(Topic ID: 285869)

Bally Lost World All Displays Glitching (only evens, and more)

By Knxwledge

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

The displays in my Lost World work great for ~10 mins, then they start bugging out. Hit the forums to try to figure it out, and found this thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/odd-problem-bally-star-trek) which is quite close to my problem. During test, the player displays display all 0s, then all 2s, then all 4s, etc., BUT the credit display acts completely differently. It only displays odds... Sometimes the displays will flicker between two different digits (let's say it's supposed to be displaying all 7s, sometimes it will flicker between the 6s which are improperly being displayed, and 7s which are supposed to be displayed- this behavior happens to all the displays, and is independent of the other displays). These issues persist no matter the amount of displays plugged in.

190v and 5v are solid, power supply has been rebuilt.
Repinned all MPU connectors.
Checking the output pins from MPU chip U10 (PA0-PA7) to their respective J1 pins shows 1.2kohms for all.
One of the displays is a -15 revision which doesn't have the 20k resistors leading from the header pins to the chip. Would this make a difference at all?
On the rest of the displays which are the -21 revision, chip U1 pin 5 to J1 pin 19 gives ~20kohms for all.
Pulled U10 and cleaned the legs, reseated.
Video of the problems: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tAlhzbtR9_6THxnGlqAAMXVradW3mQo3/view?usp=sharing

I'm leaning toward a bad U10 and/or a bad 40-pin socket? Any help appreciated

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Repinned before or after this problem started happening? Did you remove and check that MPU J1 pin 25 crimp terminal was done correctly?

This issue has always occurred, both before and after my recrimping. Checked pin 25, it's good.

Quoted from Quench:

The same signal from the MPU U10 chip that's responsible for the even/odd display numbers also controls selecting lamps and part of the playfield switch matrix. If lamps behave correctly (all flash in lamp test mode) when the displays bug out, then it's unlikely to be U10.
Since you've also got feature lamp issues, check the three pop bumper switches in game mode which are tied to that specific signal to see if they respond properly and/or if other abnormal things happen.

Hahaha that's great, my bottom pop bumper is acting up, funny you would mention that. When I hit the start button, the ball eject coil fires, the bottom pop bumper fires and the game scores 1800 points. Was trying to figure out the pop bumper/scoring issue as well but was at a dead end. Seems like these two issues are related, then.

Quoted from Quench:

Which position in your video is this particular display?
Doe your MPU board have previous battery corrosion? Can you post some clear high resolution pictures of it?

The -15 rev. display is in Player 1's slot. Pics attached. The MPU does have evidence of corrosion, which has been somewhat patched up by someone other than myself.
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#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Relatively speaking, that corrosion was pretty light weight.
Get the game in failure mode.
Switch off, and disconnect J4 from the lamp driver board and J2 from the MPU board.
Power back up and go back to display test. After given time do the displays play up? If not, reconnect those connectors one at a time to try and isolate which subsystem is causing the problem.

It seems like only Player 3 and 4 are messing up now, I dunno why, and it wasn't affected by J2 from the MPU or J4 from the lamp

Quoted from barakandl:

Make sure no switches are shorted at the coin door. Usually it is the start button switch. Since the U10 PIA does multiple things a shorted switch to ground can effect the lamps and displays as well.
Unplugging the switch connectors from the right side of the MPU to see if the problems clear is an easy test.

My coin door is very crusty looking, so there could be something shorted. I'm not giving this machine a full restore, I'm planning on getting it playing and selling it. I did have to wire a new test switch, and I wired in a free credit button. On the start switch, from left to middle gives 1.8Mohm, and middle to right/left to right give open.

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#9 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Were the display connectors ever repinned? Players 3 and 4 come after the credit display in the wiring chain. Maybe one of the red-white double wires at the credit display on pin 19 has a bad connection (the wire that goes to player 4 and then player 3). Pull the crimp terminal out of pin 19 at the credit display and closely inspect the crimping on the two wires.

