(Topic ID: 277366)

Bally Knockout - Questions of Double Bonus

By MattV

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 9 posts
  • 2 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by MattV
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

There is a lot of great data on these forums and I've been a "lurker" for a couple of years. I recently refinished a Bally Knockout (see before and after pictures below) that was pretty beat up. It required total painting on the outside and playfield as well as other internal repairs - but it's 100% working. It took a lot of time and effort and it was my first Bally (I've refinished a Williams Big Ben from scratch also).

But I have a question for fellow Knockout Owners.

When the double bonus is engaged and the ball lands in the advance bonus 3 hole, does the double bonus stay engaged throughout the ball cycle? On my machine it can easily disengage anytime that it goes through the twirly diamonds (not sure what they are called) or the center alley.

Thanks
Matt

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#2 3 years ago

Hi Matt
welcome to pinside. Are the pictures in Your post-1 "before" and "after" ? If Yes: You did a great job.
The problem with "Double Bonus" - Unfortunatel ipdb does not have the schematics to Knockout - https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1392
I did a search here in pinside and found topics showing parts of the schematics
- here a good part from the beginning: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-knockout-will-not-start#post-4218165 (readable to 13,14,15). Here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1975-bally-knockout-relay-acting-like-stuck-switch-switch-not-stuck#post-5572298 the third picture is interesting - the guy encircled orange the "coil of Double Bonus Relay" - when the relay gets activated it pulls in and closes its Self-Hold-Switch (in the schematics called "Double Bonus Relay (switch)" AND switch on Bonus-Zero-Relay (closed when this relay is non-pulling) helps staying pulled-in. I take from this: "Double-Bonus-Relay stays pulling until the Bonus is counted down reaching Zero (which makes the Bonus-Zero-Relay to pull-in).
So You should inspect these two switches (Self-Hold-Switch*** on the Double-Bonus-Relay --- Switch on Bonus-Zero-Relay) (((and also check "Does the Bonus-Zero-Relay faulty pull-in))).
Self-Hold-Switch*** - such switches are easy to be found - a short wire runs from "solderlug on coil on relay" to "(Normally Open) Switch on the relay".

Well, other topics / posts I found (having snippets of the schematics):
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-knockout-startup-#post-5093884 and https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-knockout-coin-door-help#post-616097 . Greetings Rolf

#3 3 years ago

Thanks Rolf - yes those are before and after pics of the Bally Knockout. A lot of cleaning, painting and fixing but the back glass was good and after much effort I got all of the mechanics working. I'm retired now and slowing gaining experience.

Taking a look to the Bonus 0 Relay and checking switches this AM. Will let you know what I find.

Thanks for your assistance.

Matt

#4 3 years ago

I checked the switches and they all seem to be operating ok - I've cleaned them, metered them (in both positions). The problem seems to be that when a 10 PT object is engaged (spinner or bumper) it engages the hole unit, which moves the wiper one spot and the double bonus becomes intact.

For other Knockout owners, does the same thing happen with yours? Double bonus disengaging when spinners or 2 bumpers by flippers engaged?

#5 3 years ago

Hi Matt
I am not much of a help - I do not know the pin - ipdb has no schematics, an the pics in ipdb are not so good - here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1392&picno=57514&zoom=1 I try to figure out "how to get the Double Bonus activated" - I do not know ...
See my first JPG - the Center-Lane-Unit "my green A" is in a certain position and the Top Center Lane Relay is pulling and so "my green B" is closed (((I think the ball rolls through that curved way - am I right ?))) --- the Double-Bonus-Relay "my green C" actuates and so closes its Self-Hold-Switch (my green D, a short wire runs from one side of the coil on the relay to switch mounted on the relay) and as the Bonus-Zero-Relay is not actuated, pulling: "my green E switch on the Bonus-Zero-Relay" is closed.
"My green C, D, E" is a conventional "Self-Hold-Circuitry" on a Relay - one of the switches (D, E) no good or the wiring is no good (?).

