) You need a special meter for that. Its cheaper to replace C23 than buying a meter.

    Have you replaced the connectors yet?

    #28 6 months ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Not necessary to buy an ESR meter. Just measure that the DC voltage is in spec(4.9-5.1VDC) and the AC ripple voltage is minimal (less than 1 VAC at least, less than .5 VAC even better). Use can use just about any DMM for this.
    If you have not replaced C23, it probably needs replaced anyway.

    I will heed your advice and replace C23. You're probably correct that it needs replaced anyway.

    #29 6 months ago
    Quoted from Tbever:

    This question probably has an obvious answer but is an ESR reading something that would be on a cheap-o harbor DMM? Or do I need to buy an actual ESR meter?
    I will start trouble shooting the SBD in the next day or two. Thanks for the advice.

    An ESR is not a necessity, but does come in handy from time to time. Mine was $30 on amazon. It will allow you to test a cap in circuit more reliably than DMM set to capacitance.

    Once you get back to the game I'm betting you will find your 5 vdc is in the 4.2-4.4 range due to either a bad cap or poor ground, once you fix that i think the heavy lifting will be done on this game.

    #30 6 months ago
    Quoted from Billc479:

    Its cheaper to replace C23 than buying a meter.
    Have you replaced the connectors yet?

    Good point.

    I have not replaced the connectors yet. They are on the way.

    #31 6 months ago
    Quoted from buffaloatx:

    Once you get back to the game I'm betting you will find your 5 vdc is in the 4.2-4.4 range due to either a bad cap or poor ground, once you fix that i think the heavy lifting will be done on this game.

    Cool, hopefully that turns out to be the case.

    #32 6 months ago
    Quoted from oldschoolbob:

    The power supply supplies 11.9 volts to the driver board - the driver board sends 11.9 and 5 volts to the MPU.
    Is the LED solid on or solid off?

    So I have finally got around to doing some trouble shooting on the driver board. I am getting 15.8 on TP5 and about 5 on TP1. Some of the wires going into the J3 connector look like they have been pretty hacked and the wire going into the 12th connector is literally just resting in place. I am considering getting a connector replacement kit for the driver board.

    As far as the LED on the MPU goes, I have encountered two instances where I turn the power on and get a solid on. More often though, I have the initial flicker and then two flashes before it is solid off.

    The MPU test flow chart indicates I should be focusing on the chips. I am not sure if I should really be concentrating on those or more so on the actual MPU board which has a decent amount of corrosion and some previous work done on it. I have included some photos of the J3 connector on the driver board and some areas of the MPU board that I thought looked suspect.

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    #33 6 months ago

    Bob-

    I would definitely repin J3, and since there is battery damage, take a close look at the pins at MPU J4. I have had several instances where the corrosion crawled into the pins on J4.

    I would also reflow the connections on the ground plane for those components - they all look like cold solder joints, and clean the board with some vinegar - it looks like the corrosion has not stopped.

    This may not fix your immediate problem, (Repinning J3 might) but it will help make the whole platform more solid.

    #34 6 months ago

    You need to remove all those affected components and replace them while addressing neutralizing the corrosion according to this. procedure:

    2a. Before Turning the Game On: Removing the MPU Battery and Fixing Corrosion

    http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm#battery

    #35 6 months ago

    You'll never have a reliable game with those connectors. I always replace all headers and all connectors on every board.

    You also need to remove all the corrosion on that MPU. Make sure you get it all cleaned because it will keep coming back. Check all the IC sockets to make sure they're clean - replace if they look suspect. Then install a remote battery or NVRAM.

    If your LED is solid on then the MPU is not booting. Probably not getting 5 volts at TP5 because of the connectors. If you're getting 2 flashes the 5101 RAM is not working. Check the U8 socket - it's in the corrosion zone.

    #36 6 months ago

    Well it looks like I'll have my work cut out for me for awhile getting the board cleaned up and those components replaced. What are some thoughts on investing in a Molex crimper? I've been getting by using your typical pair of wire stripers/crimpers but it kind of seems like a pain. Maybe I just haven't gotten a good technique down. But if it saves a lot of time and hassle I may spring for the ~$20 pair.

    Also, would anyone recommend a component supplier in particular? I've placed one order with Macro Specialities and was pleased with experience. I've also seen BigDaddy Enterprises pop up in searches. Price comparison between an MPU connector kit between the two has it $10 lower on BigDaddy compared to Macro Specialities.