Pin 19 for player 3 and 4 have a tight connection still. Never recrimped any of the display plugs

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#10 3 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

do the test of unplugging the switch connectors j2 and j3 from the mpu and see if the problem clears.
DMM test would be switch to ground to see if any are shorted, but just unplugging the MPU switch connectors is a lot quicker. Switch to switch short is not going to cause a display problem.
What happens and is fairly common is a switch strobe wire at the start button or slam leans on the grounded coin door. This forces PIA ports to logic low. The same PIA ports do multiple things like latching the displays. The display is latched more than it should so it shows whatever random junk. Like all 7s is really common junk display stuff.
[quoted image]

With J2 J3 on the MPU unplugged, when the game is in attract mode (player displays flash between 100000 and ----00), the displays are still acting up. Player 1 is back to acting up as well.
With the feature lights (mostly) lit i can see the exact behavior after starting a game. After starting a game, the ball trough kicks, the bonus advances once, E and F get lit

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Take the ball out of the game.
Go into switch test mode (tap the little red self test switch inside the coin door 5 times). The ball in play display should show '0' if the game sees all switches as open which it should.
If the game sees a closed switch it will report the switch number on all player displays. Write down the switch number.
Then with the game still on in switch test, disconnect J2 (playfield switch harness) live from the MPU board. Does the reported closed switch change?
If not, then disconnect J3 (cabinet switch harness) live from the MPU board. Does the reported closed switch change?
If the game still reports a closed switch with both J2 and J3 disconnected from the MPU board, then the fault is on the MPU board.

Switch test reports a '0' with J2 J3 plugged in. Also, in solenoid test, #10 does nothing. I tried verifying the EPROMs but I think my GQ-4X4 won't write 2732s without external power. Neither the 2 that I tried verifying matched (720-28 and 720-18). Not sure if this is because of my reader, or these chips being bad. Also, in the download from IPDB I found, it has 4 ROM files, and in the README, the positions listed don't match the positions my ROMs are in. Mine are in U2, U6, U7. The three they have for Lost World are supposedly supposed to be in U1, U2, U6...

#13 3 years ago

I wrote new ROMs using 2716s (as written in the README) for what it has listed as U1, U2, U6. What positions should I put these new ROMs in? The way they were, or what the README says?

#14 3 years ago

I changed the various E jumpers in accordance to the README, put the EPROMS in their correct positions. Something I noticed is that on some of the jumpers, there were resistors that had 1 single black band. Are these fine to be left off? If not where do I need to add them?

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

The resistor looking things with a black band are zero ohm resistors - in other words, jumpers.

Got it. Now with the ROMs in U1, U2 AND U6, the MPU does the quick flash on powerup, and nothing. The first time it did about 20 flashes, then every subsequent time it did nothing. Game does not boot. One step forward 2 steps back

Tried putting the old ROMs in the new locations and the LED stayed on, game was acting glitchy

With new ROMs in new positions, tried swapping U10 U11 with ones Im pretty sure are good. No change. I notice that sometimes it flashes one, sometimes it flashes twice, sometimes it doesnt flash past the initial power flash

Tried doing various combinations of the old ROMs and new ROMs. Maybe it was programmed with a 2732 and jumpered differently so there only had to be one CPU rom instead of the usual three?? On mine, U3 is unpopulated (which in the README, the given U3 ROM is listed as a sound ROM). I saw that U7 is a R/W, so I think it's necessary regardless of the ROM configuration. Do I need to add in a socket at U3 and put the sound ROM in there?

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Got it. Now with the ROMs in U1, U2 AND U6, the MPU does the quick flash on powerup, and nothing. The first time it did about 20 flashes, then every subsequent time it did nothing. Game does not boot. One step forward 2 steps back
Tried putting the old ROMs in the new locations and the LED stayed on, game was acting glitchy
With new ROMs in new positions, tried swapping U10 U11 with ones Im pretty sure are good. No change. I notice that sometimes it flashes one, sometimes it flashes twice, sometimes it doesnt flash past the initial power flash
Tried doing various combinations of the old ROMs and new ROMs. Maybe it was programmed with a 2732 and jumpered differently so there only had to be one CPU rom instead of the usual three?? On mine, U3 is unpopulated (which in the README, the given U3 ROM is listed as a sound ROM). I saw that U7 is a R/W, so I think it's necessary regardless of the ROM configuration. Do I need to add in a socket at U3 and put the sound ROM in there?

Soooo I found this image:
https://i1.pinside.com/6/14/61468e592b320a805b547da2a9c85faff9eca6e9/resized/740/61468e592b320a805b547da2a9c85faff9eca6e9.jpg

Is this readme from IPDB just wrong? Based off this photo, it's correct that U3 was never populated. I've got the right ROMs, but it looks like I've gotta change the jumper config once more. Hopefully I didn't screw anything up too bad...