Where is Your Double-Bonus-Relay monted ? In the Cabinet or in the Backbox or on the Playfield ? Where the Bonus-Zero-Relay ? Can You make the fault happen with the playfield up ? opened backbox ? A friend helping, actuating stuff and YOU watch the Bonus-Zero-Relay ?

Do You have the schematics ? See the second JPG --- not to read it - just to get an idea what I have put together from sources mentioned in post-2 --- see a lot of the schematics is missing, also (see my first JPG) what I have is hard to read --- do You have the schematics ? Greetings Rolf

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#6 3 years ago

Yes on the ball rolling through the curved area.

The double bonus is located in cabinet along with the bonus zero relay. I can put up the playfield and watch them engage and then disengage.

I will rerun the process on Tuesday (out of town today and tomorrow) and then follow up back with you.

Appreciate all of the help.

Matt

#7 3 years ago

Hi Matt
I was feeling anxious, tense the last couple of days - awaiting medical examination, my heart problems - O.K., result of the examination - my heart should function the next 2 to 3 years - maybe surgery at a time - but for the next months I decided not to worry.
To Your Bally Knockout pin (and my snippet of schematics) - thanks for post-6. You SEE the Double-Bonus-Relay engage (when the Center-Lane-Unit is in "right" position (pos-1, -6, -8) - then faulty the relay disengage.
See the snippet - "my green A" - I guess the Unit does not step (within the time of engage - disengage) - but I assume the "my green B, Top-Center-Lane-Relay" engages - then (is entitled to) disengages. Please do this test, please wear rubber gloves - current can kill, ruber gloves hinder current flowing through Your body: First do what You did - watch the Double-Bonus-Relay engage, then disengage - NOW press the armature of the Top-Center-Lane-Relay - keep on pressing - question: As long in time You press - as long the Double-Bonus-Relay stays engaged ?

I would like to use an Jumper-Wire - actually TWO Jumper-Wires - to install them: Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord. One Jumper-Wire is clipped on on a solderlug somewhere - clipped on wire-YELLOW (abundant in the pin, example "Switch on Lock-Relay") - take the other end through the open Coin-Door and let the other end hang loose - not touching metal.
Take the second Jumper-Wire, clip-on at "Self-Hold-Switch on Double-Bonus-Relay, see the short wire running from 'Coil on the relay to switch on the relay' --- yes this switch BUT clip-on on the other blade, solder-lug" - take the other end of the Jumper-Wire through the open Coin-Door an let hang free - not touching metal.
Then plug-in, toggle-on, start a new game - then (wear rubber gloves !) put together permanent the ends of the two Jumper-Wires --- then make "Double-Bonus" - question: Does the Double-Bonus-Relay stays pulling ? Well this is just a test - You can not play this - as the Double-Bonus-Relay by now stays pulling until You take apart the two Jumper-Wires.

I do have Jumper-Wires with "built-in Toggle-Switch" - but for once doing such a test You can do as written above. Greetings Rolf

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#8 3 years ago

I was home a day and now back out as my sister and brother are in town for their annual visit. Will provide and update this weekend. Thanks again Rolf for all of your help. I truly appreciate it!.

Matt

3 weeks later
#9 3 years ago

So sorry for the delay Rolf, my bother and sister were here longer than expected and I've not had time to address the pinball machine but now I'm back to "normal " life.

Some Responses :
As long in time You press - as long the Double-Bonus-Relay stays engaged ? The answer is yes, it stays engaged until I release the rollover relay. It even stays engaged when I manually hit the bumpers which toogles 10 pts and moves the center lane unit disc (which normally turns the double bonus off).

I did the wire trick (see attached photos) and with the wires connected it still jumped out of double bonus anytime the center lane unit disc turned (instigated by 10 pts from bumpers or roll over switches.

I did happen to mess up and my aligator clip was touching the yellow opposite wire on the double bonus relay (self hold switch) and that did of course hold the Double Bonus relay in and 10 pts would not kick it out. But that's what I expected.

Any other potential thoughts? I'll go through the Center Lane Unit again and check all of the wires.

Appreciate all of your help. Back working on this so I'll be much more responsive moving forward.

Thanks
Matt

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