    #37 6 months ago

    Todd at Big Daddy's a great guy - will have no problem buying from him.
    If investing in a "Molex" crimper, you will be up over $100 for those. You can get several generics including the Waldoms in the $16 and up range. If you were replacing contacts by the thousands, I would seriously consider buying the pricey ones.

    The Molex with the "locator" is an awesome tool - it holds the contacts for you, has built in wirestops and crimps both wire and insulation at same time... and is sized to properly crimp the 0.156" contacts correctly on the first try. Can often pick up used ones on ebay in the $20 range. Watch for HTR-2445A.
    Just checked ebay - nothing worthwhile today but watch for them. The current listing for $51 is missing the locator so make sure they are complete when watching for them. Replacement locators are in the $20 range.

    #38 6 months ago

    I've had very good success with these:

    amazon.com link »

    I've done over 10 games with mine and they still work fine. Not as good as the Molex but at a fraction of the cost.

    For pinball components I always go to GPE:

    https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/

    Great prices, great selection, fast shipping, reasonable shipping cost, and all around nice guy. I've been buying from him for years and never had a problem.

    #39 6 months ago

    You need to read Vids Guide for bulletproofing Ballys, on this board.
    Lots of good tips in there.

    #40 6 months ago

    Your F5 fuse clips in the fourth picture look pretty toasty!

    2 weeks later
    #41 6 months ago

    It's been awilhe since I've posted. I've gathered some supplies and set up a workstation to do an overhaul/bullet proofing of the MPU. I'm curious to get others opinions. Should I replace the IC's on the MPU? I'm also wondering if I should replace resistors in the lower acid damaged areas of the MPU or just clean them? Thanks in advance. I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!

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    #42 6 months ago

    You don't have to replace the socketed ICs IF there are no signs of any corrosion on the component legs, but you will have to replace all affected sockets. Cleaning the components externally does nothing. The parts, especially those in the reset section nearest the battery must be replaced. There is a process to remove the components, remove all corrosion, and replace the parts in this section of the repair guides. There is a list of parts and GPE also sells a kit for this intensive repair.

    2a. Before Turning the Game On: Removing the MPU Battery and Fixing Corrosion.
    http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm#battery

    https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BALLY35-BA-KIT

    BALLY_BA_LG (resized).jpg
    #43 6 months ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    There is a list of parts and GPE also sells a kit for this intensive repair.

    Unfortunately it looks like that kit is out of stock. Is there any other supplier that provides that kit?

    #44 6 months ago

    ... GPE is waiting for a new order of sockets to arrive for the Bally35-BA-KIT.

    #45 5 months ago
    Quoted from G-P-E:

    ... GPE is waiting for a new order of sockets to arrive for the Bally35-BA-KIT.

    Do you know what the timeline for that may be? I signed up for an email notification when its back in stock.

    The only reason I ask is that I'm pretty sure I came across the same product listing a month or so ago and it was out of stock than.

    #46 5 months ago

    Been on order since November, these are due 3rd week in Jan.

    Kits are pretty much all sold out for now, I only get about one week per year to make kits. Can you guess which week?

    Ed

    #47 5 months ago
    Quoted from G-P-E:

    Been on order since November, these are due 3rd week in Jan.
    Kits are pretty much all sold out for now, I only get about one week per year to make kits. Can you guess which week?
    Ed

    I would suggest just selling them without those sockets. I just make my own sockets for those boards using the trim-able SIPP sockets... they are cheap. Anyone buying these kits to rebuild boards has the knowledge to build the sockets they need using SIPPs.

    #48 5 months ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    I would suggest just selling them without those sockets. I just make my own sockets for those boards using the trim-able SIPP sockets... they are cheap. Anyone buying these kits to rebuild boards has the knowledge to build the sockets they need using SIPPs.

    I actually did this for awhile. Surprisingly - got complaints from people that wanted DIP sockets instead of SIP sockets. Bit the bullet and ordered a new case of 0.4" x 22 pin sockets.

    #49 5 months ago
    Quoted from G-P-E:

    I actually did this for awhile. Surprisingly - got complaints from people that wanted DIP sockets instead of SIP sockets. Bit the bullet and ordered a new case of 0.4" x 22 pin sockets.

    Maybe you could make DIP / SIP an option like the inclusion of a 5101

    #50 5 months ago

    I would buy them but in all honesty, I can rebuild 5 or 6 boards with just two kits. I clean and then test all the components and generally only replace what has failed on these boards. For components that are more than $1, I generally buy those and keep a few in stock. The preassembled kits are a huge time saver but I only need to buy a couple every year or so.

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