This directory contains the ROMs for Bally LOST WORLD.

729-33_1.716 - U1 for CPU, 2716 [7EFF]
729-48_2.716 - U2 for CPU, 2716 [FEFE]
720-28_6.716 - U6 for CPU, 2716 [3BFE]

AS-2518-35 MPU jumpers: 1-5
2-4
7-8
10-12
11-25
13A-14
16A-18
31-32
33-35

729-18_3.123 - U3 sound ROM, 82S123/74S188 [0F34]

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The jumper settings on that image are for the factory 9316 PROMs which have different pinouts to 2716 EPROMs. The IPDB jumper list is correct. The U3 ROM file is for the sound board, not the MPU board. U7 is a RAM chip, it has nothing to do with ROMs or jumper settings.
Where did you get the 2716 chips?
What brand/full part number are they?
Which of 25V, 21V or 12.5V programming voltage type are they?
Did you write them at fastest speed? If yes I suggest overwriting them again (without erasing) at the very slowest speed.
BTW, your original ROMs are not causing your display issues. Bad ROMs will fail the power on self test and stop booting any further to prevent solenoids/displays locking on and burning.

2 of them (U2 and U6) are MBM2716Hs, and the other one is NMC27C16Q, which I got from a member on the arcade forum KLOV. I don't think my burner can do 21v or 25v, so I'm pretty sure it's 12.5v. He told me they were pulls, so they should be legit. I wrote two of them at the slowest speed, but I think I may have accidently wrote one at a higher speed. I will try rewriting them as you say. My educated guess was that since I'm having display issues, lamp issues and scoring issues that seemed to be caused by the MPU, it was caused by a bad ROM.

Edit: U1 was written improperly. Game is back to booting, the E light appears to be back on too. Back to the drawing board. I'm thinking of repinning the connector displays, unless you have other suggestions

#20 3 years ago

Game went back to not booting. Is this jumper an issue? Are these 2 pads supposed to be shorted? This is E33 to E35, but there are 2 pads at E33.

Edit: reread schematics, looks like the 2 pads at E33 are supposed to be shorted. Game boots but game will not credit up. Test switch works
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#21 3 years ago

Breakthrough on the weird scoring issue. I noticed that the game doesnt need to have credits to advance the bonus. In attract mode with no credits, the start button manually advances the bonus. With a game started and no further credits given, it will score 1800, advance the bonus and light E and F when pressed

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

You've got a short somewhere in the switch matrix.
Sorry I've got to head out and won't be able to respond til tomorrow.

No worries. I made another thread about the switch problems here (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-lost-world-switch-matrix-problems#post-6083874) if anyone wants to chime in. Figure I should keep these problems separate

I checked pin 19 on Player 1, 2 and the credit display. Player 1's I accidentally bent out of shape when pulling out so it got repinned and clicked back in the same housing. Others looked fine, but still having display issues. Thinking it could be a problem with the display connectors, because the problems persist no matter the amount of displays connected, or the displays' locations. I feel like I'm really down in the weeds here, tried so many things already. That, or it could be a silly thing I missed... who knows

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Those are 25V program chips.
With the machine OFF, multi-meter set on resistance, black meter lead connected to ground, how much resistance do you measure with the red meter lead at pins 16, 17, 18 and 19 of player display #1, player display #3 and the credit display?

Player 1 (in descending order):
3.41k
3.34k
3.31k
3.3k

Player 3:
3.35k
3.3k
3.26k
3.26k

Credit:
3.33k
3.27k
3.23k
3.25k

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The readings look consistent.
Have you tried swapping U10 and U11 around? They are both the same chip. Maybe the internal pull down transistor inside the U10 PIA output is weak.
BTW since the problem occurs after 10 or so minutes have you tried hitting some components with freeze spray?

Tried swapping U10 and U11, problem is still there. Something I did notice is that recently, player 3 and credit have been stable. Player 1 2 4 all go like this- 0, 0, 2, 3, 4, 4, 6, 7, 8, 8, with intermitten glitching between numbers (like if its supposed to display 1, itll flicker between 0 and 1). Doesnt matter how many displays are plugged in, or if I swap the displays

I dont have freeze spray, or a compressed air can I can use upside down. Tried an ice cube in a bag and didnt get any changes. Any particular areas you would suggest I test?

#29 3 years ago

Tried changing the 40 pin socket of U10 and now the game wont boot

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